PsyD cost

[NOLAdentist2016]

---

Members do not see this ad.

One of my siblings is currently applying to PsyD programs and I'm trying to help him out with the process. I've done some research into the schools he's looking at, but I'm still a little confused by the PsyD program, particularly about the tuition. I've been using SDN for awhile for the dental school threads and I just came across this Psych forum. Maybe someone here has some answers.

My main questions is, how do schools charge tuition? It seems like the time frame to get the degree is incredibly variable (4-7 years average), and that some schools are for-profit.On one site (Adler) it lists the first year cost around 40K, but then doesn't say anything else about the remaining years. So, do you pay on a cost per credit basis, with some other fees added in each semester as well? And how many credits are needed to get a degree? In my mind I see these schools not encouraging students to graduate so they can just keep collecting the tuition payments.

Also, do schools offer much financial aid other than just government loans? Are teaching assistanceships really enough to make a difference? To me it seems like it could provide a little extra money, but not enough to live on. I know for my graduate school (dental school), they figure that we'll make enough money and can handle the massive student loans. Therefore, they literally don't give out ANY finanacial aid other than loans. However, it doesn't seem like a PsyD is as financially lucrative of a career as dentistry. If students get in over 200K of debt for tuition and living expenses, and then get a job averaging 65K/yr, how would they ever pay off that debt (especially after taxes, insurance, CE, licensing fees, etc)?? I'm just trying to figure this out because I don't think my brother really knows the answer to any of these questions himself and I'd hate to see him drowning in all this debt. Thanks for your help!

 

[erg923]

One of my siblings is currently applying to PsyD programs and I'm trying to help him out with the process. I've done some research into the schools he's looking at, but I'm still a little confused by the PsyD program, particularly about the tuition. I've been using SDN for awhile for the dental school threads and I just came across this Psych forum. Maybe someone here has some answers.

My main questions is, how do schools charge tuition? It seems like the time frame to get the degree is incredibly variable (4-7 years average), and that some schools are for-profit.On one site (Adler) it lists the first year cost around 40K, but then doesn't say anything else about the remaining years. So, do you pay on a cost per credit basis, with some other fees added in each semester as well? And how many credits are needed to get a degree? In my mind I see these schools not encouraging students to graduate so they can just keep collecting the tuition payments.

Also, do schools offer much financial aid other than just government loans? Are teaching assistanceships really enough to make a difference? To me it seems like it could provide a little extra money, but not enough to live on. I know for my graduate school (dental school), they figure that we'll make enough money and can handle the massive student loans. Therefore, they literally don't give out ANY finanacial aid other than loans. However, it doesn't seem like a PsyD is as financially lucrative of a career as dentistry. If students get in over 200K of debt for tuition and living expenses, and then get a job averaging 65K/yr, how would they ever pay off that debt (especially after taxes, insurance, CE, licensing fees, etc)?? I'm just trying to figure this out because I don't think my brother really knows the answer to any of these questions himself and I'd hate to see him drowning in all this debt. Thanks for your help!

You should ask your sibling how 200K in debt for a median salary of 60-70k makes any kind of financial sense. Then rule is no more debt than the average 1st year salary.

 

[NOLAdentist2016]

Thank you for your helpful comment.

All I am trying to figure out is, how much does it cost to get a PsyD from a typical private institution. Their websites are incredibly vague about length of study and cost of attendance. Are scholarships/need based financial aid available?
And is 65K about right for the average PsyD job after graduation?

 

[O Gurl]

Thank you for your helpful comment.

All I am trying to figure out is, how much does it cost to get a PsyD from a typical private institution. Their websites are incredibly vague about length of study and cost of attendance. Are scholarships/need based financial aid available?
And is 65K about right for the average PsyD job after graduation?

I know it is bewildering, but your worst perception of the situation is true.

I don't know about avg. cost, but latest estimates show that 30% of PsyD's applying for internship owe at least $120K in loans. I suspect that when it is all said and done, accounting for loans during internship year, b/c most PsyD programs charge tuition for that year 🙄 and accounting for repeat applications to internship, the real number is between $150K-$200K for a PsyD. There are typically no need-based financial aid or sizeable scholarships/fellowships/assistantships.

So yeah. As dreadful as it sounds to you as a sane person who actually researches things beforehand, there are plenty of people accumulating up to $200K in debt to get a job paying an avg. of $65K in the first year.

Tell your sibling to STOP, THINK, and RUN away from a PsyD program at any non-university, non-funded professional schools

 

[KillerDiller]

Also, do schools offer much financial aid other than just government loans? Are teaching assistanceships really enough to make a difference? To me it seems like it could provide a little extra money, but not enough to live on. I know for my graduate school (dental school), they figure that we'll make enough money and can handle the massive student loans. Therefore, they literally don't give out ANY finanacial aid other than loans. However, it doesn't seem like a PsyD is as financially lucrative of a career as dentistry. If students get in over 200K of debt for tuition and living expenses, and then get a job averaging 65K/yr, how would they ever pay off that debt (especially after taxes, insurance, CE, licensing fees, etc)?? I'm just trying to figure this out because I don't think my brother really knows the answer to any of these questions himself and I'd hate to see him drowning in all this debt. Thanks for your help!

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head by pointing out the concerns with the debt to income ratio. For-profit or not-for-profit doesn't really matter, there are many free standing professional schools (Argosy, Alliant, Chicago School and the ilk) that are charging students full tuition and fees for a degree that can otherwise be obtained free. There are many fully funded PhD programs (some PsyD programs too) housed in full universities that allow students to graduate with zero or little debt. I strongly urge you to steer your sibling in this direction. I'm not sure how these professional schools typically charge tuition and fees, but many charge at least partial tuition even during years when students are on internship and being trained completely outside of the school. This results in many students graduating with 100K-200K in debt. If you don't have a concrete plan to pay this off, it can be very tricky because, you're right, the median salary is somewhere around 60-70K. To add insult to injury, these institutions often have lower than average outcomes for their students. That is, they have very poor rates of placing students in accredited internships, and have poor pass rates for the licensing exam. If you do a search on this forum for Argosy or Alliant, you will see a ton of concerns expressed about what these institutions are doing to students and to the field in general.

In short, tell your brother to head in another direction while he still can.

 

[Ollie123]

65k would likely be considered "pretty good" immediately post-licensure in this field - many will start significantly below that, especially if your brother's interest is in therapy.

It depends where you go, but in general the financial aid for PsyD programs is pretty limited, though better at university programs than the "Office park" type professional programs where yes, you will likely sink 100k at a minimum and possibly 200k or more between tuition and living expenses.

Is there a reason he is only looking at PsyD programs? Are his grades/GRE/etc. not very good? Not that all PsyD programs have a "Buy your way in" approach to admissions, but I always find it baffling when people are ONLY looking at PsyD programs and not the clinically oriented PhD programs that will pay for your tuition, give you a stipend, and provide equivalent or better clinical training than many PsyD programs.

 

[psychRA]

The financials can vary a TON depending on the type of program she's looking at. There is a huge range in the quality of PsyD programs. From my understanding (a good friend who went through this last year) places that are affiliated with a university are more likely to offer some kind of aid in the form of grants or tuition remission, and a few of the really top-notch programs (think Rutgers) do offer full tuition remission as well as assistantships. The majority will require massive amounts of loans.

Please feel free to correct me on this!

 

[KillerDiller]

By the way, if your brother is only interested in a PsyD because he doesn't want a career in research, you can share with him that there are many PhD programs that place equal emphasis on research and clinical work. Most PhD graduates actually work as clinicians, not researchers.

However, if he is not interested in doing research at all, a masters degree would allow him to perform therapy and would be cheaper than a PsyD.

 

[Cogdissonance]

What about a place like CW Post? They charge full tuition for the first 3 years only (about 40k a year) and give about 10k in aid to each student a year. Would you still run fast in the other direction? Their match rates look pretty good (85%+ at APA internships) - I'm asking mostly because I am choosing between Post and a fully funded PhD program that is in an area I really didn't like and not exactly what I am looking for in terms of a research match. I was leaning towards Post b/c I really liked it there, but after reading this thread, I'm not so sure...

 

[NOLAdentist2016]

I've tried to steer him towards to PhD in clinical psychology. They seem to be much more financially beneficial and available at more reputable insitutitions. His GPA is great, he went to a very good undergrad and his GRE is average. However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research. Apparently lots of psych professors from his undergrad agreed with him that a PsyD was a good idea. At this point it's too late in the process to steer him otherwise and there isn't any changing his mind. I'm usually the one in the family who is more practical and responsible with money matters and such, so I"m just trying to do some damage control and help him the best I can with what I think is a bad decision. I've even tried to get him to do a MSW or MEd, but a PsyD is the only thing he'll consider.

 

[erg923]

However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research.

Does he understand that:
1.) He will have to do an empirical dissertation for the Psy.D. too (sometimes they are somewhat scaled down but many are identical to what Ph.D students do)
2.) He has to compete for internship and in the job market with Ph.D. psychologists who have a marketable skill set that he will lack.
3.) The vast majority of Ph.Ds go into practice, not research/academia.
4.) Data does NOT support the long held stereotype that Psy.Ds get more clinical experience than the average Ph.D. student.
5).That scientific research is, um, kinda like the fundamental element this whole field is built on (If he is a "stats and research is yucky" person, I would prefer he go into social work or something).
6.) Psy.Ds have much poor rates of matching to APA accredited internships.
7.) He will be saddled with a $1000/month loan payment for many, many years should he should to go Psy.D. program offered at a free standing professional school (and even many university ones). The ladies might not like a guy who is drowning in debt before age 25. 🙂
8). He will, likely, accumulate over twice the amount of debt that the modal psychologist ever earns in one year.

Perhaps your parents might pull him from the clouds and into the actual price tag?

 

[Ollie123]

Second everything Erg brought up.

Of course, at some of the PsyD programs, he actually WON'T have to do an empirical dissertation. Of course, a degree from these schools will also be viewed by a great number of people in the field (including those who may be hiring in the future) as a fake doctorate, and his application will be trashed immediately upon receipt.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Second everything Erg brought up.

Of course, at some of the PsyD programs, he actually WON'T have to do an empirical dissertation. Of course, a degree from these schools will also be viewed by a great number of people in the field (including those who may be hiring in the future) as a fake doctorate, and his application will be trashed immediately upon receipt.

This. If he really doesn't want to do research, and thus ends up choosing a program that doesn't require an empirically-based dissertation, he's really going to be shooting himself in the foot.

As for the earlier poster asking about CW Post vs. a funded Ph.D. program...quite honestly, there are very, very few reasons that I personally would consider foregoing a funded offer in favor of training somewhere I'll be paying ~$100k in tuition and fees alone

 

[busybusybusy]

I'd recommend having your brother come on this forum and do a search for some of the schools he is considering. The majority of the professional schools that charge ridiculous amounts of money have been torn apart on various threads. If after learning all of the pitfalls of attending one of these types of schools from those in the field he still plans to attend one, I guess at least he's fully informed in his decision making.

 

[thepug]

I've tried to steer him towards to PhD in clinical psychology. They seem to be much more financially beneficial and available at more reputable insitutitions. His GPA is great, he went to a very good undergrad and his GRE is average. However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research. Apparently lots of psych professors from his undergrad agreed with him that a PsyD was a good idea. At this point it's too late in the process to steer him otherwise and there isn't any changing his mind. I'm usually the one in the family who is more practical and responsible with money matters and such, so I"m just trying to do some damage control and help him the best I can with what I think is a bad decision. I've even tried to get him to do a MSW or MEd, but a PsyD is the only thing he'll consider.

My guess is those professors he spoke with were not clinical psychologists. If they were, I can pretty much guarantee you that they are PhDs who went to fully-funded programs, many of which got their degrees before the PsyD was even created or when it had just been created.

Thus, they lack perspective. I'm not saying ignore your elders, but realize they can sometimes be out of touch.

 

[thepug]

I'd recommend having your brother come on this forum and do a search for some of the schools he is considering. The majority of the professional schools that charge ridiculous amounts of money have been torn apart on various threads. If after learning all of the pitfalls of attending one of these types of schools from those in the field he still plans to attend one, I guess at least he's fully informed in his decision making.

No it's called foreclosure. He is committed to his decision, but the logic is still disjointed.

 

[Duck Duck Goose]

Does he understand that:
1.) He will have to do an empirical dissertation for the Psy.D. too (sometimes they are somewhat scaled down but many are identical to what Ph.D students do)
2.) He has to compete for internship and in the job market with Ph.D. psychologists people who have a marketable skill set that he will lacks.
3.) The vast majority of Ph.Ds go into practice, not research/academia.
4.) Data does NOT support the long held stereotype that Psy.Ds get more clinical experience than the average Ph.D. student.
5).That scientific research is, um, kinda like the fundamental element this whole field is built on (If he is a "stats and research is yucky" person, I would prefer he go into social work or something).
6.) Psy.Ds have much poor rates of matching to APA accredited internships.
7.) He will be saddled with a $1000/month loan payment for many, many years should he should to go Psy.D. program offered at a free standing professional school (and even many university ones). The ladies might not like a guy who is drowning in debt before age 25. 🙂
8). He will, likely, accumulate over twice the amount of debt that the modal psychologist ever earns in one year.

Perhaps your parents might pull him from the clouds and into the actual price tag?

Important to add to this:
9) He'll be required to complete an internship to earn his degree and, depending on the standards of his program, he may be unable to obtain one. Without an internship, he can't get the degree that he will likely be more than $100,000 in debt for by the time he realizes this.

I say this as someone in a professional university based PsyD program with about 23k tuition for 3 years and 600-4000 every year after that until graduation (low years are for the internship year, higher years are for non-internship but pre-graduation). Go to appic.org, click on the match tab, click on match statistics, and check out the APPIC applicant survey from last year's match. 50% of PsyD students have $120,000 in debt *just from graduate study in psychology*, not counting any other debt, at the time that they apply for internship (when they still have, best case scenario, 18 months left in their programs and that tuition to pay). So anyone entering any PsyD program has better-than-not (pretty excellent, considering the odds of other things happening in life) chance of being more than $100,000 in debt in 4 years. Also check out the department of labor's info on psychologist salaries. Average (across the field, regardless of experience) is $65,000.

I'm more than happy to talk to anyone via PM about ways to achieve their professional goals (whatever they may be) without attending an unfunded PsyD program. I wish that I had known the Masters level options existed for someone who just wanted to do therapy. (At least it seems like more people are aware of these things these days, so that's good... or maybe I was just particularly dumb.)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research.

If he has no interest in research....he should not be pursuing doctoral training. Period.

 

[cara susanna]

^ This.

 

[voyeurofthemind]

Of course a fully funded PhD program is ideal but I am happy with my choice for the PsyD route. I am lucky to have some margin of help with my living expenses so it is just tuition at this point. I am definitely more at peace with my decision after watching colleagues who are great applicants cycle through the app cycle 2-3 times. You could argue the opportunity costs of delaying entry into a doctoral level career by those 2-3 years. Does it all even out, probably not but it does help me rest a little better with my choice. I am pleased with my education thus far. And yes, I do plenty of research. And no, I don't think stats or research is icky by any means.

 

[lava12345]

I've tried to steer him towards to PhD in clinical psychology. They seem to be much more financially beneficial and available at more reputable insitutitions. His GPA is great, he went to a very good undergrad and his GRE is average. However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research. Apparently lots of psych professors from his undergrad agreed with him that a PsyD was a good idea. At this point it's too late in the process to steer him otherwise and there isn't any changing his mind. I'm usually the one in the family who is more practical and responsible with money matters and such, so I"m just trying to do some damage control and help him the best I can with what I think is a bad decision. I've even tried to get him to do a MSW or MEd, but a PsyD is the only thing he'll consider.

I felt like your brother when I was an undergrad. I thought stats was scary, research was scary, and all I wanted to do was help people. So then I applied to a bunch of PsyD programs my senior year of college. I got into 3, and realized that even with the "scholarships", I would be in debt up to my eyeballs. So I decided to get a job as a research assistant to see if maybe the PhD route was better. And guess what... I ended up loving research, once I was doing it and it wasn't this scary monster in my closet anymore. I am now at a fully-funded PhD program, on track to have a research career (hopefully ). Does your brother have any research experience to be able to even gauge whether he likes research or not?

If he can *tolerate* research, have him look at PhD programs that are a 3-4 on the Insider's Guide. He can suffer through his thesis and dissertation and then never do research again after graduation. There are in fact many graduates of my program that do just that, and they have great clinical careers.

If research of any variety is completely intolerable to him, and he has experience to back that up, then he should be looking into Master's level degrees.

 

[Zen Master]

I find it weird that you are on these boards asking questions that your sibling should be asking for himself.

 

[lava12345]

I find it weird that you are on these boards asking questions that your sibling should be asking for himself.

It sounds like the OP's brother is not listening to their concerns about the PsyD. I think the OP is just trying to get more information to present to their brother. If the brother is truly foreclosed about this decision, he wouldn't feel the need to be looking on this message board.

 

[Zen Master]

It sounds like the OP's brother is not listening to their concerns about the PsyD. I think the OP is just trying to get more information to present to their brother. If the brother is truly foreclosed about this decision, he wouldn't feel the need to be looking on this message board.

Still weird. I managed 20-somethings for 10 years in my corporate career and had helicopter parents contact me about their adult offspring's performance. Now there are helicopter *siblings*? Seriously, this is crackers.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I've tried to steer him towards to PhD in clinical psychology. They seem to be much more financially beneficial and available at more reputable insitutitions. His GPA is great, he went to a very good undergrad and his GRE is average. However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research. Apparently lots of psych professors from his undergrad agreed with him that a PsyD was a good idea. At this point it's too late in the process to steer him otherwise and there isn't any changing his mind. I'm usually the one in the family who is more practical and responsible with money matters and such, so I"m just trying to do some damage control and help him the best I can with what I think is a bad decision. I've even tried to get him to do a MSW or MEd, but a PsyD is the only thing he'll consider.

Try to get him to read this board. Lots of valuable info here. He might be especially interested in the "would you do it again" thread. Spoiler alert: most of us said no.

Dr. E

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Try to get him to read this board. Lots of valuable info here. He might be especially interested in the "would you do it again" thread. Spoiler alert: most of us said no.

Dr. E

Agreed, although I think those types of threads do tend to attract negative responses (much in the same way that restaurant/business/product reviews often disproportionately attract the people who are upset with the service they received rather than the people who were happy with the outcome).

 

[KillerDiller]

What about a place like CW Post? They charge full tuition for the first 3 years only (about 40k a year) and give about 10k in aid to each student a year. Would you still run fast in the other direction? Their match rates look pretty good (85%+ at APA internships) - I'm asking mostly because I am choosing between Post and a fully funded PhD program that is in an area I really didn't like and not exactly what I am looking for in terms of a research match. I was leaning towards Post b/c I really liked it there, but after reading this thread, I'm not so sure...

You're right that CW Post has better outcomes than many other programs in terms of internship rates. The cohorts of incoming students are also on the smaller end for PsyD programs, which is a good sign. However, if no other financial aid opportunities are offered you will be taking out 40K a year in loans per year. You will probably need to take out more since I doubt you can live on the 10K a year stipend. That's a lot of debt to accumulate over the course of a graduate program. You'd need to have a pretty good plan for how to pay that back going in, I'd think.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

You're right that CW Post has better outcomes than many other programs in terms of internship rates. The cohorts of incoming students are also on the smaller end for PsyD programs, which is a good sign. However, if no other financial aid opportunities are offered you will be taking out 40K a year in loans per year. You will probably need to take out more since I doubt you can live on the 10K a year stipend. That's a lot of debt to accumulate over the course of a graduate program. You'd need to have a pretty good plan for how to pay that back going in, I'd think.

Agreed. I don't know what Post charges per year after the first three years, but with many programs having an average completion time closer to 6 years (i.e., 5 + 1) than 5, I'd be hesitant to start a program that, going in, I'd know would require me to take out at LEAST ~120k (and, in reality, perhaps closer to $200k) in loans.

 

[futurepsydoc]

Agreed. I don't know what Post charges per year after the first three years, but with many programs having an average completion time closer to 6 years (i.e., 5 + 1) than 5, I'd be hesitant to start a program that, going in, I'd know would require me to take out at LEAST ~120k (and, in reality, perhaps closer to $200k) in loans.

I agree with what everyone else has stated. With respect to debt, you need to be extremely careful. Unfortunately, many students haven't a clue how costly the Free Standing Professional Schools are, as they often fail to realize that jobs in clinical psychology are not lucrative. Moreover, there is also a prevailing belief that "I am different" or "I will be one the people who will make it work." While that may have been possible several years ago when the state of the field was less competitive as compared to now, it becoming increasingly less likely that graduates from these programs will be afforded comparable opportunities than those in traditional PhD programs or University based PsyD programs. If he is committed to getting a PsyD, I would encourage him to look at university based programs only and still remain skeptical of the aid he/she will actually get in those programs as compared to PhD programs.

 

[deleted176373]

I've tried to steer him towards to PhD in clinical psychology. They seem to be much more financially beneficial and available at more reputable insitutitions. His GPA is great, he went to a very good undergrad and his GRE is average. However, he is completely against the idea of doing his PhD bc he doesn't want to do research. Apparently lots of psych professors from his undergrad agreed with him that a PsyD was a good idea. At this point it's too late in the process to steer him otherwise and there isn't any changing his mind. I'm usually the one in the family who is more practical and responsible with money matters and such, so I"m just trying to do some damage control and help him the best I can with what I think is a bad decision. I've even tried to get him to do a MSW or MEd, but a PsyD is the only thing he'll consider.

Well there is a saying, "You can't fix stupid". You are providing very sound advice, your brother seriously needs a reality check, because without a plan to pay for all this debt he's going to be a very unhappy camper unless he marries rich or wins the lottery.

It's his life, you gave him the information, now he gets to make the decision. Don't take responsibility for other peoples bad decisions. This is a bad decision, and I think the best advice you provided him was to explore the MSW route.

M

 

[wigflip]

Still weird. I managed 20-somethings for 10 years in my corporate career and had helicopter parents contact me about their adult offspring's performance. Now there are helicopter *siblings*? Seriously, this is crackers.

Perhaps the OP's brother is the OP of the thread seeking lowest-common denominator PsyD programs?

"What are the PsyD backup schools?"
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=895925

 

[anonymiss88]

So what's the final piece of advice for those of us who like OP's brother would rather go PsyD than PhD but unlike him, aren't keen to drown in debt? Get your masters in psych or social work instead? What is the average salary and debt for someone with their masters versus doctorates?

I'm starting to get the impression that the PhD is on a golden pedestal. Mostly for reasons of funding and from PsyD programs like Adler, Argosy, etc. giving it a bad name.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

So what's the final piece of advice for those of us who like OP's brother would rather go PsyD than PhD but unlike him, aren't keen to drown in debt? Get your masters in psych or social work instead? What is the average salary and debt for someone with their masters versus doctorates?

I'm starting to get the impression that the PhD is on a golden pedestal. Mostly for reasons of funding and from PsyD programs like Adler, Argosy, etc. giving it a bad name.

It really depends on your reasons for wanting a Psy.D. If you're primarily interested in providing therapy, then yes, a licensable master's may be your best (financial) bet. The yearly cost seems to be about the same as an unfunded Psy.D., but you'll be training for about 1/3 as long, so will incur roughly 1/3 the debt. I have no idea what the averages are, but if I had to hazard a guess, it'd be ~$30-40k for a master's vs. ~$120-140k for an unfunded Psy.D. As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, the average salary for a psychologist is around $65-70k, although there's a significant amount of variability depending on your credentials and the type of work you do.

The doctoral degree definitely affords greater flexibility, both clinically (e.g., by allowing for assessment) and with respect to supervisory and administrative duties. It also prepares you to conduct and critically consume research, which is a centerpiece of any doctoral-level practitioner's skill set.

However, my advice for anyone would be to do your best to find a funded position (whether it be Ph.D. or Psy.D.).

 

[NOLAdentist2016]

So it seems like the upfront cost of just tuition and fees alone will be around 120K. That's not even factoring in the average 5% tuition increase each year. Then add on another 100K for living expenses throughout the course of study (probably more).
Finally, from what I understand, the government has done away with subsidized student loans for graduate students. Now interest will begin to accrue on Day 1 of loan disbursement, so you could easily rack up another 40K just in interest while in school for 6 years.

The worst case scenario that I was picturing was absolutely true. I just assumed that since I didn't see any of you psych people talking about the insane cost of the degree than I must have made a mistake somewhere. It surely doesn't help that schools seem to just hide the cost of the degree and that prospective students don't really care to ask how much it will cost them.

And yes, I agree. This is my brother's choice and he's an adult. He would rather just not know the truth and I'm trying to be a helpful, concerned family member here and present him with the truth as well as good alternatives. Some people are better at dealing with these things than others and it's nice to give helpful advice when you can.

 

[lava12345]

I just assumed that since I didn't see any of you psych people talking about the insane cost of the degree than I must have made a mistake somewhere.

The funding at the program completely determines this. I go to to a fully funded PhD program where I pay no tuition, get $16000 a year to live on, and get free health insurance. I had to take out a few thousand in loans to cover books and fees, but that's it. It is completely possible to get a doctorate in psychology with little to no debt, but it varies widely by program and there are few (if any?) fully funded PsyD's.

 

[Minds]

The funding at the program completely determines this. I go to to a fully funded PhD program where I pay no tuition, get $16000 a year to live on, and get free health insurance. I had to take out a few thousand in loans to cover books and fees, but that's it. It is completely possible to get a doctorate in psychology with little to no debt, but it varies widely by program and there are few (if any?) fully funded PsyD's.

Does anyone know where I can find a list of fully funded PhD?

 

[thewesternsky]

Does anyone know where I can find a list of fully funded PhD?

Go here:

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/programs/clinical.aspx

Choose the PhD programs. Cross off any school named Alliant, Argosy, or anything that's not a brick-and-mortar university. Also cross off anything with an average cohort size larger than 10 students. Most of the remaining programs will be fully funded or almost fully funded.

You can also check out this book, which lists details of each program.

http://www.amazon.ca/Insiders-Graduate-Programs-Counseling-Psychology/dp/1609189329

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Go here:

http://www.apa.org/ed/accreditation/programs/clinical.aspx

Choose the PhD programs. Cross off any school named Alliant, Argosy, or anything that's not a brick-and-mortar university. Also cross off anything with an average cohort size larger than 10 students. Most of the remaining programs will be fully funded or almost fully funded.

You can also check out this book, which lists details of each program.

http://www.amazon.ca/Insiders-Graduate-Programs-Counseling-Psychology/dp/1609189329

My personal threshold would be 15 or 20, as depending on department size, there are fully-funded programs where the average incoming class will be 11 or 12 students.

Beyond that, though, I agree that the APA accreditation list can be a great place to start.

You can also begin factoring in average internship placement rates (particularly at APA-accredited sites). My low-end personal cut-off for that would likely be 75-80%.

 

[bmedclinic]

WOW! Been a long time since I looked at that list. I was seriously unaware of how many Alliant/Agrosy schools were accredited.

 

[Pragma]

My personal threshold would be 15 or 20, as depending on department size, there are programs where the average incoming class will be 11 or 12 students.

Beyond that, though, I agree that the APA accreditation list can be a great place to start.

You can also begin factoring in average internship placement rates (particularly at APA-accredited sites). My low-end personal cut-off for that would likely be 75-80%.

I'm hesitant to even go as high as 10. Programs not controlling their class size is a huge problem. MAYBE if it was an enormous department I could see 10-12. But anything above that would totally water down the quality of the students coming in, the quality of the training, and also does a disservice to an already oversaturated field. .

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm hesitant to even go as high as 10. Programs not controlling their class size is a huge problem. MAYBE if it was an enormous department I could see 10-12. But anything above that would totally water down the quality of the students coming in, the quality of the training, and also does a disservice to an already oversaturated field. .

I suppose part of it depends on what you're used to, and on how the department handles things. If you have 6-7 professors each taking, say, 2 students/year (or 3-4 one year and 0 the next), then voila, you're at your average of 10-12. My former program, for example, I believe falls around there somewhere, although I haven't checked the actual numbers for a few years now.

Perhaps an even more informative metric, though, would be average number of students and/or average cohort size per full-time advisor.

 

[Pragma]

I suppose part of it depends on what you're used to, and on how the department handles things. If you have 6-7 professors each taking, say, 2 students/year (or 3-4 one year and 0 the next), then voila, you're at your average of 10-12. My former program, for example, I believe falls around there somewhere, although I haven't checked the actual numbers for a few years now.

Perhaps an even more informative metric, though, would be average number of students and/or average cohort size per full-time advisor.

If I was choosing mentors, I would choose the mentor that takes 1 per year over the one that takes 4 per year hands down. The mentoring quality has to suffer at some point when more students are taken. I am sure some advisors are better than others, but I would assume that only the ones with funding/resources to get more support around them could adequately and successfully juggle that many new students per year and also maintain their other responsibilities.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If I was choosing mentors, I would choose the mentor that takes 1 per year over the one that takes 4 per year hands down. The mentoring quality has to suffer at some point when more students are taken. I am sure some advisors are better than others, but I would assume that only the ones with funding/resources to get more support around them could adequately and successfully juggle that many new students per year and also maintain their other responsibilities.

I would certainly agree, which is why looking into the funding situation would be a must, as would hearing current students' opinions of the mentoring being received. In my (potentially distorted) mind, the average number of new students per advisor per year at fully-funded programs would be somewhere between 1 and 2. No clue what the actual value is, although if an advisor were regularly taking many more than this, I'd certainly want to be sure current students feel they're receiving adequate attention.

I've personally seen incoming cohorts of 3 and 4 for one advisor work out well on multiple occasions, but it's been with advisors who are established (e.g., tenured), and thus have a good bit of experience in mentoring as well as potentially-reduced pressure. These advisors would also tend not to take a class the following year.