Psychiatry or Psychology?

[blick]

Hi-
I completed a pathology residency about 10 years ago and mostly have worked in the field of medical informatics. I would now like to work in mental health (especially with regards to infertility). What would be the pros and cons of doing a psychiatry residency (assuming I would be admitted) vs. getting a masters in psychology?
I have a 4 year old and would like to see him regularly.
Those of you with spouses/children - do you see them during your psych residencies? Or is it horribly busy?
Thanks.

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[Chimed]

With all due respect to psychologists, I think that in the long run you are far better off going with psychiatry. It gives you the most options both clinically and professionally.

Regarding the demands of a psychiatry residency, a lot depends on how willing you are to move if there is not a good program near you. I say that b/c you can find a wide range in the amount of work hours in a program. If there is not a family friendly program near you and if you are willing to move, you can definetly find a lot of programs that have more or less 8 to 5 hours with minimal call.

Good luck!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I see my kids more than I would like some days...

 

[Anasazi23]

Doing what with infertile people, exactly? Psychiatry might be overkill for you if you want to simply provide supportive therapy, for example.

 

[whopper]

Psychology is the study of all human behavior. From things to office politics, to hand eye coordination times, to mental illness.

Psychiatry is focused on mental illness & you utilize several aspects of your M.D.

This is a tough question and its up to you. I have a degree & psychology & an M.D.

The thing I hated about medschool was I hated those types of science classes where they intentionally try to weed out & fail out several of the students. Medschool & premed classes, at least where I was at--were pretty much this type of education. I hated it, but I stomached it because I ultimately wanted to be a psychiatrist instead of a psychology.

 

[positivepsych]

Psychologists are Doctoral-level health care providers, just like Dentists, Pharmacists, Podatrists, Optometrists, etc.

You can't practice with a master's degree in psychology. You may with a master's level degree in social work or marriage & family therapy, but that doesn't make you a psychologist, and has a different intended scope of practice.

As posted earlier, it depends on what you want to do exactly. There is pretty good research on psychosocial factors and infertility (e.g. stress being a major factor in infertility problems). It seems that stress management would be an important part of such treatment, and would thus be a useful party of psychotherapy for infertility issues. I have no idea what medication options there are for infertility, or if that falls into more of an OB/GYN's scope of practice than a psychiatrist's.

Perhaps the more important question is if you really want to or can handle the rigorous and training that involved in both paths, which are both demanding, but in very different ways.

 

[whopper]

You can practice with a masters in psychology in more limited settings than a Ph.D. You also need to follow a track in psychological education that is specific to the clinical setting.

My biggest frustration with going to medschool was that an overwhelming amount of data is brutally smashed into your brain--and a lot of it doesn't seem relevant to psychiatry.

You may learn that some of that data--later on was relevant, in hindsight. Its frustrating though, going from a psychology degree to studying histology.

 

[PsychMD2100]

Psychologists are Doctoral-level health care providers, just like Dentists, Pharmacists, Podatrists, Optometrists, etc.

You can't practice with a master's degree in psychology. You may with a master's level degree in social work or marriage & family therapy, but that doesn't make you a psychologist, and has a different intended scope of practice.

Perhaps the more important question is if you really want to or can handle the rigorous and training that involved in both paths, which are both demanding, but in very different ways.

Despite the Doctoral-level claim, psychologists are not physicians. Psychiatrists are.

On the contrary, in my state and in many others, you can have a bachelor's degree and call yourself a psychologist. For instance, I know a 23-year-old "Psychologist" who just graduated from college and works for the school district.

I'm not sure if I'd call psychology training rigorous. The more important question is do you want to be limited in your practice scope? If you want to be limited, do psychology. If you don't want any restrictions, then do psychiatry.

 

[toby jones]

> in my state and in many others, you can have a bachelor's degree and call yourself a psychologist.

Are you sure about that? To the best of my knowledge "psychologist" is a trade-marked terms and there are severe restrictions on who can claim to be one just like "medical doctor" is a trade-marked term and there are severe restrictions on who can claim to be one.

> I'm not sure if I'd call psychology training rigorous.

Depends on the psychology training you get. I'm sure a similar thing goes on with medicine - some schools train you better than others.

> If you don't want any restrictions, then do psychiatry.

I'm not at all sure about that... Psychology isn't second rate psychiatry psychology is DIFFERENT from psychiatry. Different training. Different focus. Psychologists are trained and qualified to do some things that psychiatrists are not (psychometrics springs to mind) and psychiatryists are trained and qualified to do some things that psychologists are not (medication springs to mind).

It depends on what it is that you want to do... You might be better off to become a councellor (which is similarly a trademarked term with restrictions on who can use it in North America at any rate). Not sure...

 

[whopper]

Ouch, I hope we're not causing more confusion than clarity.

I'd consider these 2 factors
1) The pay--psychiatry is clearly more & with more job security (all things being equal--average psychiatrist vs average clinical psychologist). However psychiatry requires very rigorous & expensive & lengthy training-often times more so than psychology.

Is Psychology training rigorous? Rigorous is relative. Someone for example working 60 hrs a week is rigorous for a normal person, a wimp by some standards of medicine. Psychology vs Psychiatry: I'd say not as much as psychiatry (again all things being equal, avg psychiatrist vs avg psychologist). You will have to learn things like surgery where you're going to work about 80 if not more hrs per week during that rotation.

2) is it what you want to learn? Remember, to be a psychiatrist--you're going to learn a lot of non-psychiatric/psychological stuff. E.g. surgery, ob-gyn, pediatrics, histology yada yada yada.

This is very intense education. It requires different thinking that psychologists are often used to processing.

To all of our M.D./D.O. colleagues-yes psychology may be less rigorous in general, but depending on the program, and how far the person takes it, it can too be just as much intense as medicine.

I'm not at all sure about that... Psychology isn't second rate psychiatry psychology is DIFFERENT from psychiatry. Different training. Different focus. Psychologists are trained and qualified to do some things that psychiatrists are not (psychometrics springs to mind)

Absolutely. Psychologists are trained in things that are often only mentioned to us--e.g. use & administration of the MMPI, among several other scales.

I have learned plenty of things in psychology that are not taught in psychiary--because several of those things do not directly deal with mental illness: e.g. sensory & perception, organizational/industrial psychology, environmental psychology, developmental psychology. Even things that do directly correlate with mental illness unfortunately are not the norm to be taught in psychiatry other than being mentioned once in awhile, and when psychiatrists want this therapy for their patients often refer to psychologists--.e.g. using biofeedback, exposure therapy, flooding etc.

Again (and I've gotten into this trap before in past posts), that does not mean psychiatrists shouldn't explore these things, learn about & use them. Just that several psychiatry programs do not teach these things, and managed care has created a system that pushes us to refer.

 

[PsychMD2100]

>Are you sure about that? To the best of my knowledge "psychologist" is a trade-marked terms and there are severe restrictions on who can claim to be one just like "medical doctor" is a trade-marked term and there are severe restrictions on who can claim to be one.

I'm positive about this. There was even a person with an associate's degree with many years of experience that was a "Psychologist" at a local institution. Contrary to what you believe, "psychologist" is not a protected term. Check with your state regulatory agency.

 

[Anasazi23]

I'll just remind everyone to try and keep it civil, as these threads often turn into something more hostile.

I must say, and I admit this is slightly off topic, but the protected 'psychologist' term is something that seems to apply to the books to some degree. Many of the master's level clinicians (LCSWs, MSWs) at the prison, for example, refer to themselves as master's level psychologists. I know there's a difference in the training and whatnot, but this seems to have settled into the popular vernacular, and will likely not go away.

 

[whopper]

The 2 APA's--Psychology & Psychiatry have differing levels of professional practice.

Psychology is the study of all human behavior. A Psychologist for example could be the guy who designs a dashboard for a car company--because this psychologist has specialized in ergonomics.

A Clinical Psychologist is a psychologist who has specialized in specific areas of psychology that relate to diagnosing & treating mental illness.

The American Psychological Association has differing standards of care & practice than the A-Psychiatric-Association. One of my attendings once told me the specific differences & said the psychological association is much looser than the psychiatric, mostly because psychology is the study of all human behavior, not just treating mental illness.

I haven't carefully scrutinized the American Psychological Association's standards. I'm wondering what they think about Dr. Laura--who IMHO should be denounced.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Despite the Doctoral-level claim, psychologists are not physicians. Psychiatrists are.

On the contrary, in my state and in many others, you can have a bachelor's degree and call yourself a psychologist. For instance, I know a 23-year-old "Psychologist" who just graduated from college and works for the school district.

Not this crap again.....citation please? I asked you about this in another thread, but you conveniently never responded....

Btw...it is a protected term, but I'd love to see your 'evidence'.

I'll just remind everyone to try and keep it civil, as these threads often turn into something more hostile.

I must say, and I admit this is slightly off topic, but the protected 'psychologist' term is something that seems to apply to the books to some degree. Many of the master's level clinicians (LCSWs, MSWs) at the prison, for example, refer to themselves as master's level psychologists. I know there's a difference in the training and whatnot, but this seems to have settled into the popular vernacular, and will likely not go away.

A person who works in the office can give themselves the title of CEO, but that doesn't mean that they are ALLOWED to call themselves that....

As for which to go into:

A psychiatrist is a physician first....so you need to decide if you want to be a physician who specializes in psychiatry. A clinical psychologist is a very different animal in that the rigors reside more in the stats and research areas. There is plenty of theory and applied work, but what makes it difficult are the research requirements in addition to the clinical training. The trained originally stemmed from philosophy (though it is on a path of convergence with biology), while medicine was an applied skill/trade. Both have academic rigors, but in different areas.

There is also a supply/demand issue to consider. Acceptance rates for decent programs hover around 4-5%, with top programs being 1-2%.....so there is a far greater supply of applicants than there are spots. Getting into a decent clinical program requires a couple years of research, stellar grades, published articles and/or major conference presentations, etc. MA/MS programs have less rigorous standards and focuses on the applied clinical work and doesn't much deal with research, stats, etc.

Psychology and Psychiatry have crossover in that they deal with the mentally ill, but treatment is far different, as is the other 90% of the job.

-t

 

[positivepsych]

I'd just like to point out that PsychMD2100 has a track record of bashing on psychology as being "lesser" than psychiatry, and obviously has a superiority complex. He obviously feels threatened by psychologists, and thus attacks them on this board. He also makes assertions without backing them up with data.

I just looked up the licensure requirements for California:

"2. EDUCATIONAL REQUIREMENTS
a. Named Degrees

Section 2914 of the Business and Professions Code provides that individuals who possess an earned doctorate degree in psychology, educational psychology, education with a field of specialization in counseling psychology or education with a field of specialization in educational psychology from an approved or accredited educational institution meet the educational requirements for licensure."

This thread has devolved into a useless psychology vs. psychiatry arguement. I have tremendous respect for the field of psychiatry, and what psychiatrists do. We both are players in the mental health care field, we just play different roles (generally speaking, we mostly do talk therapy, and psychiatrists mostly prescribe medication). Unfortunately, that sort of respect does not seem to be mutual by some members of this board. Where is the love?

Psychologists get very rigorous training in psychotherapy, which (most) psychiatrists do not unless they seek it out themselves. That doesn't make psychology "better," its just a different focus. On the other hand, we have little training in medical matters and psychopharamcology, which doesn't make psychiatry "better" again, it's just a different focus. It's silly to look at things in such a black-and-white, good vs. bad, manner, when both fields are set up to provide very different training.

However, I do want to state that psychologists' training is also rigorous and intense, just in a different way. Psychologists get very rigorous academic training in psychological theory (2-3 years of coursework), and need at least 3,000 clinical hours of face-to-face therapy (and usually much more) over the course of 4-8 years (including things such as post-doctoral fellowships), which is generally much more than any other mental-health providers. This is our forte.

I was simply trying to state that the issue is not which field is "better," but which is a better field for you given your individual capabilities and interests in what you want to do as a job. That's the bottom-line.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Good post......positivepsych.

Now to get back on topic.

Hi-
I completed a pathology residency about 10 years ago and mostly have worked in the field of medical informatics. I would now like to work in mental health (especially with regards to infertility). What would be the pros and cons of doing a psychiatry residency (assuming I would be admitted) vs. getting a masters in psychology?
I have a 4 year old and would like to see him regularly.
Those of you with spouses/children - do you see them during your psych residencies? Or is it horribly busy?
Thanks.

I think it comes down to your career goals:

Therapy/counseling: MS / MA
Helping couples/families adjust to adopting, change in family dynamics, etc
Coping with infertility issues

Infertility counseling: OB
Examine medical issues of infertility with the couple
Work with couples on improving their chances to conceive

-t

 

[Anasazi23]

A person who works in the office can give themselves the title of CEO, but that doesn't mean that they are ALLOWED to call themselves that....

Right. And what will anyone really do about this? I suppose one could make a stink and call some sort of board. This would require sticking one's neck out, however. I can relate: I continue to insist that all here in the outpatient clinic refer to me as 'The Illustrious and eminatable Anasazi, Conquerer of Worlds' but sadly, they refuse to do so.

As for which to go into:

A psychiatrist is a physician first....so you need to decide if you want to be a physician who specializes in psychiatry. A clinical psychologist is a very different animal in that the rigors reside more in the stats and research areas. There is plenty of theory and applied work, but what makes it difficult are the research requirements in addition to the clinical training.

There is also a supply/demand issue to consider. Acceptance rates for decent programs hover around 4-5%, and there is a far greater supply of applicants than there are spots. Getting into a decent clinical program requires a couple years of research, stellar grades, etc.

Both have crossover in that they deal with the mentally ill, but treatment is far different, as is the other 90% of the job.

-t

I think that's a good way to put it. They're in many ways, more different, than similar.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Right. And what will anyone really do about this? I suppose one could make a stink and call some sort of board. This would require sticking one's neck out, however. I can relate: I continue to insist that all here in the outpatient clinic refer to me as 'The Illustrious and eminatable Anasazi, Conquerer of Worlds' but sadly, they refuse to do so.

Well, hold out hope....maybe you can win some people over. Maybe.

-t

 

[LM02]

I haven't carefully scrutinized the American Psychological Association's standards. I'm wondering what they think about Dr. Laura--who IMHO should be denounced.

I promised myself I wasn't going to post in this thread (been there, done that). But I couldn't help but answer this question. Dr. Laura has a PhD in physiology. She's not a psychologist - but I guess anyone can go on TV/the radio and dole out advice.

And psychologists have major beef with her after a particularly troublesome situation in which she attempted to interpret some research data - did so quite poorly - and incited a major public health battle on capitol hill having to do with resiliency following trauma.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I promised myself I wasn't going to post in this thread (been there, done that). But I couldn't help but answer this question. Dr. Laura has a PhD in physiology. She's not a psychologist - but I guess anyone can go on TV/the radio and dole out advice.

And psychologists have major beef with her after a particularly troublesome situation in which she attempted to interpret some research data - did so quite poorly - and incited a major public health battle on capitol hill having to do with resiliency following trauma.

We don't want her!

We don't want Dr. Phil either.....who gave up his license long ago, and was known for being a jury/forensic consultant, which is a FAR FAR cry from what he is "known" for.

-t

 

[PsychMD2100]

Not this crap again.....citation please? I asked you about this in another thread, but you conveniently never responded....

Btw...it is a protected term, but I'd love to see your 'evidence'.

-t

Anasazi,

Please note that I was not the one to start using terms such as "crap". I'm making an attempt to keep this civil.

Therapist 4 Change,

Be careful about what you ask for. You just might get it and be proven wrong.
You asked for 'evidence' and, in response, I'd like to cite for you the New York State "exemptions" for use of the "protected title" of "psychologist" at the following link: http://www.op.nysed.gov/psych-licques.htm

I've cut and pasted this directly from the above-cited link from the FAQ section of the Psychology Division of the New York State Office of the Professions:

"What are the exemptions where the use of the title and the practice of psychology are permitted?

The activities, services, and use of the title of psychologist, or any derivation thereof, on the part of a person employed by a federal, state, county or municipal agency, or other political subdivision, or a chartered elementary or secondary school or degree-granting educational institution insofar as such activities and services are a part of the duties of the salaried position."

As you can see, these exemptions to protection of the title "psychologist" are quite numerous. These exemptions include essentially any person working for "federal, state, county or municipal agency" institutions. It's no surprise that there are people with associate's degrees working as "psychologists". It's also important to remember that New York state is not alone. I commend California for their rigor but, unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Despite the rhetoric of Therapist 4 Change and positivepsych, I don't see how correcting factual inaccuracies constitutes a "bashing" of psychology. It is a fact that individuals with very little training can lawfully (see above) call themselves a "psychologist".

 

[Shalom77]

2) is it what you want to learn? Remember, to be a psychiatrist--you're going to learn a lot of non-psychiatric/psychological stuff. E.g. surgery, ob-gyn, pediatrics, histology yada yada yada.

If the OP has done a pathology residency (already requires an MD) - then presumably s/he's already done all that already.

I would approach it differently. As someone with an MD - I think a psychiatry residency would be a more natural path. (and likely cheaper - since you can be paid as a resident - although already having done a residency can be a financial issue for some programs vs. a PhD in which financial assistance can be variable and never as good as a resident.) A psych residency (probably) allows you the widest range of practice options. You just need to find a program that is a good match for the skills you want to gain in residency.

If you are particularly interested in infertility - I would look at psych programs at places where they also have a strong infertility treatment center. It may be worth writing them and seeing if you would be an eligible candidate and if they allow elective time to do a rotation to learn about infertility counseling. (Note: A quick google search identified University of Florida as a program with someone with interests in infertility counseling on staff. http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache... infertility counseling training psychiatrist ) I'm sure there are others.

Perhaps contacting a someone who does infertility counseling might also give you more applicable advice than the advice on this board.

I'd look at what is the most feasible path - and then focus on how you can learn what you want to within that path. It doesn't really matter what the "average" psychiatrist or psychologist's skills are in the area - to some extent you can shape and focus your own education and learn what you need to. (Of course you have to be interested enough in all the other required aspects of the training to get through it.)

edit in: oops, i missed the part about looking for a masters. In any case I still think talking to someone in the field of infertility counseling is a good idea - can give you a better sense of the job market - what employers are looking for etc. I'm not sure about MD w/ master's - may have an overqualified/underqualified problem. ie too expensive to be hired at the same level as someone with a master's, not qualified to be hired at the level of a psychiatrist/PhD psychologist.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It's no surprise that there are people with associate's degrees working as "psychologists".

I like that leap in assumption you made.

It is a fact that individuals with very little training can lawfully (see above) call themselves a "psychologist".

You selectively 'forgot' to put the major disclaimer at the top of the page:

These Questions and Answers are offered as a matter of general guidelines and do not carry the force of law. Specific questions should be directed to the actual statutory or regulatory language.

Uhm...okay chief.

I'm glad you can pick and choose what you care to acknowledge. I hope you don't choose to practice like this, because THAT would be unlawful.

-t

 

[Shalom77]

I like that leap in assumption you made.


You selectively 'forgot' to put the major disclaimer at the top of the page:


Uhm...okay chief.

I'm glad you can pick and choose what you care to acknowledge. I hope you don't choose to practice like this, because THAT would be unlawful.

-t

Actually the law states:

<H4>&#167;7605. Exempt persons.

Nothing in this article shall be construed to affect or prevent:

1. The activities, services, and use of the title of psychologist, or any derivation thereof, on the part of a person in the employ of a federal, state, county or municipal agency, or other political subdivision, or a chartered elementary or secondary school or degree-granting educational institution insofar as such activities and services are a part of the duties of his salaried position.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/article153.htm

</H4>

So basically if you are in NY and see a "psychologist" who is employed by a government agency or educational institution, there is no quarantee that that person has a PhD. Not surprising that the explanation agrees perfectly with the law.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Okay, so person beware....ask when looking for psychological services in NY.

Okay...back to the topic at hand.

-t

 

[whopper]

Dr. Laura has a PhD in physiology. She's not a psychologist

I apologize for thinking she was a psychologist! Actually her not being a psychologist explains a lot of why she's full of baloney.

Despite the Doctoral-level claim, psychologists are not physicians. Psychiatrists are.

I've never seen a Ph.D. or Psy.D. psychologist claim to be a physician. Nor have I ever seen a Ph.D. in physics, philosophy or any field other than an M.D. or D.O. claim to be a physician, yet they have validly earned their title of doctor.

Only person I can think of that gave a rather bogus "Dr." title to his name was a televangelist who recently died (and I will leave out his name to keep this civil) that only had honorary doctorates for giving commencement speeches, and none of them were from an accredited institution--but despite that several news & political groups called him "Dr."

 

[PsychMD2100]

Actually the law states:

</H4>

So basically if you are in NY and see a "psychologist" who is employed by a government agency or educational institution, there is no quarantee that that person has a PhD. Not surprising that the explanation agrees perfectly with the law.

Thanks Shalom77,

I appreciate that somebody isn't going to let Therapist4Change wiggle out of this one.

It's clear that Therapist4Change just got his question answered. He asked for sources and he got them. Speaking of a "leap in assumption", I don't see how accurately interpreting the New York State practice guidelines reflects badly upon my ability to practice medicine.

Therapist4Change is simply trying to attack the person when he can no longer attack the argument.

Anasazi, you'll have to keep an eye on Therapist4Change. In this thread, it seems like he's resorting to unfounded attacks on my ability to practice medicine after losing the argument in a most embarassing way.

 

[positivepsych]

Yes, you are bashing psychology by making two exaggerated claims.

1) "Despite the Doctoral-level claim, psychologists are not physicians." The term "doctor" has been used by PhDs for hundreds of years before physicians. In fact, physicians only started using it recently in order to differentiate themselves from surgeons (e.g. Columbia's college of physicians and surgeons). They decided to borrow the term "doctor" from PhDs because it was really prestigious.
Do you also get insecure when dentists, optometrists, pharmacists, and academics use the title Dr.? Lose the ego buddy, because you're making your colleagues look bad.

2) You don't see anyone going around saying "beware of physicians," because there are foreign medical grads in the US with M.S. degrees because they skipped college, graduated from India's med school equivalent, and passed the boards here. These are the exceptions, not the rule. You're trying to insult a profession by talking about freak exceptions. This thread is not about psychology vs. psychiatry, its about one OP's question (who's long since disappeared and might've been a troll) about what's the right fit for him/her. No need to get high and mighty, and make ridiculous arguments that don't apply to 99% of practioners.

Furthermore, the exemptions quote that you pasted is actually vague, and makes no indication of how and when exemptions are used in the real world. If you look at the next paragraph, even advanced doctoral-level students in psychology are not allowed to used the term psychologist, and must use "intern" or "trainee" even though they have master's degrees.

I challenge you to find someone who claims to be a "licensed psychologist" using PsychologyToday.com's therapist listings, and only has a bachelor's degree. I just ran a search for a Manhattan zip code using "psychologist" as a search parameter, and all had PhDs/PsyDs.

You can safely assume, even in New York, that 99% of licensed psychologists have a doctoral degree. If you're really paranoid, just ask. In fact, that's the default state law:

http://www.nyspa.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=18#qualifications

What are the qualifications of a licensed psychologist?
A doctorate in psychology; two years of supervised training in a specialty and passing the New York State examination for licensure.

This thread has lost its civility and gone off topic, but I thought I'd put that last post in to defend exaggerated mischaracterizations. Anasazi, please shut this down.

 

[silas2642]

Hi-
I completed a pathology residency about 10 years ago and mostly have worked in the field of medical informatics. I would now like to work in mental health (especially with regards to infertility). What would be the pros and cons of doing a psychiatry residency (assuming I would be admitted) vs. getting a masters in psychology?
I have a 4 year old and would like to see him regularly.
Those of you with spouses/children - do you see them during your psych residencies? Or is it horribly busy?
Thanks.

Wow. So before this thread gets closed, and I'm assuming it will soon because it has quickly gotten turned into a psychologists vs. psychiatrists bashing party, I would say go for the psych residency. The reason I'm saying this is because you already have the medical degree, psych isn't that hard to match into, having the MD/DO behind your name will open more doors for you in terms of job opportunities in the future, and you going to have fewer opportunities and earn less money if you go for a masters in psychology. If you choose to pursue a PhD in psychology-- that kind of doesn't make sense either. You were trained in the medical model already, you know your drugs, you could be actually making money during your training, and although I'm biased, I think that you might have more options/opportunities as a physician on the job market vs. a psychologist. Good luck with our decision!

 

[PsychMD2100]

Yes, you are bashing psychology by making two exaggerated claims.

1) "Despite the Doctoral-level claim, psychologists are not physicians." The term "doctor" has been used by PhDs for hundreds of years before physicians. In fact, physicians only started using it recently in order to differentiate themselves from surgeons (e.g. Columbia's college of physicians and surgeons). They decided to borrow the term "doctor" from PhDs because it was really prestigious.
Do you also get insecure when dentists, optometrists, pharmacists, and academics use the title Dr.? Lose the ego buddy, because you're making your colleagues look bad.

2) You don't see anyone going around saying "beware of physicians," because there are foreign medical grads in the US with M.S. degrees because they skipped college, graduated from India's med school equivalent, and passed the boards here. These are the exceptions, not the rule. You're trying to insult a profession by talking about freak exceptions. This thread is not about psychology vs. psychiatry, its about one OP's question (who's long since disappeared and might've been a troll) about what's the right fit for him/her. No need to get high and mighty, and make ridiculous arguments that don't apply to 99% of practioners.

Furthermore, the exemptions quote that you pasted is actually vague, and makes no indication of how and when exemptions are used in the real world. If you look at the next paragraph, even advanced doctoral-level students in psychology are not allowed to used the term psychologist, and must use "intern" or "trainee" even though they have master's degrees.

I challenge you to find someone who claims to be a "licensed psychologist" using PsychologyToday.com's therapist listings, and only has a bachelor's degree. I just ran a search for a Manhattan zip code using "psychologist" as a search parameter, and all had PhDs/PsyDs.

You can safely assume, even in New York, that 99% of licensed psychologists have a doctoral degree. If you're really paranoid, just ask. In fact, that's the default state law:

http://www.nyspa.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=18#qualifications



This thread has lost its civility and gone off topic, but I thought I'd put that last post in to defend exaggerated mischaracterizations. Anasazi, please shut this down.

Anasazi, this thread does not need to be shut down. positivepsych and Therapist4Change simply need to be called to order. Any loss of civility can be directly attributed to these 2 individuals.

positivepsych, having quite a bit of familiarity with Columbia University, I don't see how the title of "Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons" supports your claim that PhDs pre-date physicians. Physicians have existed back into antiquity. Hippocrates lived in the 4th century BC. Modern universities did not appear until the Middle Ages (AD, mind you). If anything, it is PhDs who are trading on the names of physicians, commonly referred to as "doctors." It's clear that you need to review your world history.

Speaking of "exaggerated claims," where did you get your data for your two "99%" citations in your last post?

Under New York State Law, since I am part of an educational institution, I can lawfully refer to myself as a "psychologist". And yes, I do have a license. On the other hand, a psychologist calling him/herself a psychiatrist or a physician faces Class E Felony Charges.

Getting back to the OP, do psychiatry. Rather than worry about the protection of your title, you can practice in mental health without restriction. silas has it right pointing out the far greater range of opportunities (earnings, demand, privileges) as a psychiatrist. You can also subspecialize in fertility health. Feel free to private message me if you have questions.

 

[TheWowEffect]

This thread has lost its civility and gone off topic, but I thought I’d put that last post in to defend exaggerated mischaracterizations. Anasazi, please shut this down.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.........I'll be the last one to post in this thread.

I love the internet

 

[positivepsych]

You're wrong. And you need a history lesson.

I never said PhDs predate physicians. I said that the use of the title Doctor was used by PhDs well before physicians, and that physicans borrowed the title from PhDs:

Doctor (gen.: doctoris) means teacher in Latin and is a contraction of the Greek &#948;&#953;&#948;&#940;&#954;&#964;&#969;&#961;, didakt&#333;r, teacher, from the verb &#948;&#953;&#948;&#940;&#963;&#954;&#949;&#953;&#957;, didaskein, to teach. It has been used continuously as an honored academic title for over a millennium in Europe, where it dates back to the rise of the university. This use spread to the Americas, former European colonies, and is now prevalent in most of the world. As a prefix &#8212; abbreviated "Dr"&#8212; its primary designation is a person who has obtained a doctorate (that is, a doctoral degree), which is the highest rank of academic degree awardable.

You've basically lost all your credibility right there.

Under New York State Law, since I am part of an educational institution, I can lawfully refer to myself as a "psychologist".

You're interpreting this incorrectly. Simply anyone affiliated with an educational institution cannot call themselves a psychologist. So a janitor at a high school could claim they're a psychologist just because they're "affiliated?" No!

The only people who would meet this exemption are practicing school psychologists who have been "grandfathered in," by being granted an exemption to having a doctoral degree under old laws because they got their degrees a while ago. Go e-mail the NY State licensure board about this claim, and you'll see that you're wrong. Until you get proof of this, or show me a a licensed clinical psychologist uses this title publicly and has a bachelor's degree, stop making this claim that anyone can use the title.

 

[Chimed]

This discussion about the technical term of psychologist is way off topic of the OP and is, quite frankly, starting to sound very petty. I mean, who really cares?

To the OP, you really need to think about what you want to do in mental health and do a lot of research. You need to talk to psychiatrists, master level counselors, and PhD psychologists. When I was in undergrad, I seriously debated about whether to pursue an MD or PhD in clinical psychology. I have the utmost respect for psychologists, but just felt that going with an MD would give me the most options professionally. You'll have to clarify what you really want to do and find out the best road to get there that does not limit your options ten years down the road.

 

[billypilgrim37]

All right, you can debate psychiatry and psychology all you want, but the latin and greek are mine. Not yours!

The doctor title does, yes, come form the latin for teacher. But the "title" came to us from the French church back about 13-14th c.

So there!

 

[PsychMD2100]

You're wrong. And you need a history lesson.

I never said PhDs predate physicians. I said that the use of the title Doctor was used by PhDs well before physicians, and that physicans borrowed the title from PhDs:

You've basically lost all your credibility right there.

.

positivepsych,

How does your cut and pasted reference demonstrate that physicians borrowed the title "Doctor" from PhDs? It says nowhere in your citation that physicians borrowed the title "Doctor" from PhDs. Each post you make is an even more off balance tirade than the last.

I still have my credibility and my medical license. Speaking of credibility, where did you find your cut and pasted entry? It's interesting that you didn't cite your source. Well, I found your cut and pasted entry came from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_%28title)

If you're going to use sources, you need to use something with a little more respectability than an open-source write-it-yourself internet site like Wikipedia. While it's convenient to look things up, you're not going to sway any REAL doctors with that kind of evidence. Any kid in junior high can do what you just did, but you still haven't advanced your argument one bit.

To the OP, do psychiatry. You've got options that positivepsych could never dream of having. Feel free to private message me. I've got some information that may be useful to you.

 

[Anasazi23]

Closing.