Psychiatry research?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ricepudding16

Full Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2021
Messages
11
Reaction score
6
Hello everyone. I am an incoming MD/PhD student. Initially I was interested in becoming an infectious disease clinician and doing virology research, which match up nicely. However, I have become very interested in psychiatry. Now I am stuck, because I don't know what to do my PhD in? What would match up nicely with psychiatry?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Hello everyone. I am an incoming MD/PhD student. Initially I was interested in becoming an infectious disease clinician and doing virology research, which match up nicely. However, I have become very interested in psychiatry. Now I am stuck, because I don't know what to do my PhD in? What would match up nicely with psychiatry?
I would say do a PhD in something you enjoy on its own, it doesn't have to match up with what field you end up going into. The winds may change and you may choose something entirely different from Psych or Inf Dis.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
PhD in Clinical Psych, otherwise neurobiology/neuroscience/psychopharm
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
PhD in Clinical Psych, otherwise neurobiology/neuroscience/psychopharm
a) is there even a program where this is an option? Clinical psych NOT experimental psych.

b) logistically how would this even work? I know with some (many) MD/PhD programs it can shorten the course (slightly) v. pursuing each degree separately but I can’t foresee of how this would be possible with clinical psych where many non degree-mill programs actually take closer to 5 years to complete and the lack of overlap between clinical psych and med school curriculums. Also, even though you’ve completed your degree coursework, many programs won’t give you your PhD until after you’ve completed your internship which is basically a 1 year residency and also goes through a process similar to the Match. So not only does that add yet an extra year, you’d likely face the possibility of moving elsewhere just for 1 year after spending the better part of a decade in one city only to have to move back to complete the last 2 years of med school. What if your interest was clinical neuropsychology? That adds yet an additional year to all of this. Makes absolutely no sense imho, and anyone I’ve encountered (which is a small but fair number) who has had a PhD in clinical psychology and an MD was a career changer that earned their PhD first and went back a few years later for their MD.

To OP’s question - pick whatever you’re genuinely interested in as field for your PhD. It’s possible find a link/overlap between psychiatry and most fields offered in MD/PhD programs, though some are more obvious than others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
a) is there even a program where this is an option? Clinical psych NOT experimental psych.

b) logistically how would this even work? I know with some (many) MD/PhD programs it can shorten the course (slightly) v. pursuing each degree separately but I can’t foresee of how this would be possible with clinical psych where many non degree-mill programs actually take closer to 5 years to complete and the lack of overlap between clinical psych and med school curriculums. Also, even though you’ve completed your degree coursework, many programs won’t give you your PhD until after you’ve completed your internship which is basically a 1 year residency and also goes through a process similar to the Match. So not only does that add yet an extra year, you’d likely face the possibility of moving elsewhere just for 1 year after spending the better part of a decade in one city only to have to move back to complete the last 2 years of med school. What if your interest was clinical neuropsychology? That adds yet an additional year to all of this. Makes absolutely no sense imho, and anyone I’ve encountered (which is a small but fair number) who has had a PhD in clinical psychology and an MD was a career changer that earned their PhD first and went back a few years later for their MD.

To OP’s question - pick whatever you’re genuinely interested in as field for your PhD. It’s possible find a link/overlap between psychiatry and most fields offered in MD/PhD programs, though some are more obvious than others.
I mean if the university has a PhD in clinical psych they may work something out for him, even if OP won’t be able to become a licensed psychologist; but otherwise no, I’m not aware of any programs.
 
PhD in Clinical Psych, otherwise neurobiology/neuroscience/psychopharm
Isn't this kind of redundant though if I become a psychiatrist? What would be the benefit of becoming a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
a) is there even a program where this is an option? Clinical psych NOT experimental psych.

b) logistically how would this even work? I know with some (many) MD/PhD programs it can shorten the course (slightly) v. pursuing each degree separately but I can’t foresee of how this would be possible with clinical psych where many non degree-mill programs actually take closer to 5 years to complete and the lack of overlap between clinical psych and med school curriculums. Also, even though you’ve completed your degree coursework, many programs won’t give you your PhD until after you’ve completed your internship which is basically a 1 year residency and also goes through a process similar to the Match. So not only does that add yet an extra year, you’d likely face the possibility of moving elsewhere just for 1 year after spending the better part of a decade in one city only to have to move back to complete the last 2 years of med school. What if your interest was clinical neuropsychology? That adds yet an additional year to all of this. Makes absolutely no sense imho, and anyone I’ve encountered (which is a small but fair number) who has had a PhD in clinical psychology and an MD was a career changer that earned their PhD first and went back a few years later for their MD.

To OP’s question - pick whatever you’re genuinely interested in as field for your PhD. It’s possible find a link/overlap between psychiatry and most fields offered in MD/PhD programs, though some are more obvious than others.
Do you have any ideas?
 
Isn't this kind of redundant though if I become a psychiatrist? What would be the benefit of becoming a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist?

Well no the training of clinical psychologists is quite different; I am not sure what the benefit of a PhD would really be to a psychiatrist regardless of the field it is in
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Isn't this kind of redundant though if I become a psychiatrist? What would be the benefit of becoming a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist?
I do think it would be redundant. If you want to do phd in psychology keeping it research focused would be the most useful I think - my understanding of clinical psych programs is that their clinical focus would have some redundancy with the psychiatry training and that’s not really what the PhD part of an MD/PhD is meant for
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do you have any ideas?
The point of MD/PhD is for people who want a research career so I would focus on what you’re interested in (broadly) from a research/PhD perspective first and then how that relates to whatever specialty/field you’re interested in second v. the other way around. You can honestly make a connection between nearly any field from a PhD/basic science standpoint and psychiatry but at this juncture that will be somewhat dependent on resources, active research, and PIs’ individual interests in your program. In some fields the connection is more obvious (e.g., neuroscience, cognitive sciences, pharmacology, epidemiology, etc.) but you can find relevant topics even in biochemistry and microbiology. My med school had/has biochem PIs doing research on serotonin neurotransmission and in lipid metabolism and neurocognitive disorders, and virologists researching association and mechanism of certain viruses with the development of subsequent depression, neurocog disorders, etc.

Tangent alert:
As per the logistical reasons above, a PhD in clinical psychology would be impractical though a PhD in cognitive science or some flavor of experimental (i.e., not applied) psychology would not be unreasonable - if it is something you’re genuinely interested in and not just as a means to attempt to bolster your app for residency. This isn’t terribly common and dependent on the school but I am aware of people who have done concurrent MD/PhDs like this. Clinical psychology came into being peri-WWII at a time when psychology was basically a research and philosophical discipline aimed at objectively observing and understanding human behavior, with the US military putting a large amount of money into developing systematic means of objectively quantifying and qualifying abnormal (“pathological”) psychology v. “normal” psychology and later developing ways of systematically and objectively addressing/treating “abnormal” psychology. This differed from psychiatry which at the time was dominated by psychoanalytic theory and thus more subjective, qualitative, and theoretical. Based on its philosophical origins, as clinical psychology developed into an applied discipline it differed from psychiatry in that it relied(relies) very heavily on statistics, used(uses) psychometrics, and focused treatment on things which can be somewhat more objectively assessed and measured (e.g., cognition and behavior). Hence things like cognitive and intelligence testing, personality testing, CBT, and DBT coming out of psychology. Over time, the distinction between clinical psychology and psychiatry has blurred some, but clinical psychology is distinct from psychiatry in the heavy amount of statistics, research methods, and research design in their training which medicine/psychiatry scarcely touches, learning to administer and interpret psychometrics (which in general requires a much greater statistics knowledge base than what is taught in med school and residency), and more robust therapy training in clinical psychology; particularly with therapy modalities that can be more objectively studied and measured. While I genuinely find psychometrics really valuable, there’s no real benefit to being able to administer and interpret them yourself as a psychiatrist outside of possibly forensic psychiatry. With the statistics and research skills learned, these will be covered in a more research oriented experimental psychology/cognitive science program as well, and an MD doesn’t really add anything to this if it’s the path you want to go. If you opt to go a more clinical route, your stats and research skill sets (particularly in regard to psychology) are going to atrophy. While clinical psychologists do generally receive more and much better therapy training (particularly from a theory standpoint) compared to psychiatry residency, if this is something you’re interested in you can start pursuing additional training in therapy outside of your program and residency and continue this after residency, so there’s no real added benefit to pursuing doctoral level clinical psych training before med school and/or residency. So this, plus the logistical issues mentioned in my previous post is why a MD/PhD in clinical psychology really doesn’t make sense - there’s some redundancy, the areas where the fields are different don’t add significant value to each other by being trained in both, and the aspects that do add value can be gained more efficiently through other means (e.g., PhD in experimental/cognitive psychology if wanting a research career, pursuing additional therapy training during/after residency if wanting more robust psychotherapy skills).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The point of MD/PhD is for people who want a research career so I would focus on what you’re interested in (broadly) from a research/PhD perspective first and then how that relates to whatever specialty/field you’re interested in second v. the other way around. You can honestly make a connection between nearly any field from a PhD/basic science standpoint and psychiatry but at this juncture that will be somewhat dependent on resources, active research, and PIs’ individual interests in your program. In some fields the connection is more obvious (e.g., neuroscience, cognitive sciences, pharmacology, epidemiology, etc.) but you can find relevant topics even in biochemistry and microbiology. My med school had/has biochem PIs doing research on serotonin neurotransmission and in lipid metabolism and neurocognitive disorders, and virologists researching association and mechanism of certain viruses with the development of subsequent depression, neurocog disorders, etc.

Tangent alert:
As per the logistical reasons above, a PhD in clinical psychology would be impractical though a PhD in cognitive science or some flavor of experimental (i.e., not applied) psychology would not be unreasonable - if it is something you’re genuinely interested in and not just as a means to attempt to bolster your app for residency. This isn’t terribly common and dependent on the school but I am aware of people who have done concurrent MD/PhDs like this. Clinical psychology came into being peri-WWII at a time when psychology was basically a research and philosophical discipline aimed at objectively observing and understanding human behavior, with the US military putting a large amount of money into developing systematic means of objectively quantifying and qualifying abnormal (“pathological”) psychology v. “normal” psychology and later developing ways of systematically and objectively addressing/treating “abnormal” psychology. This differed from psychiatry which at the time was dominated by psychoanalytic theory and thus more subjective, qualitative, and theoretical. Based on its philosophical origins, as clinical psychology developed into an applied discipline it differed from psychiatry in that it relied(relies) very heavily on statistics, used(uses) psychometrics, and focused treatment on things which can be somewhat more objectively assessed and measured (e.g., cognition and behavior). Hence things like cognitive and intelligence testing, personality testing, CBT, and DBT coming out of psychology. Over time, the distinction between clinical psychology and psychiatry has blurred some, but clinical psychology is distinct from psychiatry in the heavy amount of statistics, research methods, and research design in their training which medicine/psychiatry scarcely touches, learning to administer and interpret psychometrics (which in general requires a much greater statistics knowledge base than what is taught in med school and residency), and more robust therapy training in clinical psychology; particularly with therapy modalities that can be more objectively studied and measured. While I genuinely find psychometrics really valuable, there’s no real benefit to being able to administer and interpret them yourself as a psychiatrist outside of possibly forensic psychiatry. With the statistics and research skills learned, these will be covered in a more research oriented experimental psychology/cognitive science program as well, and an MD doesn’t really add anything to this if it’s the path you want to go. If you opt to go a more clinical route, your stats and research skill sets (particularly in regard to psychology) are going to atrophy. While clinical psychologists do generally receive more and much better therapy training (particularly from a theory standpoint) compared to psychiatry residency, if this is something you’re interested in you can start pursuing additional training in therapy outside of your program and residency and continue this after residency, so there’s no real added benefit to pursuing doctoral level clinical psych training before med school and/or residency. So this, plus the logistical issues mentioned in my previous post is why a MD/PhD in clinical psychology really doesn’t make sense - there’s some redundancy, the areas where the fields are different don’t add significant value to each other by being trained in both, and the aspects that do add value can be gained more efficiently through other means (e.g., PhD in experimental/cognitive psychology if wanting a research career, pursuing additional therapy training during/after residency if wanting more robust psychotherapy skills).

I would just make a minor point that CBT afaik came from Aaron Beck, who was of course a psychiatrist. I somewhat agree that psychology and psychiatry training may be redundant, but in my opinion doing a PhD in a biological science would be even more redundant and even less applicable to psychiatry..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I would just make a minor point that CBT afaik came from Aaron Beck, who was of course a psychiatrist. I somewhat agree that psychology and psychiatry training may be redundant, but in my opinion doing a PhD in a biological science would be even more redundant and even less applicable to psychiatry..
Albert Ellis was a psychologist and equally as important in the development of CBT which is theoretically rooted in behaviorism (a school of psychology) and cognitive psychology. Alfred Adler was a significant influence on both Ellis and Beck, and while trained as a physician, he was never formally trained as a psychiatrist (IIRC) and the bulk of his professional work was in psychology. The vast majority of subsequent research and refinement of CBT has come out of psychology.

My back-up plan for med school was grad school for social psychology and I did a 2 year capstone project on the history and philosophy of psychology with some additional related research and writing between undergrad and med school, so I can get kind of douchey about this stuff.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The point of MD/PhD is for people who want a research career so I would focus on what you’re interested in (broadly) from a research/PhD perspective first and then how that relates to whatever specialty/field you’re interested in second v. the other way around. You can honestly make a connection between nearly any field from a PhD/basic science standpoint and psychiatry but at this juncture that will be somewhat dependent on resources, active research, and PIs’ individual interests in your program. In some fields the connection is more obvious (e.g., neuroscience, cognitive sciences, pharmacology, epidemiology, etc.) but you can find relevant topics even in biochemistry and microbiology. My med school had/has biochem PIs doing research on serotonin neurotransmission and in lipid metabolism and neurocognitive disorders, and virologists researching association and mechanism of certain viruses with the development of subsequent depression, neurocog disorders, etc.

Tangent alert:
As per the logistical reasons above, a PhD in clinical psychology would be impractical though a PhD in cognitive science or some flavor of experimental (i.e., not applied) psychology would not be unreasonable - if it is something you’re genuinely interested in and not just as a means to attempt to bolster your app for residency. This isn’t terribly common and dependent on the school but I am aware of people who have done concurrent MD/PhDs like this. Clinical psychology came into being peri-WWII at a time when psychology was basically a research and philosophical discipline aimed at objectively observing and understanding human behavior, with the US military putting a large amount of money into developing systematic means of objectively quantifying and qualifying abnormal (“pathological”) psychology v. “normal” psychology and later developing ways of systematically and objectively addressing/treating “abnormal” psychology. This differed from psychiatry which at the time was dominated by psychoanalytic theory and thus more subjective, qualitative, and theoretical. Based on its philosophical origins, as clinical psychology developed into an applied discipline it differed from psychiatry in that it relied(relies) very heavily on statistics, used(uses) psychometrics, and focused treatment on things which can be somewhat more objectively assessed and measured (e.g., cognition and behavior). Hence things like cognitive and intelligence testing, personality testing, CBT, and DBT coming out of psychology. Over time, the distinction between clinical psychology and psychiatry has blurred some, but clinical psychology is distinct from psychiatry in the heavy amount of statistics, research methods, and research design in their training which medicine/psychiatry scarcely touches, learning to administer and interpret psychometrics (which in general requires a much greater statistics knowledge base than what is taught in med school and residency), and more robust therapy training in clinical psychology; particularly with therapy modalities that can be more objectively studied and measured. While I genuinely find psychometrics really valuable, there’s no real benefit to being able to administer and interpret them yourself as a psychiatrist outside of possibly forensic psychiatry. With the statistics and research skills learned, these will be covered in a more research oriented experimental psychology/cognitive science program as well, and an MD doesn’t really add anything to this if it’s the path you want to go. If you opt to go a more clinical route, your stats and research skill sets (particularly in regard to psychology) are going to atrophy. While clinical psychologists do generally receive more and much better therapy training (particularly from a theory standpoint) compared to psychiatry residency, if this is something you’re interested in you can start pursuing additional training in therapy outside of your program and residency and continue this after residency, so there’s no real added benefit to pursuing doctoral level clinical psych training before med school and/or residency. So this, plus the logistical issues mentioned in my previous post is why a MD/PhD in clinical psychology really doesn’t make sense - there’s some redundancy, the areas where the fields are different don’t add significant value to each other by being trained in both, and the aspects that do add value can be gained more efficiently through other means (e.g., PhD in experimental/cognitive psychology if wanting a research career, pursuing additional therapy training during/after residency if wanting more robust psychotherapy skills).
What are your thoughts about a PhD in epidemiology?
 
What are your thoughts about a PhD in epidemiology?
If it’s something you’re genuinely interested in and intend to utilize/have an idea of what you’d want to do with it career-wise it’s totally reasonable and equally relevant and applicable to almost all specialties.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If it’s something you’re genuinely interested in and intend to utilize/have an idea of what you’d want to do with it career-wise it’s totally reasonable and equally relevant and applicable to almost all specialties.
Any ideas what type of research I could do in epidemiology, that would blend well with my interest in psychiatry?
 
Top