Psychology Premed

[bcliff]

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After going home for the holidays, I encountered my fair share of 'wait you're not even going to be an MD?' accompanied with blank stares of confusion, but amidst all these condescending interactions, I had an interesting conversation with my grandmother about not completely ruling out med school. I graduated last year at 19 from a public research university in a major metropolitan area with a decent psychology program. I'm the youngest student from the university to attain advanced and research honors, graduate cum laude, blah, blah, blah. Now I'm working full time as a psychometrist while also working on a couple pubs, and since I'm not in classes, have a little down time, and am still pretty young, I'm thinking about taking a few premed courses just to see if it's something I'm at all interested in. My current plan is to apply to clinical PhD programs starting in Fall '15, but my PI is an MD/PhD from Harvard and seeing all the work that he's done and how impressive his CV is has always made the MSTP route seem very intriguing and lucrative.

I guess my question(s) with this post is a.) has anyone else gone through this wishy washy MD/PhD thought process, and b.) If I get into a PhD program, is it possible/recommended to apply to med school while in grad school? My understanding is that with most formal MSTP programs you start your PhD & MD concurrently, but I didn't know if a formal MSTP program would be my only route to a PhD/MD? I'm sure though that if I do get into a PhD program med school will be the last thing I'm going to want to worry about with any free time I may have.

Please feel free to move this to another thread if similar issues have been brought up in the past. I think there may be an MSTP forum on the site, but I had some trouble finding it. Thanks!

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Admittedly I got my BA 20 years ago but back then I toyed with the whole MD route. I had decent grades in all my med school prerequisites and did well on the MCAT. I then had the opportunity to shadow a physician and that squelched any desire for med school. Dealing with body fluids, fungal infections, dying patients, etc ... ain't pretty. Physician training is more than passing classes. Their residency training is frequently brutal. Think about spending years with massive sleep deprivation, being forced to make critical life and death decisions when you have been awake for 20 hours, being repeatedly put in no win situations, dealing with patients who won't live despite your best efforts, being repeatedly blamed by attending physicians or angry patients and/or family members with lawyers for things beyond your control etc ... All this of course while you defer earning any income. Also understand that most MD/Ph.D. programs are to train physician scientists and there are no opportunities to get training as a clinical psychologist and a physician concurrently through that route.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I know of one or two MD/PhD individuals whose latter degree is in clinical psychology. It's certainly doable, although it's also certainly not the most "efficient" pathway to becoming a physician scientist--that would be the dual degree programs you've mentioned, although those research doctorates tend to be in areas directly related to medicine/medical research (e.g., biology).

I'd second Neuropsych2be's implicit recommendation to shadow a few physicians who do the type of work you envision yourself doing. It sounds like you already have one with whom you work relatively closely (your PI), so finding a few others through her/him could help you gain a better appreciation for whether or not you'd enjoy having their jobs.

Additionally, a big part of the equation here is going to be what your career goals are. Also, be honest with yourself about the whole "physician envy" situation. If you're already having doubts about going the PhD rather than MD route in part based on this factor, then it likely isn't going to diminish any in grad school.

 

[nitemagi]

I had a classmate in med school who started her PhD a year before her MD. But I believe she was accepted to the full MSTP program and just opted to start that way. She was already affiliated with a lab.

 

[bcliff]

Thanks for the input everyone!

If I were to go strictly to grad school, I would want to pursue a clinical PhD because I enjoy both the clinical & research aspects of the field, but if I went the MSTP or MD/PhD route I would love to study cognitive psych or cognitive neuroscience while working towards an MD because it would also allow for the clinical and research opportunities that I want to pursue. However, I'm thinking that my best bet would be to enter a MD/PhD program rather than an NIH funded MSTP because there seems to be greater variety in what subject areas are available and because I may opt to wait until I've been in grad school for a year or so before applying for the medical component (I don't think this is typically allowed in MSTP's..?). My only qualm about this route is that if I do end up starting grad school and then applying to med school a year into the program, I would have to be set on my grad program, and if I don't make it into/decide not to apply to medical school, I ultimately want to be working towards a degree that will allow me to work on both research and clinical work - In other words a clinical PhD rather than a strictly research PhD.

Long story short - Is an MD/PhD clinical psychology a.) not possible b.) redundant c.) waste of time/money, and if this ends up being what I really want to do, should I apply to both med school & grad school concurrently, so I know where I stand when I make my decisions about what program(s) to attend, in which case I would be applying to MD/PhD cognitive psychology or cognitive neuro programs and a handful of PhD clinical psychology programs in case I don't make it into any MD/PhD programs..?

Sorry for the lengthy reply - I really appreciate all the feedback!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The only people I know of who have both an MD and a PhD in clinical psych (i.e., those I mentioned above) completed one first, and then went back for the second degree at a later point. Thus, I don't know that it's possible to concurrently complete the two degrees, particularly given the clinical (and associated supervision) requirements of both, and clinical psych's internship requirement.

If you go the MD/PhD route, then neuroscience is going to be your best bet.

 

[PHD12]

Thanks for the input everyone!



Long story short - Is an MD/PhD clinical psychology a.) not possible b.) redundant c.) waste of time/money, and if this ends up being what I really want to do, should I apply to both med school & grad school concurrently, so I know where I stand when I make my decisions about what program(s) to attend, in which case I would be applying to MD/PhD cognitive psychology or cognitive neuro programs and a handful of PhD clinical psychology programs in case I don't make it into any MD/PhD programs..?

Sorry for the lengthy reply - I really appreciate all the feedback!

I've read that MD/PHD programs are more efficient than doing each program separately? You may be able to shave off a year or two. I think this depends on the program.

Also, you haven't mentioned anything about salary. But salary potential is very different if you decide to go with the PhD and not pursue the MD (MD salaries are 2+ times more than PHD salaries in clinical psychology). I know that MD's pursue research and can easily head departments etc. I don't know what the advantage of adding the PHD is aside from getting more rigorous research training.

 

[bcliff]

I appreciate the advice.

I think what I'm going to do is complete all my premed requirements; take the GRE & MCAT; apply to MD programs, clinical PhD programs, and MD/PhD neuro programs for Fall '15, and then I'll go from there. I'd really be happy with any of those routes, and I think I have a diverse enough background to be competitive in each field for a number of different reasons.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The Ph.D. portion of an MD/PhD program will almost always (I haven't seen an exception yet) be in a hard science. It doesn't make sense for a university to pay for any kind of clinical training. If "neuro" means "neuroscience", then yes that is possible....but any combo program will slant much more to the MD side.

I looked at quite a few combo programs way back when, and they all had a focus of being a physician first (do med school and then the 4th/5th-ish year before residency focus on research). Residency spots were exclusively AMC, with research options 2nd to 4th years, and then fellowship.

 

[G Costanza]

Why wouldn't you just go into psychiatry?

 

[bcliff]

Why wouldn't you just go into psychiatry?

I enjoy the research side of the clinical PhD as much as the clinical work, but I am well aware of the difference in pay between a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist, but I'm coming to understand that MD's can serve as PI's and collaborators on research projects and faculty at research universities and schools of medicine. I am leaning more towards an MD program rather than a MSTP or MD/PhD, but I've also been pre-psychology for years, and I'm trying to make sure that this pre-med shift isn't being made on a whim.