PsyD need to connect with some who has completed PsyD

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bluehorse

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Hello! I've completed my master's in clinical psychology from India. I will be applying to PsyD in clinical psychology program for Fall 2021. I wish to connect with current or graduate PsyD students. Thank you.
 
International students don't qualify for federal aid. So, this person may have the cash. PhD programs are possible, but international students may be at a disadvantage given the popularity.
 
WisNeuro said:
The only real question you need to answer, is how much loan money you can secure, and how much of your life do you want to push back as you deal with the debt. Why aren't you considering PhDs?
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I've put a lot of thought into it. I am inclined towards practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist. With regards to the fee, I accept the given fact and also aware of the debt students incur post-completion. I don't have much funds but trying various ways.
 
Sanman said:
International students don't qualify for federal aid. So, this person may have the cash. PhD programs are possible, but international students may be at a disadvantage given the popularity.
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Held bent on a PsyD program. Thanks! 🙂
 
bluehorse said:
I've put a lot of thought into it. I am inclined towards practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist. With regards to the fee, I accept the given fact and also aware of the debt students incur post-completion. I don't have much funds but trying various ways.
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Thats a true outcome of PhD and PsyD.
PhD = cheaper, funded, better training, better reputation, 99% going to be in practice after graduation


Is there specific information you are wanting to gain from talking to current students?
 
bluehorse said:
I've put a lot of thought into it. I am inclined towards practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist. With regards to the fee, I accept the given fact and also aware of the debt students incur post-completion. I don't have much funds but trying various ways.
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Vast majority of PhDs are practicing clinically. And, majority of these are fully funded. You may have some costly misconceptions of PhD vs PsyD.
 
bluehorse said:
I've put a lot of thought into it. I am inclined towards practicing as a licensed clinical psychologist. With regards to the fee, I accept the given fact and also aware of the debt students incur post-completion. I don't have much funds but trying various ways.
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There are many misconceptions about postgraduate study in clinical psychology. Many of these misconceptions come from predatory training programs that mislead students into believing that they must have debt to become psychologists. Nothing can be further from the truth. There is no need to go $150,000+ in debt. Unlike physicians, psychologists in North America do not make enough money to justify taking on debts at similar levels to medical schools. As the other posters have said, the overwhelming majority of psychologists graduating from Ph.D. programs are in clinical careers, and they incur very little debt (for living expenses) or none at all. In fact, there has been research showing that people graduate from Ph.D. programs with more clinical hours than people from Psy.D. programs, so Psy.D. programs do not necessarily offer "better" or "more" clinical training.
 
Thanks for the above comments. I really appreciate it. From what I've heard PhD are research-oriented while PsyD focuses on training. Thanks once again
 
I think it's time to stop beating a dead horse (no pun intended 🙂), ok, maybe just a little)
What scares me most about people similar to OP is that so many future psychologists get so spooked about the scary "R-word" that they flee in any direction but that. I understand this perspective, since I had the urge to run away so many times. However, I often feel that, as a profession, we should find some way to communicate to current students that research isn't all that bad and how it's so useful even if you just go purely clinical afterwards. This is a realization that I got way later in my life, which didn't do me any service.

Back on point - OP, you came to a forum full of prospective/current clin psych students and graduates of these programs, but you don't seem to be open to their advice. No matter what, for a doctoral degree, you need some research competence. A PsyD might seem more applied, but it might just be an illusion. There are plenty of programs out there that can train you to be a competent clinician, without torturing you with research, and that come with less/no debt. And to be honest, unless you are somehow fully self-funded, as an international student it's going to be very difficult to get all of the loans you need to survive a diploma-mill PsyD.
Just my 2cents. Best of luck!
 
bluehorse said:
Thanks for the above comments. I really appreciate it. From what I've heard PhD are research-oriented while PsyD focuses on training. Thanks once again
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This is categorically, unequivocally untrue. A lie that costs many students hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 
albatross_at_crossroads said:
I think it's time to stop beating a dead horse (no pun intended 🙂), ok, maybe just a little)
What scares me most about people similar to OP is that so many future psychologists get so spooked about the scary "R-word" that they flee in any direction but that. I understand this perspective, since I had the urge to run away so many times. However, I often feel that, as a profession, we should find some way to communicate to current students that research isn't all that bad and how it's so useful even if you just go purely clinical afterwards. This is a realization that I got way later in my life, which didn't do me any service.
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This topic might be worth a separate thread. I've been curious about this myself, since, as you said, it's fairly common for undergraduate students to become extremely averse to research and I don't think that should be happening. Is it because of bad experiences in their coursework? Research methods and statistics classes might be a bit of a shock compared to other content courses. Is it because many undergraduate experiences in a lab do not approximate graduate-level research work? I can see someone tasked with grunt work not being enthused with research, even though understandably research training is scaffolded and depends on that intimacy with the data first. If students were somehow taught to enjoy the process and application of research more, then predatory Psy.D. programs wouldn't have as much of a foothold with that marketing strategy, right?
 
WisNeuro said:
This is categorically, unequivocally untrue. A lie that costs many students hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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And a lie that you frequently find on the websites, FAQs, marketing materials of PysD professional schools. I had, objectively, more therapy and assessment training in my funded Ph.D. training program than any of the students from the "local" well know professional school (hint- named after the brother of a famous author 😉 ) whom I have supervised or worked with. The research was in addition to the clinical training. I'd also say that, subjectively, it was better clinical training.

OP- Many of those programs you're looking at are, first and foremost, businesses. As such, their primary goal is to get enough to tuition to function, grow, and- in some cases- profit. They have entire departments set up to assist them in achieving that goal. Beware anybody you are conferring with regarding admissions to a doctoral program who do not themselves hold a doctorate in clinical/counseling psychology.
 
bluehorse said:
Thanks for the above comments. I really appreciate it. From what I've heard PhD are research-oriented while PsyD focuses on training. Thanks once again
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WisNeuro said:
This is categorically, unequivocally untrue. A lie that costs many students hundreds of thousands of dollars.
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I'll second and third this. Any reputable PsyD program will also have a reasonable research component (it cannot be avoided). How do you think we learn to do what we do? Evidence-based protocols (and knowing how to evaluate the efficacy & safety of different therapies) are the foundation of practicing clinical psychology. (If you ever wind up in a psychodynamically-oriented training program, you will hear "process over content," which means the process of what you're doing is going to generally outweigh the content of information exchanged...to make lasting changes. And this process comes through evidence-based clinical research, by others and your own.)
 
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Hmm not sure why there is so much tension about this. OP was (thoughtfully) asking to connect with those getting a degree of OP's interest, not to get into a debate about which degree is better or worse. As a PsyD grad (who has worked/trained with PhD students), I dont necessarily agree with all the comments above, but to each their own.

Anyway, I am a PsyD grad in clinical psychology and am happy to help however I can, Bluehorse. Feel free to PM.
 
AOpsych said:
Hmm not sure why there is so much tension about this. OP was (thoughtfully) asking to connect with those getting a degree of OP's interest, not to get into a debate about which degree is better or worse. As a PsyD grad (who has worked/trained with PhD students), I dont necessarily agree with all the comments above, but to each their own.
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This is Old Guard surveillance...we do this to lessen the misconception that research experience is not needed for a valid PsyD. We also don't want to flood the professional field with sub-par for-profit degrees and individuals who think research is not a vital part to training to be an effective clinician, regardless of PsyD or PhD (so you may have detected a somewhat less than flowery attitude in the responses). Yes, everyone has an opinion, and there are certainly effective clinicians without 5 first-authored manuscripts, but the research experience (& deliberation that comes with it) helps, n'est pas?
 
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AOpsych said:
Hmm not sure why there is so much tension about this. OP was (thoughtfully) asking to connect with those getting a degree of OP's interest, not to get into a debate about which degree is better or worse. As a PsyD grad (who has worked/trained with PhD students), I dont necessarily agree with all the comments above, but to each their own.

Anyway, I am a PsyD grad in clinical psychology and am happy to help however I can, Bluehorse. Feel free to PM.
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1. Who said some the commenters above were not PsyDs as well?

2. What is it you disagree with exactly?
 
In threads like these, I sometimes wonder if it would be just as effective to have the average graduate of a PsyD professional program without a significant research component, with the average debt load specifically of professional programs weigh in on their experience and what they observed around them. Although they may not be able to compare quality to other programs, they may be able to at least weigh in on the professional futures of the average graduate with debt and how it has affected them and those around them. Of course we would hope that the person would be able to maintain some level of objectivity about their experience.

Occasionally we have an exception to the rule making a high salary pop in and claim it’s rosy, but what about the average experience?

I think part of the issue is also that PhD graduates (or assumed PhD graduates) are often dismissed outright because they answer immediately and are seen as biased from the start and aren’t answering the original request from the OP. I’m not saying I agree with being dismissed, as many folks here have real-world experience and have worked with PsyDs side by side and have important info to share, but I wonder if that’s why PhDs or assumed PhDs are dismissed in these threads and many PsyD graduates are afraid to speak up?
 
Only speaking from my own experience, I had plenty opportunity to engage with research and do my own. I feel that I have the same amount of knowledge in research and EBTs as PhD and that it was just as valued. I have also felt, working with PhD, that some did have less clinical experience( obv dependent on the program). I just feel that these PsyD vs. PhD things are a little bit unnecessary and a way to pit equally qualified people against each other, and for what actual purpose? Also, I do know of some PsyD programs that are "diploma mills" but this is a generalization and leads to perpetuating this argument. Even now, i would still take the route i did and would not discourage others from doing the same. I would also not discourage a PhD program because they are also great. Just don't feel that any doctoral level psychologist is less than another.
 
AOpsych said:
Only speaking from my own experience, I had plenty opportunity to engage with research and do my own. I feel that I have the same amount of knowledge in research and EBTs as PhD and that it was just as valued. I have also felt, working with PhD, that some did have less clinical experience( obv dependent on the program). I just feel that these PsyD vs. PhD things are a little bit unnecessary and a way to pit equally qualified people against each other, and for what actual purpose? Also, I do know of some PsyD programs that are "diploma mills" but this is a generalization and leads to perpetuating this argument. Even now, i would still take the route i did and would not discourage others from doing the same. I would also not discourage a PhD program because they are also great. Just don't feel that any doctoral level psychologist is less than another.
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Considering that these are the ones with high double and sometimes triple digit admissions, pumping a large portion of all PsyD graduates, it isn't a generalization, it's simply the modal example. There are reputable PsyDs, and they happen to have much smaller class sizes, similar to PhDs. They are the exception, not the norm, statistically.
 
AOpsych said:
I would also not discourage a PhD program because they are also great. Just don't feel that any doctoral level psychologist is less than another.
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I hope I did not imply this. I have several key mentors who had PsyDs (during grad school, internship, & fellowship). I consider both degrees (from reputable institutions) to be equal, with all things considered. We always want to elevate the level of training and discourse, and expect more from each other (and our field).
 
AOpsych said:
...I would also not discourage a PhD program because they are also great. Just don't feel that any doctoral level psychologist is less than another.
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Unfortunately, the marketing materials from some very well known professional schools don't necessarily seem tho share your approach or views. See the following for an example that includes more "untruths" than facts:

Clinical Psychology PsyD Program, PsyD vs. PhD - William James College

What are the advantages of a PsyD over a PhD? How does a PsyD differ from a PhD? Dispelling the PsyD myths.
www.williamjames.edu
 
ClinicalABA said:
Unfortunately, the marketing materials from some very well known professional schools don't necessarily seem tho share your approach or views. See the following for an example that includes more "untruths" than facts:

Clinical Psychology PsyD Program, PsyD vs. PhD - William James College

What are the advantages of a PsyD over a PhD? How does a PsyD differ from a PhD? Dispelling the PsyD myths.
www.williamjames.edu
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From the link, they seem to do their best to imply that their clinical training is superior. From reading this description and the “myths” section, if you didn’t know about the field, you’d walk away assuming that PhDs are more research/academica-focused and subpar clinical training compared to PsyDs. Really unfortunate and misleading information.
 
AOpsych said:
Hmm not sure why there is so much tension about this. OP was (thoughtfully) asking to connect with those getting a degree of OP's interest, not to get into a debate about which degree is better or worse. As a PsyD grad (who has worked/trained with PhD students), I dont necessarily agree with all the comments above, but to each their own.

Anyway, I am a PsyD grad in clinical psychology and am happy to help however I can, Bluehorse. Feel free to PM.
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Hello!
Thanks for connecting. I am unable to start a conversation with you. I don't know what's the issue. Lemme know how else I can connect with you?. Thanks once again! 🙂
 
albatross_at_crossroads said:
What scares me most about people similar to OP is that so many future psychologists get so spooked about the scary "R-word" that they flee in any direction but that. I understand this perspective, since I had the urge to run away so many times. However, I often feel that, as a profession, we should find some way to communicate to current students that research isn't all that bad and how it's so useful even if you just go purely clinical afterwards
Click to expand...

Honestly, I think the problem lies in a misunderstanding of what a psychologist does, and which degree most appropriately matches up with their career goals. Way too many undergrads are approaching psychology as, "I want to provide therapy." And for someone who only wants to provide therapy, a doctoral program in psychology is overkill and not appropriate, but no one is stopping these folks to say, "Hey, can I interest you in counseling / MFT / social work?" Not to imply that masters level clinicians shouldn't be good consumers of research, but so many of my undergrad supervisees/patients don't understand that the practice of clinical psychology is SO much more than doing some DBT once a week.
 
albatross_at_crossroads said:
I think it's time to stop beating a dead horse (no pun intended 🙂), ok, maybe just a little)
What scares me most about people similar to OP is that so many future psychologists get so spooked about the scary "R-word" that they flee in any direction but that. I understand this perspective, since I had the urge to run away so many times. However, I often feel that, as a profession, we should find some way to communicate to current students that research isn't all that bad and how it's so useful even if you just go purely clinical afterwards. This is a realization that I got way later in my life, which didn't do me any service.
Click to expand...

I only got involved with research as an undergrad to "check off the box" for clinical psych doctoral program admissions. Then I ended up falling in love with it!
 
Temperance said:
In fact, there has been research showing that people graduate from Ph.D. programs with more clinical hours than people from Psy.D. programs, so Psy.D. programs do not necessarily offer "better" or "more" clinical training.
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Citation? I don't mean that to be challenging, I am simply encouraging the posting of citations if we say something along the lines of "research shows".

Although I earned a PsyD "back in the Stone Age" as my college-student daughter likes to tease me, I agree with the gist of the comments in this thread, i.e., the diploma mills have hurt the profession and a lot of people; there are many great PhD programs, and some great PsyD programs; and the difference between the PhD and PsyD in clinical psychology has lessened over the years.

For example when I was at Baylor (1986–1989) a dissertation was not required and the program took four years, including internship. Now it's a five-year program, a dissertation is required, and your 4th year is all about research and writing your dissertation.

All the best,

Mark

P.S. I just thought of a great example of the PhD - PsyD big difference myth. One of my classmates at Baylor, Deborah D. Roman, PsyD, ABPP-CN, is Director, Division of Adult Neuropsychology, Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, and an Associate Professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School, where she trains medical students, resident physicians, and fellows, as well as students enrolled in allied health programs and psychology. And she does some research too.

Roman, Deborah D. "The role of neuropsychology on organ transplant teams." Archives of Clinical Neuropsychology 33, no. 3 (2018): 339-343.

Roman, Deborah D., Erin G. Holker, Emil Missov, Monica M. Colvin, and Jeremiah Menk. "Neuropsychological functioning in heart transplant candidates." The Clinical Neuropsychologist 31, no. 1 (2017): 118-137.

Deborah Roman

med.umn.edu med.umn.edu
 
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mdwpsyd said:
Citation? I don't mean that to be challenging, I am simply encouraging the posting of citations if we say something along the lines of "research shows".

Although I earned a PsyD "back in the Stone Age" as my college-student daughter likes to tease me, I agree with the gist of the comments in this thread, i.e., the diploma mills have hurt the profession and a lot of people; there are many great PhD programs, and some great PsyD programs; and the difference between the PhD and PsyD in clinical psychology has lessened over the years.

For example when I was at Baylor (1986–1989) a dissertation was not required and the program took four years, including internship. Now it's a five-year program, a dissertation is required, and your 4th year is all about research and writing your dissertation.

All the best,

Mark

P.S. I just thought of a great example of the PhD - PsyD big difference myth. One of my classmates at Baylor, Deborah D. Roman, PsyD, ABPP-CN, is Director, Division of Adult Neuropsychology, Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, and an Associate Professor at the University of Minnesota Medical School, where she trains medical students, resident physicians, and fellows, as well as students enrolled in allied health programs and psychology. And she does some research too.

Roman, Deborah D. "The role of neuropsychology on organ transplant teams." Archives of Clinical Neuropsychology 33, no. 3 (2018): 339-343.

Roman, Deborah D., Erin G. Holker, Emil Missov, Monica M. Colvin, and Jeremiah Menk. "Neuropsychological functioning in heart transplant candidates." The Clinical Neuropsychologist 31, no. 1 (2017): 118-137.

Deborah Roman

med.umn.edu med.umn.edu
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As far as the clinical hours fact, APPIC has this summary data available. It's been a pretty reliable statistic over the years.
 
Baylor is also an exceptional outlier, along with Rutgers, in terms of PsyD programs. Both have a strong research component in their PsyD programs from what I've heard from colleagues. It's interesting that 2 of the best PsyD programs tend to also be research-oriented and offer more funding to their students...
 
These predatory programs have social work programs as well. It's up to the student to choose wisely. I know many people who choose these programs for doctorate as the only real requirement is $$$
 
jltpsyd said:
Graduated with my psyd last year, feel free to msg me
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Hi!

I messaged you on October 11 as well as on 9th December. Please, lemme know if you haven't received my messages. Will do the needful. Thanks!
 
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