Psychologists Shielded U.S. Torture Program, Report Finds

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Harmos

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/psychologists-shielded-us-torture-program-report-finds.html

Saw this in Times, thought to share and get opinions. I've been following the whole thing from when it became public a while back and I'm just speechless and remain so. Now I really know why Ken Pope left the organization.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/11/us/psychologists-shielded-us-torture-program-report-finds.html

Saw this in Times, thought to share and get opinions. I've been following the whole thing from when it became public a while back and I'm just speechless and remain so. Now I really know why Ken Pope left the organization.

I hope we aren't suggesting that sleep deprivation is torture...because we might as lock up every NCO and drill instructor in the armed forces. Probably some medical residency TDs too.
 
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Relevant quote from the movie 'Rainmaker':

Every lawyer, at least once in every case, feels himself crossing a line that he doesn't really mean to cross... it just happens... And if you cross it enough times it disappears forever. And then you're nothin but another lawyer joke. Just another shark in the dirty water.
 
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I hope we aren't suggesting that sleep deprivation is torture...because we might as lock up every NCO and drill instructor in the armed forces. Probably some medical residency TDs too.

HAHAHAHAHAHA...oh wait, its not funny to torture people.
 
It seems like a lot of overblown politically-motivated hyperbole and hand-wringing after the fact. I remember reading about psychologists being involved in this in the APA monitor while it was occurring. I thought it was a really bad idea at the time, but it wasn't like this was a big secret. As a profession, we have much worse on our conscience than this footnote to history. Just off the top of my head, our involvement in the eugenics movement, horrific treatment of severely mentally ill including ECT and lobotomies, administering IQ tests in English to my Italian great-grandparents at Ellis island and classifying them as *****s and imbeciles. There are still significant problems with the treatment for the mentally ill, just spend a little time at a state hospital or community mental health and it won't take long to see the problems.
 
The email send out to APA members today from Dr. Kaslow indicated many staff changes and a revamping or rebuilding of APA. My guess is the ethics violations by APA leadership and staff and DOD psychologist may just be the tip of the iceberg. My guess is State licensing boards review of ethics compliance and licensure may be the next step for many of these psychologist and affect their ability for independent practice.

Emails and listserv comments are suggesting that all APA leaders, staff and Board Members most likely will be fired due to their responsibility with this scandal and APA image is tarnished beyond repair unless new leadership and changes occur.

The American Psychiatric Association has guideline dating back to 2006:
Approved by the Board of Trustees, May 2006 Approved by the Assembly, May 2006"Policy documents are approved by the APA Assembly and Board of Trustees...These are...position statements that define APA official policy on specific subjects..." – APA Operations Manual.1. The American Psychiatric Association reiterates its position that psychiatrists should not participate in, or otherwise assist or facilitate, the commission of torture of any person. Psychiatrists who become aware that torture has occurred, is occurring, or has been planned must report it promptly to a person or persons in a position to take corrective action.)

a) Every person in military or civilian detention, whether in the United States or elsewhere, is entitled to appropriate medical care under domestic and international humanitarian law.b) Psychiatrists providing medical care to individual detainees owe their primary obligation to the well- being of their patients, including advocating for their patients, and should not participate or assist in any way, whether directly or indirectly, overtly or covertly, in the interrogation of their patients on behalf of military or civilian agencies or law enforcement authorities.c) Psychiatrists should not disclose any part of the medical records of any patient, or information derived from the treatment relationship, to persons conduct- ing interrogation of the detainee.

d). This paragraph is not meant to preclude treating psychiatrists who become aware that the detainee may pose a significant threat of harm to him/herself or to others from ascertaining the nature and the serious- ness of the threat or from notifying appropriate authorities of that threat, consistent with the obli- gations applicable to other treatment relationships.3. No psychiatrist should participate directly in the interrogation of persons held in custody by military or civilian investigative or law enforcement authorities, whether in the United States or elsewhere. Direct participation includes being present in the interro- gation room, asking or suggesting questions, or advising authorities on the use of specific techniques of interrogation with particular detainees. However, psychiatrists may provide training to military or civilian investigative or law enforcement personnel on recognizing and responding to persons with mental illnesses, on the possible medical and psychological effects of particular techniques and conditions of interrogation, and on other areas within their professional expertise.

As used in this statement, “interrogation” refers to a deliberate attempt to elicit information from a detainee for the purposes of incriminating the detainee, identifying other persons who have committed or may be planning to commit acts of violence or other crimes, or otherwise obtaining information that is believed to be of value for criminal justice or national security purposes. It does not include interviews or other interactions with a detainee that have been appropriately authorized by a court or by counsel for the detainee or that are conducted by or on behalf of correctional authorities with a prisoner serving a criminal sentence.
 
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How will the APA (psychology) censure these psychologists? Or won't they?

Some APA members are calling for mass termination of all APA leaders, staff, and Board members identified with the scandal. Certainly a very sad day for all psychologist but changes are needed quickly as APA is losing member every year and this news won't help matters.

A number of current staff and Board member are cited in the report and others are now saying there will be mass resignations rather than terminations including Board members and the CEO Norman B. Anderson.

There was a report released today with recommendations:

Shortly before release of the Hoffman Report, Stephen Soldz and Steven Reisner met with the APA Board of Directors at their request. SEE BELOW (posted on DIV 38 yesterday, July 10th):

As you know, Steven Reisner and I met with the APA board on July 2. We agreed to confidentiality until the report was public, which happened today. We, therefore, are distributing the Opening Comments that Steven and I made at that meetings. We believe that they provide a guide with which to judge APA’s actions in the coming weeks. Feel free to distribute. [Apologies for cross-posting.]

Opening Comments of Stephen Soldz and Steven Reisner to the
American Psychological Association Board, July 2, 2015

Last October, James Risen published allegations of American Psychological Association (APA) complicity in the Bush era torture program in his book Pay Any Price: Greed, Power, and Endless War. In the wake of these allegations, the APA Board in November 2014 commissioned an independent investigation of these allegations. This allegation was conducted by Chicago attorney David Hoffman of Sidley Austin LLC and his colleagues.

In late June, 2015, as they prepared to receive the Hoffman Report, the APA Board asked to meet with us (Steven Reisner and Stephen Soldz). We presume we were asked because over the last nine years we have been leaders of the movement to remove psychologists from abusive and sometimes torturous national security interrogations. Further, we have researched and published extensively on these issues and extensively shared the results of our research with Hoffman and his team. Most recently, we were the psychologist coauthors of the report All the President’s Psychologists: The American Psychological Association’s Secret Complicity with the White House and US Intelligence Community in Support of the CIA’s ”Enhanced” Interrogation Program, which was featured in a May 1, 2015 New York Times article.

The Board requested and we agreed to keep the substance of our discussions confidential until the report became public. However, with the public release of the report, we are now free to speak. Below are our opening comments to the Board.

Stephen Soldz Comments:

Thank you for having us here. I wish it was under less disturbing circumstances. We have come to discuss with you what we believe needs to be done by the American Psychological Association (APA) in the wake of the imminent release of the Hoffman Report. The conditions of confidentiality requested by the Board and agreed to by us have precluded our being able to discuss our ideas with our colleagues who have joined us for the last decade in our attempts to unveil the web of collusion beneath APA’s policies and actions regarding psychologist participation in sometimes abusive national security interrogations. However, our ideas have benefited from hundreds of hours of discussion with colleagues regarding the steps necessary to put APA on an ethical course. We believe that these ideas reflect those of many others besides ourselves, though we also consider it vital that the voices of those many others be actively heard as we proceed.

I would like to make some opening comments, following which Steven Reisner will describe our ideas for the initial steps needed for APA to right itself and weather the storm that is just over the horizon. We would like to emphasize that these comments and ideas were put down less than 48 hours after we obtained access to the 500+ page Report. Neither of us has even read the entire report, much less absorbed it. Thus, these ideas are preliminary and may well be supplemented by others as we fully absorb the report and discuss with colleagues what should be done.

I would like to begin with a very brief summary of what we take to be the gist of this report. The report documents in exhaustive detail the existence of a years long conspiracy to engage in collusion between senior leadership in the APA and the intelligence community, including the CIA and, most notably, the Department of Defense (DOD). This collusion involves a two-pronged strategy by the APA: First, there was a concerted attempt to generate so-called “ethical” policies on psychologist involvement in interrogations that would provide no constraints whatsoever on psychologists in the military working for DOD and other agencies. The second prong consisted of an elaborate deceptive and dishonest public relations strategy to falsely portray APA policy as concerned with the protection of detainee welfare and human rights.

This collusion included the development of apparently fine-sounding policy statements that were, as the report documents, virtually always vetted directly by DOD officials; manipulation of critics of APA policy to ensure that attempts to change that policy were toothless and did not in fact challenge DOD policies or practices; a strategic decision to turn heads away from increasing evidence on torture and other detainee abuse, including homicides, and on psychologist involvement in that abuse; and the dismissal and/or failure to investigate in any serious way ethical complaints against psychologists alleged to have participated in abusive interrogations, accompanied by repeated assurances from APA officials that all complaints would be comprehensively investigated. This collusion was accompanied by systematic manipulation of APA governance procedures, the active solicitation of opposition to critics by APA staff, and even the recording, in at least two known instances, of falsely claimed “unanimous” votes.

This years-long collusion was accompanied by false statements from every Board and every elected President over the last decade denying the existence of the collusion described in such detail by Mr. Hoffman. The collusion was also accompanied by squelching of critics and, sometimes, by personal attacks upon them in the face of overwhelming evidence in the public record, including media reports and the results of multiple government investigations by Congress and other agencies. Most notable, are the vicious personal attacks upon PENS task force member and national hero Jean Maria Arrigo, who first revealed the collusion, attacks that in one case was distributed widely by the president of the Association; responses to those attacks went unanswered by that President or any other Association official. Other critics have been banned from state psychological association listservs; been attacked by an APA president in the official Monitor on Psychology as “opportunistic commentators masquerading as scholars;” been threatened with possible libel suits and ethics complaints; been disinvited from speaking to and writing for state psychological associations; been surreptitiously recorded by APA staff when having a private conversation with reporters; had venues where they were speaking criticized and even implicitly threatened with loss of accreditation; and called “clowns” in a national psychological newspaper by an individual given numerous awards by APA and its divisions and who is often in APA governance. This, sadly, is only a partial list of the attacks on critics. In none of these instances did people in APA leadership positions stand up to defend the right of critics to speak. These actions were all undertaken against those who sought to uncover the collusion that was denied by Association leadership, including this Board and the current CEO only a few months ago.

That is the background to our meeting today to discuss how the APA should respond to the crisis facing the Association, the profession, and the country. I suspect that some of you have not yet fully grasped the magnitude of this crisis. As the result of its collusion, the APA is likely to become the public face of torture. The press storm will be fierce. Editorials will condemn the Association’s actions. Congress members will weigh in. Human rights groups, frustrated with the lack of accountability for torture, will be lining up to raise money off of suing the APA. There may be a decade of lawsuits, draining the budget and staff and elected officials’ time. Members will flee and young psychologists will be even more reluctant to join. And the Association’s 501(3) nonprofit status may be threatened.

More importantly, if not handled correctly, torture collusion will become the public face of the profession we love. There is little doubt that the APA’s actions will go down in history books next to the chapter on the Tuskegee and Guatemalan syphilis experiments. The actions we take in the coming weeks, months, and years will determine how that chapter ends.

I would like to end by outlining what I believe are the fundamental principles that should guide the APA’s actions forward. These are: contrition, accountability, transparency, inclusiveness, and genuine change. Notice that I did not list “healing” or “reconciliation.” Healing and reconciliation are needed, certainly, but this is not the time to talk of them. Before healing can start, we need painful surgery to remove the tumor that our work and the Hoffman Report demonstrate have been at the heart of the APA for the last decade.

Now Steven will describe the preliminary steps necessary to start removing this tumor.

Steven Reisner Comments:

Following on Stephen's comments I want to reiterate: There is a cancer on the APA. You here will have to decide whether to do the necessary surgery or whether you will preside over the death of the association:

There are four issues here:

1. The APA sacrificed its reputation and independence – perhaps its 501c3 tax exempt status – to align its policies with those of the CIA and the DOD. This was an active campaign, with constant behind the scenes consultation, in order to do the bidding of these agencies, first the CIA, then the DOD.

2. There was an active campaign to undermine the will of the membership and of the council when they attempted to institute ethical restrictions on such activity. Simultaneously efforts were made to prop up and expand opposing efforts in support of such activity. Sometimes efforts were made to create opposing efforts to such activity. Thus APA ceased being a member-driven or democratic organization. The letter and spirit of the organizations by-laws were thwarted in favor of this secret agenda pushed by a staff that is supposed to be neutral and facilitative of the will of membership and governance. Instead staff manipulated the council and the membership.

3. There was a public relations campaign directed to deceive the public and to manipulate governance. To the public the PR campaign made the false claims that APA was acting independently for human rights at the behest of its membership, while in fact it was doing the opposite. Within the organization there was a campaign to influence and manipulate those who opposed the policy or were uninformed and to bully those who would not be manipulated.

4. All of this was done to advance a program of torture and abuse. It continued long after that program and the psychologists’ role in that program were public knowledge. If this level of manipulation and deception were done solely to secretly promote a government agenda, it would be a scandal; the fact that it was done to support torture and abusive monitoring of and research on detainees, is more than a scandal – it reaches the level of support for war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The numbers of APA staff and members of governance involved actively in this disgrace is staggering. It began with a few and rapidly incorporated increasing numbers from top to bottom.

Before I lay out what we believe APA must do, I want to make clear what you are dealing with. If the report is released on July 20th, there will be front-page articles in every major newspaper in this country and around the world on July 21st.

The headlines will read: Report Finds APA Leadership Colluded With Bush Administration in Support of Torture.

What will the subheading read?
“Many named remain in leadership positions”
or
“APA removes tainted leadership in response to investigation”

This is not a PR problem. This is a survival of the association problem. And there is no good way to get through this. You will face numerous lawsuits and secondary investigations. You will face a hemorrhage of membership and the loss of public trust. And APA is going to lose its central leadership of the past decade and a half.
--------------
I will now follow on Stephen’s list of five essential categories of steps that must be taken if the association has a chance of surviving:

Contrition,
Accountability,
Transparency,
Inclusiveness
Genuine Change

Contrition

· Let’s be clear that contrition is not a PR maneuver. Contrition requires thoroughgoing acknowledgement, remorse and change. APA must publicly acknowledge the depth and scope of this failure.

· Apology to all affected – to the people harmed (detainees), it includes the public and the congress (for not upholding public trust and deceiving them), to the profession, members, former member and non-members for undermining our ethical foundations, opening us up to ridicule and scorn, and damaging our reputation. And to Jean Maria Arrigo.

· I would like to see an op-ed written by APA leadership in the Times expressing this contrition.

Accountability and Housecleaning

· Staff involved must be fired
· Members involved must be banned from governance
· Bring ethics charges where appropriate.
· More importantly, APA must publicly recommend state ethics charges where appropriate.
· Make sure there is no hint of conflicts of interest in any part of governance or staff
· Those found to be part of the collusion should be stripped of association awards, standing and honors.
· And then you can give a special award to Jean Maria for being willing to stand up to an onslaught of power and manipulation that no one in this room was willing to stand up to.

I will start with staff. I see that some of the people who need to go are in this room. That in itself tells me that you don’t really yet understand the seriousness of your situation. I want to say that this list is possibly incomplete, because I haven’t yet read every page of the report.

Staff to be fired
Anderson, Honaker, Gilfoyle, Farberman, Garrison, Kelly, Mumford, Behnke.

Governance prohibition effective immediately
Levant, Koocher, Banks, Dunivin, Moorehead-Slaughter, James, Deleon, Gelles, Newman, Gravitz, Shumate, Breckler, Strassberger, Sternberg, Matarrazo, and Anton

Recusal for conflict of interest and investigation of role required
Strickland

APA needs to recommend to Division and State Association that they do the same.

But housecleaning is a small piece of what is necessary for full accountability.
How do we hold leadership and governance itself accountable?
How do we answer the question, how did this happen and what must we do to insure it doesn’t happen again?

We must have a thoroughgoing and independent institutional review. We need to appoint a blue ribbon panel to evaluate the organizational processes, structures, procedures and culture that allowed this to happen.

The panel must recommend changes in processes, structures and procedures geared to preventing this kind of power manipulation from happening again. It must review APA’s overly close ties to military, intelligence agencies and government; it must in particular look at the potential for corruption in the directorates, in particular the ethics office, the ethics committee and the science directorate. It must investigate the APA voting processes and investigate the opaque entity that counts our votes: Intelliscan

It must further address:

· The power of staff and how it oversteps its institutional bounds
· The progressive minimization of the oversight role and authority of Council and restore its authority and responsibility
· Investigate how staff managed to impede the will of Council and prevent it from happening again (e.g., 1.02, statue of limitations).

We need a committee of ethicists to redesign APA ethics policy and procedures. It may be true that 1.02 was not changed with torture in mind – the fact that it and other standards were weakened under the influence of APAIT is a second scandal unto itself that must be investigated. We also need to reopen ethics cases closed as part of this conspiracy. And if those to be investigated are no longer members, we must recommend state board investigation.

There must be a financial accounting, including DOD, CIA and government money, awards, fellowships and quid pro quos.

We must refer this report and its findings to the FBI and we must cooperate fully in any ensuing investigation.

We must also refer the report to the appropriate Congressional committees, as per Senator Feinstein’s request. These committees include Senate Select CI, SASC, Senate Judiciary, and Senate Committee Health and human services and their counterparts in the House of Representatives. (Like the PENS report)

Policy change

All policies regarding APA and national security must be annulled, including the approval of operational psychology as a subspecialty.

Review of the ethics of national security and operational psychology:

Blue ribbon panel #2 to do a thoroughgoing independent ethical review of the role of psychologists in national security operations. JMA should be a part of such a panel, along with internationally recognized medical ethicists and human rights advocates.

Moratorium on participation in national security interrogation and detention operations during the review process.

No statute of limitation on TCID ethics charges, automatic ethics committee investigation for TCID charges when these arise in the context of national security operations, detention or interrogation activities.

We need to develop guidelines for undertaking such investigations.

For Non-members, APA has to recommend full investigation from the state boards in national security sites and offer them guidelines.

Transparency

Let this be the last time that APA discussions of such import are held in secret. We need to make all such discussions transparent and easily accessible. We also need to report in plain language:
· The salaries and perks of staff
· The lobbying APA does
· Who gets to represent APA to congress and government and how such people are chosen.
· Anything else members of council, the membership, or the public wants to know or should be informed of.

We need to make all our deliberations and actions transparent, including these discussions.

We should have APA books publish the Hoffman report; The American Psychologist and the Monitor should publish the Executive Summary.

We should deposit the entire record of the Hoffman investigation deposited into the APA PENS Debate Collection at the archive of the University of Colorado at Boulder.

And we should call for a Congressional investigation into the role of health professionals and health professional organizations roles in support of the torture program and invite the other health professional organizations to do the same.

Inclusiveness

All stakeholders must be represented in these discussions. These include the broader psychological community, including those who opposed now-tainted APA actions when they occurred and the hundreds or thousands who quit the APA because they recognized this complicity while the elected leadership and staff denied it. In addition, equally important stakeholders are the medical ethics community, human rights advocates, Congress (as seen by the expressed desire of Sen. Feinstein to review the report), and the broader public, as attested to by the extensive press interest in our April report. All of these have a stake in the decisions and initiatives you and we undertake today and in the coming weeks.

Ultimately, and importantly, we must set aside a time in August for a lengthy Town Hall Meeting at the convention where we give the membership a chance to discuss these revelations

Genuine Change - ???



Stephen Soldz
Boston Graduate School of Psychoanalysis
[email protected]
 
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Oneneuro:

The psychologists involved were found not guilty by the Texas board a long time ago. The complaintant: the APA. Why it was dismissed: turns out the via isn't in the business of turning over secret records.

Mitchell and Jensen also billed $81 million, so I'm guessing losing their license is not a big thing. Mitchell lives in a mansion on the water in Florida.
 
The numbers of APA staff and members of governance involved actively in this disgrace is staggering. It began with a few and rapidly incorporated increasing numbers from top to bottom.

A fish rots from the head down.

History doesn't necessarily exactly repeat itself...but it does rhyme.

Is it just me or is this sort of thing happening with an ever increasing frequency these days? And by 'this thing' I mean organizations appearing to be infiltrated by morally vacuous socialized psychopaths who are all into power/control and promoting people like them into positions of power. I work with veterans (admittedly, though, not a random sample of veterans) and they complain about the military culture changing in a similar manner...the 'leaders' being more devoted to a bureaucratic, power-hungry, politically-correct, 'Game of Thrones' type approach to their position rather than serving a value system of virtue, honor, and loyalty to values and principles rather than political 'strong-men.' A distinct lack of transparency is also part of it, a worship of death/destruction as 'cool', 'The Punisher' (white skull on a black background with long teeth), seeing evil as 'cool'/hip, deception ('spin') is portrayed as 'cool.' I grew up on Andy Griffith and John Wayne and now we have nothing but 'Special Unit' cop/agent shows where they break into people's houses without a warrant and brag about how they don't need a warrant because they 'are' the law I suppose.

Reminds me of 1984, Gulag Archipelago, and The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich a little too much...
 
This isn't surprisingly to me (my comments are focused less on the actions and more on the response of the APA). It reminds me much of the type of handling of business that I would expect from any large lobby firm (I am reluctant to consider APAs actions based on the direct service to its members and I'm not sure that they would argue that is their job). That following the report some of those folks were allowed to continue is mindnumbing in the sense of public image and the statement that APA "don’t really yet understand the seriousness of your situation" seems particularly true. All this underlines what I see as a very large crisis of the APA as a whole which includes numerous aspects, between the handling of credentialing that is being widely criticized within the field (in terms of debt ratios, internship match rates, poor training programs that remain accredited, etc) to the practice assessment lawsuit dues.

I'm more frustrated by the APA's response to things and self-management of psychology as an effective entity over the last decade than I am anything else. Torture is bad and all that, no doubt, but it seems the larger issue is the disconnect between what the field needs to ensure quality psychology exists and the steps APA is taking to match that.
 
It seems like a lot of overblown politically-motivated hyperbole and hand-wringing after the fact. I remember reading about psychologists being involved in this in the APA monitor while it was occurring. I thought it was a really bad idea at the time, but it wasn't like this was a big secret. As a profession, we have much worse on our conscience than this footnote to history. Just off the top of my head, our involvement in the eugenics movement, horrific treatment of severely mentally ill including ECT and lobotomies, administering IQ tests in English to my Italian great-grandparents at Ellis island and classifying them as *****s and imbeciles. There are still significant problems with the treatment for the mentally ill, just spend a little time at a state hospital or community mental health and it won't take long to see the problems.

Imperfect CMH or state hospitals are not the same as horrible treatment of the mentally ill in the past and using that to condone this is preposterous. You probably wouldn't condone lynching of african americans or slavery because there is still racism.
 
I am not for "torture" of course, but, call me crazy, I do not see why psychological science cant or shouldn't used for purposes of national security. Don't swat teams and ATF operations utilize principle of psychology for hostage negotiations, prolonged standoffs, etc.
 
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Now it appears that APA former ethics director and others from APA will file suit against the Hoffman report and APA claiming it is inaccurate. The report is over 500 pages and I skimmed parts of it. Seems that some of the APA directors were married to DOD psychologist and APA, FBI, CIA, DOD, and VA staff and directors were to closely connected to each other, as if APA was an extension of the Federal Government. Now former FBI staff who are retired are stepping forward claiming the report is all lies.

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2015/jul/12/apa-torture-report-louis-freeh-stephen-behnke
 
Oneneuro:

The psychologists involved were found not guilty by the Texas board a long time ago. The complaintant: the APA. Why it was dismissed: turns out the via isn't in the business of turning over secret records.

Mitchell and Jensen also billed $81 million, so I'm guessing losing their license is not a big thing. Mitchell lives in a mansion on the water in Florida.

My colleagues worked alongside Dr. Jesson unknowingly in an outpatient clinic while he was doing some of this work. When it all came to light, I think they let him go. But if he billed $81 million not sure he was hurting. Seems so split to be providing mental health therapy while consulting to develop new torture tactics.

None of this seems surprising. The same system that was developed to streamline ethics and adopt a "due no harm" policy from the darker ages of psychology appears to have sold out.
 
Imperfect CMH or state hospitals are not the same as horrible treatment of the mentally ill in the past and using that to condone this is preposterous. You probably wouldn't condone lynching of african americans or slavery because there is still racism.
I clearly stated in my post that I did not think it was a good idea for psychologists to be involved in military interrogations. I was not equating treatment of mentally ill with torture, I was stating that we should focus on the clinical work that we do. The other point I made was about hyperbole and I think you made that point for me. It does sound that you are equating the interrogation methods used by the US military in the war against terrorism to slavery or the murder of innocent African Americans by racists.
 
I hope we aren't suggesting that sleep deprivation is torture...because we might as lock up every NCO and drill instructor in the armed forces. Probably some medical residency TDs too.
I guess making light of a situation has it uses, and that's the only thing some people can do in these situation: create distance. I don't think any of us would ever like to be in a situation where a health professional, presumably our only hope for humane treatment in a bleak situation, is actively involved in torture or has been involved in finding the most cruel way to torture us, be it month-long forced nudity, week-long forced sleep deprivation, anal feeding, waterboarding, stress positions, total sensory deprivation, and so on.

I think if a person is tortured himself or treats a patient who has been, there is no mistaking it. But I've heard of all sorts of comparisons from people who know nothing about torture. Someone once wrote that the descriptions of torture were "arousing" because it was so similar to S&M. Not torture related but it also reminded me of some Canadian politician making light of police use of pepper spray on young (many college students) protesting at the 1997 APEC summit, by joking that he likes pepper and he uses it on his food. I guess all these things are exactly the same, emotionally, psychologically, physically. But again, as I said, some people need the distance more than others.
 
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I am not for "torture" of course, but, call me crazy, I do not see why psychological science cant or shouldn't used for purposes of national security. Don't swat teams and ATF operations utilize principle of psychology for hostage negotiations, prolonged standoffs, etc.

Sure, use it if you want, even if we have data suggesting that it leads to unreliable data and a tendency to get innocent people to admit to things they did not do, in the hopes that you get a nugget of useful info now and then. So, I'm not sure how much I'd call torture, "science." But, even if you want to swim in that ethical morass, psychologists should not be the ones involved. Seems to be in clear violation of some of our stated principles and ethical guidelines.
 
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Yes, depriving some heathen jihadist of some sleep is just terrible. Pardon me while I weep.
 
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Well, psychologists were involved with a tad bit more than sleep deprivation according to the full report. Second, I guess it depends on how many false positives (innocent civilians) you are ok with undergoing torture. But hey, their skin isn't white, so I guess it's ok to treat them like animals.
 
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I read through more of the report late last night and was surprised to discover that one of the psychologist who filed complaints was in graduate school with me at Oklahoma State University back in the 70's when I got my MS degree in Counseling. Apparently APA Directors scorned and attempted to Blackball many of the Psychologist who filed complaints to have Mitchell, James, Leso, and Jesson banned and license revoked by APA and psychology boards. Trudy Bond was finishing her EdD when I was finishing my MS degree at OSU. I know some of the other psychologist identified in the report as well. The main problem with APA was inaction and time span as this started some 15-years ago and now most of the Psychologist are retired.
Apparently there was no empirical science and Mitchel and Jesson engaged in fraud and the DOD, FBI, and CIA bought the scam. How would you realistically charge 81 million for empirical peer reviewed science?
 
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Yes, depriving some heathen jihadist of some sleep is just terrible. Pardon me while I weep.
Muslims aren't heathens, suspects aren't all terrorists, and you talk pretty tough for a guy that didn't join the navy to avoid deploying
 
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Muslims aren't heathens

No, but terrorists are.

Not joining the Navy was my wife's call (not that its relevant to this discussion at all).
 
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That would be great, if only terrorists had been tortured. Several governments, ourselves and allies, have readily admitted that some of their detainees who have been tortured were later found to have been detained with no actual evidence of them being involved in any terroristic activities.

I, for one, feel that if we as a country are going to openly flaunt the Geneva conventions that we have signed, we should at least have the common courtesy to take our name off the document. Relatedly, if a psychologist is going to go against their ethical code and commit war crimes, they should at least have the dignity to revoke their own license.
 
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That would be great, if only terrorists had been tortured. Several governments, ourselves and allies, have readily admitted that some of their detainees who have been tortured were later found to have been detained with no actual evidence of them being involved in any terroristic activities.

And that, I agree, is wrong. Again, I am not advocating torture. But some of the activities (eg., sleep deprivation) people seem to be getting so ruffled about dont strike me as being much rougher than what any marine or soldier endures in basic training and/or AIT.
 
But, you're still ok with torture, despite the science actually being more on the side suggesting that we will get more false confessions and unreliable information rather than actionable information?

Im ok with sleep deprivation (as an example). Maybe loud speakers with some AC/DC (again as an example..have no idea if there is any empirical support for this). If you consider that torture, so be it.
 
How is it the DOD psychologists are exempt from mandated reporting of abuse towards children, adults, and elderly? My take is the psychologists involved in torture should have had criminal charges and sentenced to military prison time.
 
I do not see why psychological science cant or shouldn't used for purposes of national security

Actually, since "science" and "empirical support" have now been brought up a couple times. I'm curious if you know of any support for the use of these techniques? If you are claiming that they should be ok, and that our evidence based practices are important for national security, where is that evidence? We have mounds of evidence about interrogation leading to false confessions and inaccurate information even when real information is given up, but where is the evidence supporting these techniques if it is so important?
 
Actually, since "science" and "empirical support" have now been brought up a couple times. I'm curious if you know of any support for the use of these techniques? If you are claiming that they should be ok, and that our evidence based practices are important for national security, where is that evidence? We have mounds of evidence about interrogation leading to false confessions and inaccurate information even when real information is given up, but where is the evidence supporting these techniques if it is so important?

Im not familar with this area of the literature, nor do I care to be.

My "ok" meant I am morally ok with use of some enhanced techniques, especially the ones that dont seem much more severe than what anyone is subjected to in basic training or AIT.
 
Im not familar with this area of the literature, nor do I care to be.

My "ok" meant I am morally ok with use of some enhanced techniques, especially the ones that dont seem much more severe than what anyone is subjected to in basic training or AIT.
You can't let your own fears result in mistreating other people. Get some balls. Toughen up a bit. Just a cowardly thing to torture people.

The research on this says that essentially no truthful information is ever attained from such tactics.
 
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But of there is no evidence to support it's use in obtaining reliable information, why use it? Especially if you are advocating for the use of "psychological science" in national security? Secondarily, why is it then ok for psychologists to participate in activities we know for a fact carry a risk of harm?
 
But of there is no evidence to support it's use in obtaining reliable information, why use it? Especially if you are advocating for the use of "psychological science" in national security? Secondarily, why is it then ok for psychologists to participate in activities we know for a fact carry a risk of harm?

"No evidence" seems to be debatable here.

Everything we do carries a risk of harm. Again, I suppose my sympathy for people that fly buildings into skyscrapers is less than yours. Again, not a reason for torture, but I'm not all that concerned that they might be put under some degree of duress either.
 
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I'm open to evaluating any evidence should it be provided. We cannot simply advocate for evidence based practices only when it suits our whims. As for sympathy for terrorists, build that strawman if you wish to, I'm more concerned about torturing innocent people when the torture techniques are unreliable and of questionable good in the first place. Not too mention the real reason of this thread, condoning psychologists' and the APA's role in such things when it is clearly against our ethical guidelines.
 
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I would seriously report erg, if we can find where he works. If he is suggesting this is ok, then I wonder what is happening to his patients?
 
I would seriously report erg, if we can find where he works. If he is suggesting this is ok, then I wonder what is happening to his patients?

Report me for?

Excercising my first amendment right?
 
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I would seriously report erg, if we can find where he works. If he is suggesting this is ok, then I wonder what is happening to his patients?

I'd be careful about throwing accusations of misconduct. We can't infer details of his clinical work merely from his political leanings.
 
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I would seriously report erg, if we can find where he works. If he is suggesting this is ok, then I wonder what is happening to his patients?

This an an open forum for aspiring psychologists and psychologists to voice their thoughts. What one says on a forum does not always dictate how one is with the patient population. Reporting anyone is a serious allegation and frivolous reporting is against the ethical code of conduct. While I might not always agree with what erg says either, this should remain a safe place and not a witchhunt for those you don't agree with.
 
"No evidence" seems to be debatable here.

Everything we do carries a risk of harm. Again, I suppose my sympathy for people that fly buildings into skyscrapers is less than yours. Again, not a reason for torture, but I'm not all that concerned that they might be put under some degree of duress either.

"Everything we do carries a risk of harm." Doing a therapy session sloppily carries the same logistical risk of harm as waterboarding someone?

As WN said, many people who were tortured were not involved in flying anything into anything.

You're full of straw men on this one, Erg.
 
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I'm open to evaluating any evidence should it be provided. We cannot simply advocate for evidence based practices only when it suits our whims. As for sympathy for terrorists, build that strawman if you wish to, I'm more concerned about torturing innocent people when the torture techniques are unreliable and of questionable good in the first place. Not too mention the real reason of this thread, condoning psychologists' and the APA's role in such things when it is clearly against our ethical guidelines.

Torture is not wrong because it produces inaccurate information, or because it was applied to the wrong person.

Torture is wrong because it is wrong.
 
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This an an open forum for aspiring psychologists and psychologists to voice their thoughts. What one says on a forum does not always dictate how one is with the patient population. Reporting anyone is a serious allegation and frivolous reporting is against the ethical code of conduct. While I might not always agree with what erg says either, this should remain a safe place and not a witchhunt for those you don't agree with.

I am a pretty fair person and rarely say stuff like this..BUT, when a Psychologist says that a) torture is ok b) that he doesn't care about the research/facts, there is reason to be concerned. I don't think I'm crazy in suggesting that if he is this quick to throw out facts and resort to emotion, that this could very well inform his clinical practice, and then there is reason to be worried for his patients.
 
I am a pretty fair person and rarely say stuff like this..BUT, when a Psychologist says that a) torture is ok b) that he doesn't care about the research/facts, there is reason to be concerned.

Is that what i said?
 
"Everything we do carries a risk of harm." Doing a therapy session sloppily carries the same logistical risk of harm as waterboarding someone?

Did I advocate such a thing?
 
I am a pretty fair person and rarely say stuff like this..BUT, when a Psychologist says that a) torture is ok b) that he doesn't care about the research/facts, there is reason to be concerned. I don't think I'm crazy in suggesting that if he is this quick to throw out facts and resort to emotion, that this could very well inform his clinical practice, and then there is reason to be worried for his patients.

So you are going to tell the licensing board what....? That you are worried? Im sure they'll jump right on that.
 
How do we obtain the research that information under duress is not accurate if psychologists aren't involved in it? I agree that psychology does have a role to play in these matters, but this whole debate seems more like a political and moral as opposed to scientific. Also, I am appalled that a poster is threatening another poster because of his opinion on this. Reasonable people can differ on their opinions on hot topics like this and still coexist peacefully.
 
How do we obtain the research that information under duress is not accurate if psychologists aren't involved in it? I agree that psychology does have a role to play in these matters, but this whole debate seems more like a political and moral as opposed to scientific. Also, I am appalled that a poster is threatening another poster because of his opinion on this. Reasonable people can differ on their opinions on hot topics like this and still coexist peacefully.

Listen..people's opinions are not always equal, or as valuable, nor should everyone's opinion be respected, nor should there be a balance where stupid opinions are treated as legitimate and the same as facts. You've been watching way too much fox news.

If someone says that they are ok for torture, they are stupid and dangerous people, especially if they are psychologists..and if you can't see that, you shouldn't be doing this work either.
 
If someone says that they are ok for torture

Is that what I said?

And, I would again ask that you specify what complaint/charge you would launch against me to a licensing board. If you are going to accuse me of such in public forum, you at least should be specific with your charge.
 
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One of the big issues with all of this is that we really have very little we can do to stop psychologists from being involved, besides stopping the government from being involved. I'm not sure if the folks doing this were licensed...if they were that could and should certainly be revoked. However, I can't come up with any capacity in which torture reasonably constitutes practicing as a psychologist, so its not like one needs a license to do that. Revoking the license probably wouldn't change a whole lot. Pretty much the only power APA has over individual psychologists is to revoke their membership...and given how many folks are leaving voluntarily these days I doubt many would view losing the privilege of paying hundreds of dollars in membership dues as a catastrophe. The divergence of ethics and law really takes a lot of the "bite" of enforcement away.

Obviously, we shouldn't be torturing people. That APA was shielding those who were is not remotely surprising to me though as they seem to largely function as a political body and publicity machine rather than a professional organization. Not really any different from finding out about a politician's advisory council trying to keep quiet whatever heinous act of the day they were involved in - its just what they do. My disgust for them grows, but was already well past the point where something like this would fall outside my expectations.

And yes - while I strongly disagree with erg, I think the idea of reporting him to a licensing board based on what he's said in this thread is several steps beyond being laughably absurd. Licensing boards are not the thought police. Heck, they rarely even do anything substantive about actual questionable practices occurring, let alone something like this.
 
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One of the big issues with all of this is that we really have very little we can do to stop psychologists from being involved, besides stopping the government from being involved. I'm not sure if the folks doing this were licensed...if they were that could and should certainly be revoked. However, I can't come up with any capacity in which torture reasonably constitutes practicing as a psychologist, so its not like one needs a license to do that. Revoking the license probably wouldn't change a whole lot. Pretty much the only power APA has over individual psychologists is to revoke their membership...and given how many folks are leaving voluntarily these days I doubt many would view losing the privilege of paying hundreds of dollars in membership dues as a catastrophe. The divergence of ethics and law really takes a lot of the "bite" of enforcement away.

Obviously, we shouldn't be torturing people. That APA was shielding those who were is not remotely surprising to me though as they seem to largely function as a political body and publicity machine rather than a professional organization. Not really any different from finding out about a politician's advisory council trying to keep quiet whatever heinous act of the day they were involved in - its just what they do. My disgust for them grows, but was already well past the point where something like this would fall outside my expectations.

And yes - while I strongly disagree with erg, I think the idea of reporting him to a licensing board based on what he's said in this thread is several steps beyond being laughably absurd. Licensing boards are not the thought police. Heck, they rarely even do anything substantive about actual questionable practices occurring, let alone something like this.
To me this is less about the involvement of specific people (e.g., some are social psychologists so the license thing is totally out the window) and more about the culture of APA's doublethink, goodthink, and memory holes.
 
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