PsyD and internship/post-doc/employment

[PsychUndergrad]

---

Members don't see this ad.

I've sifted through the PhD. vs. PsyD thread and many others, but I'm interested in anecdotal information regarding PsyD and employability.

Has anyone with a PsyD from an APA-accredited university based institution (e.g. Baylor, Rutgers) experienced discrimination and/or significant problems securing a clinical internship/post-doc/employment in places such as VA center, hospital, inpatient facilities?

I've looked at APPIC postings from the last match and it seems that most of these types of internships seem to take about 3 Clinical Psych PhD for every PsyD.

 

[erg923]

That varies alot. The best answer is, in some places, yes and in some places no. Its also varies whether your talking about internship, post-doc, or employment. In terms of the predoc internship, there are certainly VAs (eg., palo alto VA among others) and academic med centers that do not take Psy.Ds and they are pretty upfront about that. However, that doesn't mean you wont be able to secure a VA or academic med ctr internship coming from a Psy.D program. Its just mean you will be out of the running at some of those places.

I rarely see purely inpatient psych hospitals, such as state hospitals, that have a bias against Psy.D.s though.

 

[DrGero]

That varies alot. The best answer is, in some places, yes and in some places no. Its also varies whether your talking about internship, post-doc, or employment. In terms of the predoc internship, there are certainly VAs (eg., palo alto VA among others) and academic med centers that do not take Psy.Ds and they are pretty upfront about that. However, that doesn't mean you wont be able to secure a VA or academic med ctr internship coming from a Psy.D program. Its just mean you will be out of the running at some of those places.

I rarely see purely inpatient psych hospitals, such as state hospitals, that have a bias against Psy.D.s though.

As a guy who's served one of the VA selection committees mentioned, I will say PsyD's don't get picked for internship not because of discrimination, but because we just have a plethora of top-notch funded program candidates to choose from, typically with publication histories as long as your arm. The PsyD candidates are often very competitive and compelling but they don't stand a chance against some of the 800 pound gorillas that apply to our program. As a personal matter, every year I review applications for our internship and postdoc programs I end up with a really nasty inferiority complex. These are some really impressive candidates.

 

[O Gurl]

I have to second DrGero. It seems the VA (especially academically affiliated ones) are making a push toward more science in the scientist-practitioner model. That may have more to do with the PhD preference than anything. That said, not all PsyDs are viewed as equal. I have flat out heard remarks from some members of our training committee regarding the "easy cut" method whereby applicants from certain programs (Argosy, Alliant, among others) are immediately tossed. Not that that is right, but it happens. When people are trying to get through 150-200 apps, there have to be some crude measures applied, I suppose.

 

[ventstri]

I've sifted through the PhD. vs. PsyD thread and many others, but I'm interested in anecdotal information regarding PsyD and employability.

Has anyone with a PsyD from an APA-accredited university based institution (e.g. Baylor, Rutgers) experienced discrimination and/or significant problems securing a clinical internship/post-doc/employment in places such as VA center, hospital, inpatient facilities?

I've looked at APPIC postings from the last match and it seems that most of these types of internships seem to take about 3 Clinical Psych PhD for every PsyD.

This is a helpful link from the 2008 APPIC (the organization that coordinates the internship match) applicant survey: http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_4_10b_match_about_statistics_surveys_2008b.htm

They don't provide standard deviations, so it's not possible to test the differences for statistical significance, but I would hazard a guess that the differences between clinical Ph.D. and Psy.D. applicants in matching to community mental health centers (CMHCs), university counseling centers, medical schools, and VA medical centers are significant, such that clinical Psy.D. applicants are more likely to match to CMHCs and counseling centers, but less likely to match to medical schools or VAs. There are smaller differences in the match rates at child/adolescent/pediatric sites and consortium sites, with clinical Ph.D. applicants somewhat more likely to match to these sites than Psy.D. applicants.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Degree matters some, but your training and mentors will matter more. You'll definitely have to prove yourself, as some places are not as open to Psy.Ds even from a top program. Internships like Brown, Duke, and probably a few others will be next to impossible to land. I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get to my fellowship: be in the top %'s at a uni-based psy.d, 5th year of teaching/researching, competitive VA internship, stellar LORs, etc.

I'm at an academic medical center of a top R1 university, and they didn't have the Psy.D. degree in the ID card system. Our job title in the system is "Research Fellow", since the vast majority of fellows across disciplines are not clinicians. I was told they had a Psy.D. awhile back (also on the clinical side), but in general it's a unique snowflake in that setting. The irony is that you can't walk 5 minutes without tripping over an M.D. Ph.D., but spotting a Psy.D. is like seeing a unicorn! The physicians don't care about degrees, though they do asking about boarding. The issue is with the department, as research keeps the lights on at many AMCs. It isn't like this at all AMCs, but at places like Harvard, Hopkins, etc...you'd be a unicorn.

For employment....it also depends. I think it is very hard to get into a big name university with a Psy.D., though if you have a solid track record of training and productivity you can get there as a clinician. I think competently trained Psy.Ds from at least a decent program with an APA-acred internship and decent post-doc really shouldn't worry about landed a job. Will you land your perfect job right after post-doc/fellowship...I doubt it, but our Ph.D. colleagues won't either.

 

[DUintern]

I have a PsyD and am in a VA internship. Plus, I have had post-doc and GS-II interviews with VAs. It seems to really depend on the person and what they make out of the PsyD.

 

[Buzzwordsoldier]

I have a PsyD and am in a VA internship. Plus, I have had post-doc and GS-II interviews with VAs. It seems to really depend on the person and what they make out of the PsyD.

What else worked for you?

 

[kitkat492]

Also a Psy.d and matched to a neuro track at a VA. I truely believe it depends on your experience.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Also a Psy.d and matched to a neuro track at a VA. I truely believe it depends on your experience.

Neuro in particular seems to be one of the specialties in which Psy.D. "discrimination" is lessened. You can see it for yourself just by browsing internship sites' webpages--they'll often say something along the lines of, "student must be a current graduate student in a clinical or counseling psychology Ph.D. program; for neuropsychology, a Psy.D. program is also acceptable."

Although yeah, ultimately I would say it comes down more to the particular site and to your personal CV/experiences.

 

[Zigman]

Neuro in particular seems to be one of the specialties in which Psy.D. "discrimination" is lessened. You can see it for yourself just by browsing internship sites' webpages--they'll often say something along the lines of, "student must be a current graduate student in a clinical or counseling psychology Ph.D. program; for neuropsychology, a Psy.D. program is also acceptable."

This strikes me as odd given that the main criticism of many PsyD programs is that they don't emphasize science enough. And, per Houston Conference guidelines, the model of the NP is scientist-practitioner. As such, I've always thought that NP may be THE area where PsyDs have the biggest battle for legitimacy. AA, what do you think leads to PsyDs receiving more consideration when it comes to NP? Which sub-specialties give less consideration?

Nonetheless, I am a PsyD and matched to a neuro track at an APA med school. And, at a major hospital where I work, we have 6 ABCN NPs -4 are PsyDs. Maybe there is something to this...I just wonder why?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

This strikes me as odd given that the main criticism of many PsyD programs is that they don't emphasize science enough. And, per Houston Conference guidelines, the model of the NP is scientist-practitioner. As such, I've always thought that NP may be THE area where PsyDs have the biggest battle for legitimacy. AA, what do you think leads to PsyDs receiving more consideration when it comes to NP? Which sub-specialties give less consideration?

Nonetheless, I am a PsyD and matched to a neuro track at an APA med school. And, at a major hospital where I work, we have 6 ABCN NPs -4 are PsyDs. Maybe there is something to this...I just wonder why?

I've wondered about it myself. My best guess would be that because it seems many Psy.D. programs (especially nowadays) are focusing on neuropsych, there are many Psy.D. graduates coming out trained in this area; higher numbers of trainees = potentially higher numbers of interns and eventual training faculty in the area, thus increasing exposure to the degree (and to competently-trained people holding it) and decreasing any associated stigma. Could also be associated with a relatively high number of Psy.D. holders going for boarding, as you've mentioned with respect to your practicum site...?

I'm positive that I'm missing other key areas, but that's what I've come up with thus far. I do know for certain that at quite a few sites, I saw specific mention that neuropsych was the only area in which a Psy.D. applicant would be considered.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Purely anecdotally, there were a lot of PsyD (both FSPS and university-based) practitioners and students who are or intend to be neuro and rehab psychs at the Div 22 (rehab psych) conference this year--they seemed to outnumber PhD psychologists and PhD students in attendance. Most of the practitioners I interacted with seemed to work at VAs and/or have completed VA internships, which would probably be expected given what division this was.

 

[DUintern]

What else worked for you?

I think it was a combination of clinical experience, research experience, and involvement on school committees.

 

[Flutterbyu]

I have a Psy.D. from a professional school with very little to no training offered formally in neuropsych. I matched to a VA for internship and am currently completing a 2 year APA accredited postdoc in neuro at a VA. It is SO much about what you make of your time in grad school. Seek out alternative training if you need to and don't be afraid to work harder than all of your peers to get where you want to be. I sought out top notch medical school practica sites throughout and cold called potential mentors until I found someone who could help me become the neuropsychologist I wanted to be. I truly believe anything is possible if you are willing to put the work in.

And as an aside, the director of my postdoc is an ABCN Psy.D.

Out of 6 interns last year (I was only neuro track), 2/6 of us were Psy.D. I am the only one out of about 11 postdocs (all non-neuro) this year.

 

[O Gurl]

Flutterbyu, congrats on being nearly through this process. Just as an FYI, I referenced your response in the PsyD sentiments thread. 🙂

 

[Phipps]

I have a Psy.D. from a professional school with very little to no training offered formally in neuropsych. I matched to a VA for internship and am currently completing a 2 year APA accredited postdoc in neuro at a VA. It is SO much about what you make of your time in grad school. Seek out alternative training if you need to and don't be afraid to work harder than all of your peers to get where you want to be. I sought out top notch medical school practica sites throughout and cold called potential mentors until I found someone who could help me become the neuropsychologist I wanted to be. I truly believe anything is possible if you are willing to put the work in.

And as an aside, the director of my postdoc is an ABCN Psy.D.

Out of 6 interns last year (I was only neuro track), 2/6 of us were Psy.D. I am the only one out of about 11 postdocs (all non-neuro) this year.

Hm. I am willing to work hard. Were you referring to additional training etc. while being in grad school, prior to your internship???

 

[Flutterbyu]

Flutterbyu, congrats on being nearly through this process. Just as an FYI, I referenced your response in the PsyD sentiments thread. 🙂

Thanks 🙂

 

[Flutterbyu]

Hm. I am willing to work hard. Were you referring to additional training etc. while being in grad school, prior to your internship???

Kind of. What I meant was, while my program pushed students to take generalized practica in college counseling centers and and community mental health centers, I sought out neuropsych sites with strong mentors available on site. I did my 2nd year practicum at a large teaching hospital and approached a senior faculty member about being on my dissertation committee; this meant staying on "extra" after my practicum ended and working extra hours (only 5-10 per week maybe) in order to 1. stay affiliated, 2. get more training, 3. have an expert and well-known researcher on my committee. I feel comfortable saying I worked much harder than my non-neuro peers, just because I had to seek out my own opportunities and not be afraid to cold call potential employers or mentors. That being said, I loved the work I was doing, so I didn't necessarily feel like it was a burden to do so.

 

[Phipps]

Kind of. What I meant was, while my program pushed students to take generalized practica in college counseling centers and and community mental health centers, I sought out neuropsych sites with strong mentors available on site. I did my 2nd year practicum at a large teaching hospital and approached a senior faculty member about being on my dissertation committee; this meant staying on "extra" after my practicum ended and working extra hours (only 5-10 per week maybe) in order to 1. stay affiliated, 2. get more training, 3. have an expert and well-known researcher on my committee. I feel comfortable saying I worked much harder than my non-neuro peers, just because I had to seek out my own opportunities and not be afraid to cold call potential employers or mentors. That being said, I loved the work I was doing, so I didn't necessarily feel like it was a burden to do so.

Thanks for the additional information. Sounds like it was/is/would be worth it. I'll keep that in mind.

Phipps