PsyD Applicants

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In my opinion, the PsyD was built wrongly. It started well with Rutgers and Baylor (the prototype Vail programs), but then was hijacked by the periphery of academics. . . professional schools offering PhDs, PsyDs, and business administration degrees. The PsyD take over of the clinical world is premature and has been spawned by ever faster churning of graduates from schools like Alliant, Argosy, and even PGSP (class sizes above 90 now) which gets some level of respect on this board because of the affiliation with Standord. Because the degree hasn't been adopted, by and large, from mainstream universities, the quality has suffered severely in my opinion. Without that support, allowing the PsyD to take over the clinical world destroys the field in my opinion.


Besides disappearing all together (as I am aware of your stance on dealing with the PsyD), what should be done to make the PsyD more worthy of the respect it's missing out on?
 
I wonder if those well renowned psychologists would have sought a PsyD had it been marketable and available at the time of their admissions process.


That is an interesting question actually. However, I would speculate that the answer would be far fewer than today. Before the Vail model existed, psychology was still largely viewed as an academic and research dicipline that had some applied areas that could be utilized. Those drawn to psychology in the 40 and 50s were often drawn to it because of their love for researching human behavior/ problems, and in general, were probably more of a "academic bunch," so to speak. At least in my opinion. My feeling from reading old works by those in academia (such as Meehl) is that the vast majority of students during that time were just as interested in pondering deep questions about statistics and learning theory as they were learning about Rogerian reflections. Now days, I think this is hardly the case with most students going into psychology.
 
That is an interesting question actually. However, I would speculate that the answer would be far fewer than today. Before the Vail model existed, psychology was still largely viewed as an academic and research dicipline that had some applied areas that could be utilized. Those drawn to psychology in the 40 and 50s were often drawn to it because of their love for researching human behavior/ problems, and in general, were probably more of a "academic bunch," so to speak. At least in my opinion. My feeling from reading old works by those in academia (such as Meehl) is that the vast majority of students during that time were just as interested in pondering deep questions about statistics and learning theory as they were learning about Rogerian reflections. Now days, I think this is hardly the case with most students going into psychology.

I think this is a good point.

How many students around now do you think have even read Meehl? How many fewer understand it? How many people are on the other side of the Why I don't attend case conferences paper? I'm betting that program type moderates the answers to those questions.
 
I think this is a good point.

How many students around now do you think have even read Meehl? How many fewer understand it? How many people are on the other side of the Why I don't attend case conferences paper? I'm betting that program type moderates the answers to those questions.

"I'm betting" doesn't prove a point. This is the stuff that's creating so much tension on this forum. It's getting out of control.

And honestly, I'm offended by your third question... and I've never said that before on this forum.
 
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I think this is a good point.

How many students around now do you think have even read Meehl? How many fewer understand it? How many people are on the other side of the Why I don't attend case conferences paper? I'm betting that program type moderates the answers to those questions.
That was a great read. I tried to do a quick search for it on here (I think there is a thread about it), but the main search was disabled for some tweaking. If you happen to have a link to it, or want to use the more basic search up top, I think it is a good thread to bump.

Here is the article if anyone wants to read it.....though I'd ask that you bump the other thread to discuss it.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~pemeehl/099CaseConferences.pdf
 
Good lord, how I love Why I dont attend case conferences. What a classic! I think it does a great job of illustrating the biases and intellectual deterioration that takes place in mutidicipliary tx teams without being too mean, and actually really humorous. Although, I have to say, I am one that doesn't always understand Meehl at times. He was so far above any of us that alot of his stuff is over my head. Alot of his stuff was required reading in my program, especially his early work on personality assessment, as well as his later work on the shortcomings of null hypothesis testing and clinical vs actuarial judgement. I loathe to think that his vast knowledge and intellect is not required reading in every program, ph.d or psy.d.
 
Can't we just let the PsyDs have one thread of their own?

They are just asking for a safe, judgment free thread in which to discuss their interests in the PsyD. (We PhD applicants do tend to overrun the other threads. And, here we are--including me--putting our two cents into this thread.

The PsyD applicants are NOT asking us for our opinions!!! They just want to have a discussion with one another about their choices--period!!!

Could we please let them get back to the original purpose for THIS particular thread?

Thank you.
 
Me on 1/31 at 5:24pm:

"It's interesting, because I agree that it is entirely false to assume:

PhD = research
PsyD = Therapy"



I have no problem whatsoever with what JN said. In fact I seconded his original response. My complaint was towards both sides generating PsyD vs PhD sentiment. I just feel like it's getting tired. I'm all for correcting misconceptions... things just flare up so fast it gets hard not to roll your eyes as you scroll down a thread these days.

This is how I feel about this thread now. I got excited reading responses from psychmama, tenacious and lamorena but now Im stuck defending the PsyD as we seem to be doing ad nauseum here.

But, the PsyD folks are presenting the same argument (PsyD = clinical, PhD = research). Do you just want to the folks that disagree (which includes both PhD and PsyD camps. . . the moderator here, a psyd, disagrees with that dichotomy) to concede, to let you (general) spread, arguably, inaccurate information on a forum that people considering graduate school in psychology use as a resource? The first post in this thread answering the question repeated many stereotypes about the differences in PsyD and PhD programs.

Yes, Annakei, the Vail model was designed as a practice degree. And, in some ways that's reflected in the admission process. The programs are generally not mentor based (which is more of an academic model). But, that's where the clinical focus stops, in my opinion. There are medical schools like this too. DO programs that farm out the clinical education to surrounding hospitals and other medical schools and caribbean schools that do the same. They often don't even have the resources to really teach anything themselves. JN and Ollie both conceded that they aren't quarreling with the Vail model, but with professional schools, and we need to make that distinction. But, frankly, there are so few non-"professional" psyD programs that PsyD serves as a pretty good proxy.

I think the purpose of the thread is a good one. And, I wish more PsyD students would present a detailed case for their decision process.

I generally get where you're coming from and for the most part I get it. There will be some things that we have to agree to disagree. But these threads more often than not spill over into the same arguments even if not directly related to the OPs question.

I dont understand, given the basis for the Psyd, why it is wrong to assume that the PSyD has more of a focus on clinical work. And, why it would be wrong for someone to choose in whole or part, that as their reason for pursuing this degree.

Again, I feel drawn back to: Who actually said anything like this?



And again. Who brought anyone down? Who insulted anyone? There was questioning, certainly, but it focused on what I see as the rather flimsy rationale for a few posters in making their decisions to do to a PsyD program. I agree with JS' summary of the second poster's rationale: none of those things are good reasons for choosing a PsyD. There ARE good reasons for choosing a PsyD, of course. The ones given really did not seem to be them to me.



1 & 2 don't seem like reasons exclusive to PsyD programs to me. 3 seems better, but there are PhD programs that do this too (e.g., BC counseling psych), so it doesn't seem like a reason *particular* to the PsyD model. 4 is perfectly reasonable for many people, though it's not the decision I'd make.

Who are you to decide what makes a good decision on why to choose a PsyD program? you're already insulting the person for choosing a PsyD and now you want a good enough reason? According to who? Your best bet is to hop off that horse you rode into on SDN. No one here bows down and gives you or anyone here a "good enough" reason to choose the PsyD.
 
We really need a smiley face that is digging its own grave....
 
We really need a smiley face that is digging its own grave....

digging.gif
 
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hello all my psyd peeps!! i feel its time we stop giving these haters any more of our time and attention. clearly, they have inferiority issues. maybe they are bitter about not going to medical school or something, so they are taking it out on us. maybe they need to feel bigger and assert dominance as CApsych suggested (i think you are on to something!!), which is their problem, not ours.

whatever the case may be, we know where we stand and why we are passionate about the path we chose. and the bottom line is we don't owe anything to them, we don't need to explain ourselves to them, nor do we need to defend where we are coming from to them.

so, as i said earlier, YAY PSYD!
 
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i feel its time we stop giving these haters any more of our time and attention. clearly, they have inferiority issues. maybe they are bitter about not going to medical school or something, so they are taking it out on us. they need to feel bigger and assert dominance as CApsych suggested (i think you are on to something!!), which is their problem, not ours.

Well, that's not making sweeping generalizations at all.

(I have nothing against PsyDs--I'm applying to two, and interviewing at at least one.).
 
Well, that's not making sweeping generalizations at all.

(I have nothing against PsyDs--I'm applying to two, and interviewing at at least one.).

well i didnt mean to over generalize. my apologies. but its hard not to become defensive when you are attacked in the way that people were in this thread!!
 
Since moving to the US, I've noticed a cultural difference between here and Canada. Specifically, Americans seem more eager to interpret mere disagreement as a personal attack.

If you say you like Fords because of XYZ, and I say that Toyotas have XYZ too, it's not a personal attack.
 
Hi, folks!

I'm glad this thread was started! I tried to start a PsyD application thread a few weeks ago but it was moved to the main PhD thread and left there to wither and die...

I'm very excited to report that I have interviews at 4 of 4 programs I applied to!! I am eager to hear what experiences people are having with interviews, I know some schools have already held them. My first is on February 22nd.

Looking forward to finding out where ya'll are on your application journey and to get some tips/feedback from people.

(I'm not even going to touch the PsyD/PhD thing. Hoping we can get this discussion back on its original track.)
 
Since moving to the US, I've noticed a cultural difference between here and Canada. Specifically, Americans seem more eager to interpret mere disagreement as a personal attack.

If you say you like Fords because of XYZ, and I say that Toyotas have XYZ too, it's not a personal attack.

What are you talking about? What are you even referring to?
 
What are you talking about? What are you even referring to?

The multiple recurrent assertions that people are personally attacking PsyDs on this thread. I'm not sure how that's unclear.
 
I think this is a good point.

How many students around now do you think have even read Meehl? How many fewer understand it? How many people are on the other side of the Why I don't attend case conferences paper? I'm betting that program type moderates the answers to those questions.

Maybe I misunderstood this post. What exactly were you trying to say in your above comment?

I'm just not seeing the similarity between your car analogy and your statements.

The multiple recurrent assertions that people are personally attacking PsyDs on this thread. I'm not sure how that's unclear.
 
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Do all of us PsyD people need to leave this forum and start our own facebook page? geez

I just wanted to get some advice from others applying or in PsyD programs.

Any PsyD applicants got interviews yet? I was told by my admissions counselor at my top school that it would be a week before interview invites went out. I hate waiting!!
 
I applied to a 4/5/1 split of PhD, PsyD and MA programs. The MA is at the New School for Social Research, which is only potentially tied to their PhD, so the actual split is more like 50/50 PhD to PsyD. The credentials meant little to me. I chose these ten thanks to a comprehensive rating system of my own devising. It all boiled down to who is promoting a philosophy and mission I am most passionate about. I simply could not endorse the prospect of pretending to promote an ideal of value-free scientific observation. I refused to settle for 4-6 years of "eh, close enough," waiting for the day of liberation when I could go out and do my own thing.

The upshot is I've been invited to interview at my #1 and #2 PsyD programs, and was rejected at a tied-for-top-choice PhD program. That leaves the other tied-for-top-choice PhD program and the New School unaccounted for, while the rest have apparently fudged their rejections because I've heard nothing yet they've invited masses of other applicants to interview. If I get offered no additional invitations (gulp), and if (GULP) I get accepted to at least one of the two PsyD programs, it could be argued that the PsyD chose me (dang that sounds too much like John Locke talking about the island in LOST.). 😉
 
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I wish you the best of luck Buzzwordsoldier, and I hope you end up with a program that is truly an excellent fit for you regardless of the few letters that will end up behind your name! I applaud your openness to considering Psy.D., Ph.D., and even MA programs as you move forward in your education. I have the sense that, as many of the university-based Psy.D. programs become increasingly competitive and balanced in terms of the research and clinical training offered, it will become more of a norm to see applicants make choices about applying to programs based more on individual fit and preferences than in perceived discrepencies in the values of the different degrees. Good luck with the interviews!
 
Do all of us PsyD people need to leave this forum and start our own facebook page? geez

I just wanted to get some advice from others applying or in PsyD programs.

Any PsyD applicants got interviews yet? I was told by my admissions counselor at my top school that it would be a week before interview invites went out. I hate waiting!!
I got an interview for two of the PsyD schools I applied to, one rejection and I still have to hear back from two schools (though I am aware people have already recieved acceptances from these two schools).

I am hoping I am going to be getting a late interview acceptance and not necessarily a rejection.

This process is so stressful!!
 
i applied to 4 psyds and 2 phds. the phds were equally balanced between clinical and research. i applied to them just in case, because the option of full funding is of course attractive, yet knowing full well that they might be more research focused than i really wanted to be. i am primarily interested in a psyd because i want to first and foremost be a clinician. i love being a therapist (i have been since i finished my masters degree in 2008). while i really like research, and have lots of ideas for studies, i don't want to be an academic. i can see myself being a clinician first and maybe having a research project here and there in the future. i chose psychology because i love working with people, and i love helping them make a difference in their lives. i feel that a psyd would equip me best for a lifetime doing this work.

Hi lamorena. Just curious. What was your master's degree in? I'm trying to transition from non-pysch BA to a Ph.D. eventually. (I know this is a Psy.D. thread, sorry 😛 I'm not anti-Psy.D. or anything) But...am just curious what your master's was in since you said you were able to be a therapist after. I'm torn between getting a general masters to up my research/doctorate chances, and getting a more "practice" oriented master's to at least give me something clinical/practice-worthy to fall back on in case I can't get into doctorate as soon as I'd like. Curious to hear what has worked for other people.👍
 
Hi lamorena. Just curious. What was your master's degree in? I'm trying to transition from non-pysch BA to a Ph.D. eventually. (I know this is a Psy.D. thread, sorry 😛 I'm not anti-Psy.D. or anything) But...am just curious what your master's was in since you said you were able to be a therapist after. I'm torn between getting a general masters to up my research/doctorate chances, and getting a more "practice" oriented master's to at least give me something clinical/practice-worthy to fall back on in case I can't get into doctorate as soon as I'd like. Curious to hear what has worked for other people.👍


I have a master's in Clinical and Counseling Psych. One can earn a license to practice (LPC, LMFT, etc.) with this degree. I am in the middle of the doctoral app process at the moment but am practicing unlicensed as a mobile therapist/behavioral specialist working with children in the meantime.
 
I have a master's in Clinical and Counseling Psych. One can earn a license to practice (LPC, LMFT, etc.) with this degree. I am in the middle of the doctoral app process at the moment but am practicing unlicensed as a mobile therapist/behavioral specialist working with children in the meantime.

Ditto. I also hold a MA (among other degrees), licensed as an LPC working as a therapist seeing children and adolescents in private practice.
 
Hi Everyone,

what can I expect from a psyD interview...has anyone gone on any yet? care to share? specifically, does anyone have any information on school-clinical child psychology psyd interviews?

thanks!
 
Hi Everyone,

what can I expect from a psyD interview...has anyone gone on any yet? care to share? specifically, does anyone have any information on school-clinical child psychology psyd interviews?

thanks!

i havent gone on one yet, but i have a couple coming up.. i'm expecting part of the focus to be on clinical work/experience.. thats all i got 🙂
 
Hi Everyone,

what can I expect from a psyD interview...has anyone gone on any yet? care to share? specifically, does anyone have any information on school-clinical child psychology psyd interviews?

thanks!

So far from my experience I would expect to answer the big 5 questions:

Why a PsyD?
Why this program/school?
What are your strengths/weaknesses?
Tell me about yourself.
What are you research interests?

Expect other predictable questions and a couple curve balls here and there. My biggest curve ball (when interviewing at a CBT oriented program) was "What would you say to a person who says to you that CBT is just a band-aid?"

Some schools do group interviews in addition to individual interviews. And some give a writing test/sample. Best advice I could give is to stay loose and expect the unexpected. Good luck.
 
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Phillydave and Anneki, thanks so much for your responses. Just curious, are you two applying for Ph.D. or Psy.D. ? (or are you in one/the other already?) Thanks.
 
So far from my experience I would expect to answer the big 5 questions:

Why a PsyD?
Why this program/school?
What are your strengths/weaknesses?
Tell me about yourself.
What are you research interests?

Expect other predictable questions and a couple curve balls here and there. My biggest curve ball (when interviewing at a CBT oriented program) was "What would you say to a person who says to you that CBT is just a band-aid?"

Some schools do group interviews in addition to individual interviews. And some give a writing test/sample. Best advice I could give is to stay loose and expect the unexpected. Good luck.

Thanks for your response...really helpful!
When they ask tell me about yourself, is it more from an academic/clinical perspective? what type of answer did you give to that question?
 
Phillydave and Anneki, thanks so much for your responses. Just curious, are you two applying for Ph.D. or Psy.D. ? (or are you in one/the other already?) Thanks.


Applying to a mix-PhD and PsyD but honestly, leaning towards the PsyD-heavily.
 
Thanks for your response...really helpful!
When they ask tell me about yourself, is it more from an academic/clinical perspective? what type of answer did you give to that question?

I agonized over that question for 2 weeks straight before my first interview. I went with the academic sandwich approach:

Academic background and clinical experience, leading into
Personal stuff, interests, free-time activities, leading back into
Research interests, where I want my doctoral training to take me, clinically and research-wise
 
PhillyDave and Annakei,

I'm just curious as to why you're pursuing the doctorate if you already have a master's degree and are working as a licensed counselor already. Just trying to get a feel for what you see as the major differences (pros/cons) between a counselor with a master's and one with a doctorate. Thanks! 🙂
 
PhillyDave and Annakei,

I'm just curious as to why you're pursuing the doctorate if you already have a master's degree and are working as a licensed counselor already. Just trying to get a feel for what you see as the major differences (pros/cons) between a counselor with a master's and one with a doctorate. Thanks! 🙂

I'm a licensed psychological associate in my state (master's in general psychology with clinical emphasis), and my two cents:

1) money
2) more opportunities
3) better training
 
I'm a licensed psychological associate in my state (master's in general psychology with clinical emphasis), and my two cents:

1) money
2) more opportunities
3) better training

Thanks for the input! Would you mind elaborating? Is the difference in salary enough to justify (1) taking the time off from full-time work to go to school for at least 2-3 more yrs (if not, more), and (2) the debt that you may incur to pay for that additional education? I find extremely variable information on possible salaries for doctoral level psychologists, but on average, I'd say they range from 60K to 120K (from what I've been able to glean). Do masters level psychologists make significantly less than that?

And what do you mean by "more opportunities"? Do you find that employers prefer to hire doctoral level psychologists? Or is it just easier for doctoral level psychologists to find patients?
 
PhillyDave and Annakei,

I'm just curious as to why you're pursuing the doctorate if you already have a master's degree and are working as a licensed counselor already. Just trying to get a feel for what you see as the major differences (pros/cons) between a counselor with a master's and one with a doctorate. Thanks! 🙂

I'm a licensed psychological associate in my state (master's in general psychology with clinical emphasis), and my two cents:

1) money
2) more opportunities
3) better training

Ditto.

I'm not a licensed counselor, however. But the difference between being a licensed psychologist and being a licensed counselor are night and day. They are two entirely different roles.
 
Thanks for the input! Would you mind elaborating? Is the difference in salary enough to justify (1) taking the time off from full-time work to go to school for at least 2-3 more yrs (if not, more), and (2) the debt that you may incur to pay for that additional education? I find extremely variable information on possible salaries for doctoral level psychologists, but on average, I'd say they range from 60K to 120K (from what I've been able to glean). Do masters level psychologists make significantly less than that?

And what do you mean by "more opportunities"? Do you find that employers prefer to hire doctoral level psychologists? Or is it just easier for doctoral level psychologists to find patients?

Some of the more lucrative roles (assessments, federal government work) are pretty much off-limits to master's level people. Also, in many states, being a master's level practioner means perma-supervision by a Ph.D. Reimbursement rates from Medicaid and such are lower for master's level practioners, too.

If you want to do *anything* federal, you *must* have a Ph.D. If you want to teach at a university or 4 year college and be eligible for a tenure track position, you *must* have a Ph.D.
 
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Thanks for the input! Would you mind elaborating? Is the difference in salary enough to justify (1) taking the time off from full-time work to go to school for at least 2-3 more yrs (if not, more), and (2) the debt that you may incur to pay for that additional education? I find extremely variable information on possible salaries for doctoral level psychologists, but on average, I'd say they range from 60K to 120K (from what I've been able to glean). Do masters level psychologists make significantly less than that?

And what do you mean by "more opportunities"? Do you find that employers prefer to hire doctoral level psychologists? Or is it just easier for doctoral level psychologists to find patients?

These are highly personal decisions that no one can answer for you – it all depends on what your long-term goals are.

If you go to a funded doctoral program, you won't have to worry about too much, if any, debt. The time that you will have to take off from work (and a PhD or PsyD typically takes 5-6 years to complete) is entirely up to you. Can you accept the circumstances of not being able to live off of a normal, 40-hour-a-week salary?

The main difference between Master's level clinicians and doctoral-level psychologists is not just salary, but about opportunity. The latter provides greater opportunity and flexibility in the field, whereas the Master's is more limiting. By "opportunities" I mean jobs, such as government-related positions, universities, etc.

Again, it depends on what you want and what you are looking for. What type of employers are you talking about? Agencies? Outpatient centers? Hospitals? University counseling centers? Private practice? What do you want to do in your career?
 
Thanks for the info! I'm making a career change and have applied to only PsyD programs, and though I'm pretty confident I made the right decision choosing the doctorate route, OCCASIONALLY I wonder if I'm crazy and should just get the masters. I'm a little older and am leaving a very lucrative job to do this... So it's good to get advice from people already in the field. Thanks! 🙂
 
These are highly personal decisions that no one can answer for you – it all depends on what your long-term goals are.

If you go to a funded doctoral program, you won’t have to worry about too much, if any, debt. The time that you will have to take off from work (and a PhD or PsyD typically takes 5-6 years to complete) is entirely up to you. Can you accept the circumstances of not being able to live off of a normal, 40-hour-a-week salary?

The main difference between Master’s level clinicians and doctoral-level psychologists is not just salary, but about opportunity. The latter provides greater opportunity and flexibility in the field, whereas the Master’s is more limiting. By “opportunities” I mean jobs, such as government-related positions, universities, etc.

Again, it depends on what you want and what you are looking for. What type of employers are you talking about? Agencies? Outpatient centers? Hospitals? University counseling centers? Private practice? What do you want to do in your career?

Trust me... In no way am I asking anyone to make a personal decision for me. Simply wondering what people's experiences have been for them since they obviously have more experience than I do in this field. If anyone else is willing to share their experiences/perspective, it would be greatly appreciated!
 
I have a question for all of you PsyD applicants, please help:

Did you guys contact POIs prior to applying? I was upset that my boyfriend had not contacted anybody before the whole application process and his response was that POIs are for PhD applicants, not PsyD... is this true?
 
yes. PsyD applicants apply to the program, not a POI
 
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough with my question. He is telling me that PhD students generally maintain contact with their POIs throughout the whole application process but that it is not necessary for PsyD students to contact POIs because their focus is not on research.
 
Alright, so I have 1 PsyD interview coming up, and although we do not chose a POI, I still mentioned a couple faculty members names in my personal statement. Would it be OK to contact them about getting their CVs ahead of time? (I don't even know if I'll be interviewing with them or not)
 
Alright, so I have 1 PsyD interview coming up, and although we do not chose a POI, I still mentioned a couple faculty members names in my personal statement. Would it be OK to contact them about getting their CVs ahead of time? (I don't even know if I'll be interviewing with them or not)

i did the same thing and mentioned some faculty I would like to work closely with (ie on my dissertation) in my PS. have you gone on the program's website? i found the CVs and more info on several faculty members on the websites of some of the programs ive applied to. that might help you..?
 
Hi I have a question about the interviews....I mentioned faculty members that I shared research interest with in my SOP as one of my reason I was attracted to the program. And, I've read a few of their articles, but should I really try to know their articles and come up with questions to ask them? Also, I don't even know if I'll be interviewed by them....

Thanks! 😀
 
Hi I have a question about the interviews....I mentioned faculty members that I shared research interest with in my SOP as one of my reason I was attracted to the program. And, I've read a few of their articles, but should I really try to know their articles and come up with questions to ask them? Also, I don't even know if I'll be interviewed by them....

Thanks! 😀

Be familiar with their research, but don't prepare as if you're going to be tested. Key word: familiar. 😉
 
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