psychology phd after MD

[nature4me]

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Hi
I'm a general practitioner(MD) interested in psychology.
I like to become a research psychologist.(esp cognitive or developmental psychologist)
Is it possible for an MD to get in to a psychology phd program directly without a BA/BSc or MA/MSc degree in psychology?
how much salary do research psychologists earn?
I also like psychopharmacology but as far as I know, there is no psychopharmacology phd program! you should study pharmacology or psychology instead and then pick psychopharmacology as your future research field. am I right or there are other paths too?
some people tell me that I'm making a mistake and psychology sucks as a career but I really like it. some other ones tell me to study neuroscience as an alternative but I like psychology more and I don't like all parts of neuroscience either.(just behavioral and cognitive neuroscience which are more related to psychology!)
I really need help to make a good and rational decision.
your advice/recommendations are highly appreciated.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You are better off getting involved with research mentorship through a hospital, as you can earn professional wages and still have access to research training. Obviously you won't learn at the same depth and timeframe, but you can carve out a niche and still be very successful. If you want to pursue a Ph.D. after that...then you at least know that the alternative route wasn't enough for you.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Hi
I'm a general practitioner(MD) interested in psychology.
I like to become a research psychologist.(esp cognitive or developmental psychologist)
Is it possible for an MD to get in to a psychology phd program directly without a BA/BSc or MA/MSc degree in psychology?
how much salary do research psychologists earn?
I also like psychopharmacology but as far as I know, there is no psychopharmacology phd program! you should study pharmacology or psychology instead and then pick psychopharmacology as your future research field. am I right or there are other paths too?
some people tell me that I'm making a mistake and psychology sucks as a career but I really like it. some other ones tell me to study neuroscience as an alternative but I like psychology more and I don't like all parts of neuroscience either.(just behavioral and cognitive neuroscience which are more related to psychology!)
I really need help to make a good and rational decision.
your advice/recommendations are highly appreciated.

One possibility to consider is a "research doctorate" which is the standard way of getting a Ph.D. in much of Europe and the British Commonwealth. It is not well known here. It consists of a research program culminating in a dissertation that is defended before a committee. There is typically no coursework involved. In Britain this is the standard accepted model of doctoral work at institutions such as Oxford, Cambridge, the University of London, the University of Edinburgh in Britain or the University of Christchurch or Sydney in Australia or New Zealand as examples.

This would not prepare you for clinical work in any way but such Ph.D. degrees from these world class institutions are highly respected in academe. You can conduct your dissertation research in the USA while enrolled in the institution with their approval. Typically you present a faculty member with a proposal and if approved you are then enrolled in the doctoral program. Often you are required to enter an M.Phil (master of philosophy) degree program and are upgraded to Ph.D. work after a period of time. This may allow you to get the degree without becoming an overworked and grossly underpaid graduate assistant in the slave wage world of the American university. Again, he degree is based on research with no coursework. The American model of doing doctoral work is at variance with the models used at most academic institutions across the world. You would have the option of doing a research doctorate part-time at many institutions.

 

[roubs]

You are better off getting involved with research mentorship through a hospital, as you can earn professional wages and still have access to research training. Obviously you won't learn at the same depth and timeframe, but you can carve out a niche and still be very successful. If you want to pursue a Ph.D. after that...then you at least know that the alternative route wasn't enough for you.

Agree 100%, try this route before giving away half your salary :/

 

[nature4me]

One possibility to consider is a "research doctorate" which is the standard way of getting a Ph.D. in much of Europe and the British Commonwealth. It is not well known here. It consists of a research program culminating in a dissertation that is defended before a committee. There is typically no coursework involved. In Britain this is the standard accepted model of doctoral work at institutions such as Oxford, Cambridge, the University of London, the University of Edinburgh in Britain or the University of Christchurch or Sydney in Australia or New Zealand as examples.

This would not prepare you for clinical work in any way but such Ph.D. degrees from these world class institutions are highly respected in academe. You can conduct your dissertation research in the USA while enrolled in the institution with their approval. Typically you present a faculty member with a proposal and if approved you are then enrolled in the doctoral program. Often you are required to enter an M.Phil (master of philosophy) degree program and are upgraded to Ph.D. work after a period of time. This may allow you to get the degree without becoming an overworked and grossly underpaid graduate assistant in the slave wage world of the American university. Again, he degree is based on research with no coursework. The American model of doing doctoral work is at variance with the models used at most academic institutions across the world. You would have the option of doing a research doctorate part-time at many institutions.

many thanks Neuropsych2be.
you mean I can enter a phd by research psych program in both europe and U.S with my MD background? that's cool! but somewhere in your reply you mentioned that I will often be accepted as an M.Phil research student first and then I shall be upgraded to a phd student after a period of time! that was exactly what I wanted to know. I don't want to study 2 additional years for a Master degree, I want to get in to a doctorate program directly. but as you said it's a rare possibility. right? or not that rare? Also,could you please explain more about U.S/Canada research doctrate programs and how they're different from european system?

kindest regards
nature4me

 

[nature4me]

You are better off getting involved with research mentorship through a hospital, as you can earn professional wages and still have access to research training. Obviously you won't learn at the same depth and timeframe, but you can carve out a niche and still be very successful. If you want to pursue a Ph.D. after that...then you at least know that the alternative route wasn't enough for you.

yeah,you're right about the income drop due to quitting clinical practice.
it's a pitty! but I just can't stand being a psychiatrist. they are always dealing with pathological minds,while I'm more inclined to study healthy minds. also the longtime patient-physician contact bothers me.

 

[nature4me]

Agree 100%, try this route before giving away half your salary :/

Hey roubs
I saw you are a psych phd student too!
I'm curious to know why you selected this route in your life while you knew that the salary is not so high.
two possibilities come to my mind :
1. you are studying clinical/counseling psychology.
2.you love psychology which is a perfect reason to me.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

many thanks Neuropsych2be.
you mean I can enter a phd by research psych program in both europe and U.S with my MD background? that's cool! but somewhere in your reply you mentioned that I will often be accepted as an M.Phil research student first and then I shall be upgraded to a phd student after a period of time! that was exactly what I wanted to know. I don't want to study 2 additional years for a Master degree, I want to get in to a doctorate program directly. but as you said it's a rare possibility. right? or not that rare? Also,could you please explain more about U.S/Canada research doctrate programs and how they're different from european system?

kindest regards
nature4me

The research only doctorate is not done in the US or Canada but it is the de facto gold standard in the UK, the British Commonwealth and much of Europe. The issue of entering as an M.Phil student and then upgrading to a Ph.D. will vary depending upon the university and its policies. Some universities allow persons to enter the Ph.D. program directly and others will want you to start as an M. Phil and then transition to the Ph.D. as your research progresses. I should have been more specific in my initial post about time. Entering as an M.Phil student and then "upgrading" to the Ph.D. will *not* lengthen your time in any way. The term "upgrading" is more like advancement to doctoral candidacy in a US program rather than doing a separate degree program prior to entering the doctoral program. .For you as a US resident, if you wish to do your research for the degree in the US, you will want to inquire about doing an "external research doctorate." Because the degree is awarded based on research, the research can be conducted in a place other than the university if the faculty supervising you feel they can provide adequate supervision. Also know that different systems use different nomenclatures.policies and procedures so its helpful to know the lingo. ( as an aside, in these other systems you do a doctoral thesis and a masters dissertation) You may have a leg up as a holder of an M.D. since in the UK and British Commonwealth (Canada is an exception) a medical degree is a double undergraduate degree and an M.D. is a "higher doctorate" for persons who have graduated from medical school and afterwards conducted significant research such as a dissertation/thesis. Your research degree work can also often be conducted on a part-time basis again depending on the policies of the school bit most are open to the idea.

 

[nature4me]

The research only doctorate is not done in the US or Canada but it is the de facto gold standard in the UK, the British Commonwealth and much of Europe. The issue of entering as an M.Phil student and then upgrading to a Ph.D. will vary depending upon the university and its policies. Some universities allow persons to enter the Ph.D. program directly and others will want you to start as an M. Phil and then transition to the Ph.D. as your research progresses. I should have been more specific in my initial post about time. Entering as an M.Phil student and then "upgrading" to the Ph.D. will *not* lengthen your time in any way. The term "upgrading" is more like advancement to doctoral candidacy in a US program rather than doing a separate degree program prior to entering the doctoral program. .For you as a US resident, if you wish to do your research for the degree in the US, you will want to inquire about doing an "external research doctorate." Because the degree is awarded based on research, the research can be conducted in a place other than the university if the faculty supervising you feel they can provide adequate supervision. Also know that different systems use different nomenclatures.policies and procedures so its helpful to know the lingo. ( as an aside, in these other systems you do a doctoral thesis and a masters dissertation) You may have a leg up as a holder of an M.D. since in the UK and British Commonwealth (Canada is an exception) a medical degree is a double undergraduate degree and an M.D. is a "higher doctorate" for persons who have graduated from medical school and afterwards conducted significant research such as a dissertation/thesis. Your research degree work can also often be conducted on a part-time basis again depending on the policies of the school bit most are open to the idea.

Thanks a million. you helped me significantly.
I was very stressed before hearing this good news but the information you provided was an excellent relaxation.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Thanks a million. you helped me significantly.
I was very stressed before hearing this good news but the information you provided was an excellent relaxation.

FYI, the next step would be finding a professor at a British or Commonwealth University who has similar interests as you in terms of research and emailing them and beginning a dialog. You would then create a research proposal that aligns with that persons interests to include as part of your application. One institution that I know about that has taken part-time research doctoral students in psychology from the United States is the University of Kent in Canterbury England.

Several universities in Britain are "federal" universities with fairly autonomous semi-independent colleges where the admissions decisions are made. The University of Wales, the University of London, Oxford and Cambridge are such federated universities. Technically the degrees are conferred by the colleges under the name of the university. There really is no Oxford or Cambridge or University of London, just a set of united colleges operating under that name with the royal charter from Parliament and the Queen.

Here is where things get confusing. Many of these semi-independent colleges offer the same degrees in the same discipline in different parts of the federal university. Hence at the University of London you can get a Ph.D. in Anthropology at University College or Goldsmiths College or the School of Oriental and Asian Studies. Each of these are separate institutions with separate faculty and separate degree requirements. But they are all part of UOL and they confer the same degree. Weird huh!

 

[stigmata]

No it is not weird, and is definitely a better education system than ours; Especially when it comes to graduate training in research. I received a far superior training in research and statistics completing an MSc degree at the University of London (IOE) than I did in an american PhD program.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

No it is not weird, and is definitely a better education system than ours; Especially when it comes to graduate training in research. I received a far superior training in research and statistics completing an MSc degree at the University of London (IOE) than I did in an american PhD program.

Their system seems weird to Americans but it really makes more sense than our system. The British undergraduate degree is much more focused than ours since typically one only takes courses in one area of study. They don't have a "liberal arts core" at the undergraduate level since they are expected to get that breadth whilst studying for the A level entrance exams prior to university. One could argue that their BA is equal to an American M.A.Their taught masters is then a stepping stone to the research-only M.Phil. which is the stepping stone to the research only Ph.D. Their research based doctorate represents greater levels of sophistication and specialization than one sees here in the States. At least that's my opinion.

 

[Ollie123]

I'd actually agree with that generally, though from what I know of the system it sounds like the critical differences are in the undergrad/early grad level rather than later on.

From what I've heard from friends who studied there, it sounds very much ike post-MA graduate school here when you are mostly done with classes, taking comprehensive exams and basically just doing research. That's not that different from what say, a typical 5th year PhD student would be doing in the US, but is a world apart from what a first year student is doing.

It sounds like it might be a good option for this person, but I do think it would be very difficult to transition between the systems if one did not already have an advanced education. In the US you might graduate with a BA having taken 10 psychology classes (maybe even less!). Even if I had taken every psychology course my undergrad offered, it certainly wouldn't have brought me anywhere near the level where I could have felt comfortable learning something like HLM without some kind of additional "base" that graduate school gave me...and I'm more stats-inclined than the majority of my peers. I don't think I'm alone in this - I know people from a wide variety of undergraduate programs in this field and I haven't come across any who I think would feel differently. I'm just not sure our system is set up for that right now.

That said, I love that their research degrees are multiple projects. I think it allows people to get experience with more diverse methodology, and more importantly I think it fosters programmatic research rather than just single studies. Of course, multiple studies is also quite common for "hard science" PhDs in the US. This one is particularly salient to me right now as I'm trying to cram everything I can into my one dissertation just because I want to get experience with it before leaving.

Generally, my point is that I really like the system, but I think in order for it to work here we'd need to reform undergraduate education as much or more than we'd reform graduate education.

 

[nature4me]

FYI, the next step would be finding a professor at a British or Commonwealth University who has similar interests as you in terms of research and emailing them and beginning a dialog. You would then create a research proposal that aligns with that persons interests to include as part of your application. One institution that I know about that has taken part-time research doctoral students in psychology from the United States is the University of Kent in Canterbury England.

Several universities in Britain are "federal" universities with fairly autonomous semi-independent colleges where the admissions decisions are made. The University of Wales, the University of London, Oxford and Cambridge are such federated universities. Technically the degrees are conferred by the colleges under the name of the university. There really is no Oxford or Cambridge or University of London, just a set of united colleges operating under that name with the royal charter from Parliament and the Queen.

Here is where things get confusing. Many of these semi-independent colleges offer the same degrees in the same discipline in different parts of the federal university. Hence at the University of London you can get a Ph.D. in Anthropology at University College or Goldsmiths College or the School of Oriental and Asian Studies. Each of these are separate institutions with separate faculty and separate degree requirements. But they are all part of UOL and they confer the same degree. Weird huh!

semi-weird! thnx ,thnx and thnx again!