PsyD or PhD decision to be made in hours- pls help!

[skeptic07]

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Hi there-

Clearly by the title of my thread I am desperate for some advice! A little about myself: My professional interests involve biofeeback as it applies to individuals suffering from chronic pain/ illness. My goals involve private practice upon completion of my degree, and eventually obtaining adjunct or tenure positions as my career in private practice slows. I graduated from Pace University in NYC with an MA this past May and was accepted to two schools- PCOM (philladelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine) for a Clinical PsyD, and Alliant International University (CSPP) for a Clinical PhD. My orignial plan was to seek a PhD (my PCOM application was a backup), however after experiencing an intense interview, familiarizing myself with supportive staff and embracing the medical nature of the program, I found myself taken with PCOM. HOWEVER, I want to teach eventually, and I definately do not want the scrutiny of professionals that dont feel that a PsyD is good enough beyond completion of a hard earned degree (you know they're out there). I would prefer the PhD, but I have heard terrible things about Alliant- being that it's a professional school, there are negative conotations associated with the program. Plus, from my personal experience with the administration and staff, they have been very unorganized.

So I guess what Im really trying to ask is:

Does going to a good PSyD program (assuming PCOM is a good school for the PsyD degree??) trump going to a sub-par (again, assuming) PhD school at AIU?

Will going to a better school regardless of the degree earned help my career?

I truly only have a matter of hours to make the decision as classes begin in 2 weeks! eek! Your input is truly welcomed.

Thanks so much!

 

[lakewood]

I don't know much about either program, but my understanding is that it's not as important *which* degree you earn, but rather what you've done to deserve it.

If you are interested in academia, you would want a research emphasis I would imagine. Some PsyD programs are heavily research oriented despite what you might think, and if your CV is full of publications then who can criticize your credentials? If you have tons of research experience even with a PsyD, you are better qualified for a research career. So it depends on the specific program. At least that's how I understand it.

So I would think it comes down to which school fits your long term goals. I would not worry so much about which letters will follow your name, but rather which program is a better fit.

Also, finances are often a major consideration with most PsyD programs, but also at some PhD programs that are not funded. That tuition discrepancy in itself is the basis for much bias against the PsyD. So ultimately, that is a personal decision and not something many people can answer for you.

You can't make a wrong decision.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I turned down a professional school for a PhD because they were so incredibly disorganized and unhelpful. I couldn't imagine dealing with that for 4, 5, or 6 more years.

I would say go with the PsyD. If you love the program and school, you'll be much happier. I know nothing about that particular school but if you feel it will be well recognized when you're done, go for it. If you conduct research while in private practice I'm sure that you'll be able to get an adjunct job later in your career. Just keep a foot in the door while you're in private practice.

Best of luck. Remember, you can always turn down both offers and take a year off. Quite a few people on here have done that and they seem to be happy with the decision. I know it's a tough one.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Oh and of course compare price tags! That can be really a huge factor in your happiness in grad school. If you're broke you won't be a happy camper.

 

[psychplease]

.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

PsyDs can teach, and do it quite well...but if you are looking for tenure track, etc.....a PhD is probably your best choice (academia is slow to change, and since academia is still heavily research, it seems to make sense). That being said....I'd pass on Alliant. Again, if you want to be a career academic....your path of least resistance to that end goal is through a research oriented PhD from a traditional program. Some do it other ways, but there are more hurdles.

Just my 2 cents.

-t

 

[skeptic07]

Thanks so much for your input. I did consider taking a year off, but the thought of getting behind is a little frightening, and I dont know how else I'd improve my application in the meantime (I had some great letters of rec, etc). So rather than wait a year, I thought Id suck it up. At Alliant I was accepted into a health track that focuses on biofeedback- what I am pursuing for a career- should that make a difference in my decision?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sure it can make a difference....but only you can say for sure. Hopefully other people can chime in and give their 2 cents. I'm not looking to academia for a position, so my view may be different than those who want to work in the area.

-t

 

[JockNerd]

Well, it seems from the first post as though the OP read through some of the old threads (I assume you found this one? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-380662.html)

I think the negativity toward Alliant and other professional schools is primarily directed at what graduating that many doctoral-level clinicians will do to the profession and the impact of the debt for people who go to the programs. Some people (me included) would say that the huge class sizes and lower acceptance standards neccessaily mean that many students in professional schools will be of lower quality than grads of traditional programs. I recall a thread a while back on how easy it is to "coast" in those programs and still pass everything. That's certainly not to say that that everyone who graduates from those programs will be a poor clinician--I'm certain many are great. If that program works for you, go for it--no one is begrudging individual students' choices. If they have exactly what you want and it's reasonably specialized, you may very well do quite well.

SERIOUSLY look at the cost of the program and what clinicians in that field make. Look at how much debt you will accrue (I think CSPP is one of the potentially >$150k schools). I don't know if debt is an issue for you or not.

Look at internship placement rates. If you want to be a clinician, this is vital. Alliant tends to have poor APPIC/APA match rates. Looking at their data, seems most people get those California placements. I think (T4C will know) that those mean you can only practice in Cali. Here are the match rate stats http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_match_about_statistics.html.

I don't know about that long-term plan. I'm sure you could get an adjunct position, but those pay notoriously poorly. Full prof? You'd have to be producing research throughout your clinical career for this to even be possible, and even then a university is pretty unlikely to tenure-track a person who's going to retire in a few years....

To improve your application you'd have to take a year to do research, then reapply to funded programs. Most people who graduate from traditional programs practice, despite that PsyD = clincian, PhD = researcher/academic stuff.

Good luck with your decision!!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

To the OP - turn off your computer, grab a bowl of ice cream, sit down and talk to yourself. No not in a crazy way. I just think you need to really think about what YOU want. Which program feels better for you? Neither? Both? It's up to you. Either program can get you where you want to go if you know how to get there and if you work hard. The fact that you don't want to go STRAIGHT into teaching makes this less of a life-or-death decision in my opinion. You have your whole private practice career to establish yourself and then you can apply for teaching positions and I bet you'll get them if you've contributed important things to the field.

From your original post it sounded like you were leaning towards the PsyD program, but who knows if I interpreted the typing properly. We can give you our personal opinions of Alliant or PsyD programs but what really matters is your own opinion. How would you feel graduating from either program?

Let us know what you decide!

 

[skeptic07]

Jock nerd- thanks for being so thorough; that thread on Alliant was new to me ( I had no idea they didnt review my GRE or GPA upon accepting me..I sent in my transcripts and test scores..weird) That forum totally turned me off of Alliant, but as I have been reviewing both schools into the wee hours here (I can't stop Raynee Deigh! But Im about to take your suggestion to relax!- overanalyzing much?!), I have found that CSPP San Diego has a higher match rate than PCOM, and has also been APA approved for 13 years now as opposed to PCOM's mere 4. Anyone have any dirt on PCOM's PsyD??

In response to some specific questions- both schools will cost roughly the same in tuition. Debt is something I'll definately become familiar with, but Im hopeful that my education will be worth such the imminent burden. Additionally, my goals are flexible in that I wouldnt mind doing adjunct work in conjunction with private practice, or aiming for tenure sooner.
I think I may have been leaning toward PCOM...an hour ago (this is how it's been for two months now- constant back and forth!!). However, at the moment I feel that being a personal understudy of a distinguished professor even though the program is obviously sup-par may have it's worth...

What Im actually thinking now is to go to AIU and try to transfer to a traditional school for the next academic year. Thoughts on this plan?

Apologies if my abstract thinking is driving any of you crazy- I so appreciate your help. I realize this is ultimately my decision based on my own opinion..Im not sure why it's so hard though. You would think that one finds some clairty that eventually leads to a gut feeling at least..waiting for that epiphany🙂

 

[positivepsych]

If you're thinking about a tenure-track job AT ALL, don't go to Alliant or get a Psy.D. Academia is competitive enough as it is, and those degrees will get you nowhere. People have discussed the ONE tenured professor with a PsyD, but he's the freak exception to the rule, and a PhD from Alliant is not better.

Alliant particularly has a poor reputation for being a "degree mill," which will hurt you in getting a university job. Graduates from the top programs like UCLA or Yale have a hard enough time getting an assistant professor job, while I know of very little Alliant/PsyD grads getting professorial positions in real universities (they quite often go back and teach at... surprise, surprise! Alliant... for practically no pay).

Personally, I would go to neither. You'll be paying back your student loans for decades, with how the job market is now even for private practice psychologists. You're also going to have a hard time transferring after a year. Wait a year, build your resume, and go to a real school. Why close the doors of opportunity so early in your career, simply because you're in a rush?

 

[skeptic07]

good points pp.. let me ask why you feel that I wouldnt be moving forward by staying at AIU/PCOM and transferring the following year? I would be getting the same research experience as a student at either school as I would if I were to find an RA poistion..right? or wrong? Just a sincere quesiton as I've got my foot somewhat in the door at these schools and it would seemingly take more effort to look for research positions, and actually obtain one. Are you suggesting that actually attending the school to get research would hinder my success at transfering?

PS) Lets say hypothetically, I decide not to do Tenure and just stick to adjunct. Does your advice to stay away from both schools still stand?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Look at internship placement rates. If you want to be a clinician, this is vital. Alliant tends to have poor APPIC/APA match rates. Looking at their data, seems most people get those California placements. I think (T4C will know) that those mean you can only practice in Cali. Here are the match rate stats http://www.appic.org/match/5_2_2_match_about_statistics.html.

From my understand (far from infallible), many of the placements in CA are CPA approved, but not APA approved. This means that for people who want to stay in CA, they can get licensed without a problem. For those who want to leave the state and get licensed somewhere else, they will have to jump through a number of hoops. It isn't impossible, though it is a PITA. Whichever state you choose, you will have to prove that the site offered proper training/supervision, the # of hours you receive, and that you are a competent clinicians, etc. With an APA-approved site, you can just have the site sign off on all of your hours, training, etc....and that should suffice. There are also certain jobs that require an APA approved program. More competitive jobs can use APA approval (university and/or internship) as a rule out.

In short....it is best, if possible, to just go to an APA-approved university, and an APA-approved internship and post-doc.

PS) Lets say hypothetically, I decide not to do Tenure and just stick to adjunct. Does your advice to stay away from both schools still stand?

Adjuncting would be much more forgiving. You could work your way up, but there are no guarantees that you'd get a more permanent position. Many universities are cutting back on full tenured positions, and it seems more competitive. I'm not in the area, so I'll defer to others who are more familiar with it.

-t

 

[positivepsych]

Even if you want to be a clinician, you shouldn't go. I'll provide relatively objective, quantitative reasons:

1) Match Rate for CSPP - San Diego is 49.1% (less than 1 in every 2 students match to internship):
CLINICAL 49.1% Matched, 30.6% Not Matched, 20.4% Withdrawn

You need an internship to get a PhD, and its just going to make your life harder. A quality school has a match rate of 90%+.
Also, many clinicial positions (VA, any job with the Fed Gov.) require an APA-approved internship, which is even harder to get coming out of CSPP.

2) You will graduate with a huge amount of loans, which will financially burden you for life , and impede your credit to buy a home. Here's the loan repayment for $150,000 at 8.5% interest (current Fed PLUS loan rate, from finaid.org). If you pay back your loans at 15-10% of your adjusted gross income, you need to be making $148-$223K a year as a psychologist in order to pay it back and live comfortably. There's very little chance you will ever make that much. That's why professionals schools are a financial disaster:

Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 8.50%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 10 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,859.79
Number of Payments: 120

Cumulative Payments: $223,173.92
Total Interest Paid: $73,173.92

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 119 payments of $1,859.79 plus a final payment of $1,858.91.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $223,174.80 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $148,783.20, but you may experience some financial difficulty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More realistically, if you're making $70,000 a year, and you contribute 20% of your monthly income (which is higher than the recommended below, and qualifies as "financial difficulty"), it will take you 30 years to pay back a total of $415,000:

Loan Calculator

Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 8.50%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 30 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,153.37
Number of Payments: 360

Cumulative Payments: $415,213.57
Total Interest Paid: $265,213.57

Note: The monthly loan payment was calculated at 359 payments of $1,153.37 plus a final payment of $1,153.74.

It is estimated that you will need an annual salary of at least $138,404.40 to be able to afford to repay this loan. This estimate assumes that 10% of your gross monthly income will be devoted to repaying your student loans. If you use 15% of your gross monthly income to repay the loan, you will need an annual salary of only $92,269.60, but you may experience some financial difficulty.

3) Professional schools have no regard for the well-being of the field or their students in general. They are businesses designed to make money off your tutition, and they don't really care if you don't match for internship or have a huge amount of loans. That's why they don't have any GPA or GRE requirements, they'll accept nearly anyone who will pay. Thus, they don't care if they accept and graduate more students than the market can handle, thereby creating an oversupply and making the market even worse for their own graduates. Thus, they cripple the career opportunities of their own students! Thus, some people feel they should not be supported on an ethical basis.

 

[skeptic07]

ok guys-

I believe Ive come to the decision to defer at AIU and in the meantime reapply to some more traditional schools. I thank you all so much for your input and straight forward approach. This has been one of the most difficult decisions Iv had to make. So my concern now is that Ive been told most traditional schools take longer for completion of the degree; even 8- 10 yrs in some cases in comparison with professional schools since professional schools are less geared towards reserch. Thoughts on this? Also, because most app deadlines begin in Dec, what could I possibly do in the next 4 months that would make a difference on my application? I have a decent GRE score and a 3.8 graduate GPA. And does anyone know if I can use the same letters of rec from last year? Dont think I can build new relationships in 4 months..

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Hmmm I would say polish up your statements of purpose, try to contact some profs and introduce yourself, and maybe get some volunteer experience somewhere if you can although it's a really short time frame I know.

I haven't heard that traditional schools take longer... I think it really depends on the individual. Most programs are designed to be four years and then an internship (as far as I know). What slows you down is if you have children, have an illness, take less courses, or do really slow research. It's definitely do-able to be in and out in five or six years. You have to remember, there are women who are having two or three kids while in grad school so that affects the averages. (Disclaimer: I totally am all for women being able to do this, I just wanted to point out what's making the numbers high).

 

[JockNerd]

I think you made a wise decision.

You have lots of options for improving your application. Beginning literally tomorrow, see if a prof in your geographical area is taking any research assistants. Ideally the prof should be in your area of interest, but it's not the end of the world if you can't find anyone who does biofeedback (that seems pretty specialized to me). I'm sure someone does pain/sensory processes/chronic illness research.

It's not a huge deal if you didn't know the prof you're working for for very long. Lots of people I know only knew their advisors for a few months when they applied.

Did you do a thesis in your undergrad? That would help. Who are your letters from?

I've heard of PhD programs taking a long time due mostly to people doing the coursework part-time or getting stalled in dissertation. It's not the norm. For example, at my school I'm on a set, firm timeline to be done coursework by the end of my fourth year.

 

[NeuroPhD]

ok guys-

I believe Ive come to the decision to defer at AIU and in the meantime reapply to some more traditional schools. I thank you all so much for your input and straight forward approach. This has been one of the most difficult decisions Iv had to make.

Ten years ago I made the same decision you just did and I think it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It took me two more years to get into a traditional PhD program. I have zero debt and when I did get into a PhD program I knew exactly what I wanted. Basically, those two years saved me around $220,000 (loans plus interest) and literally a lifetime of financial hardship. Plus, my PsyD peers (many of whom are excellent clinicians) have often commented that they felt a constant need to "prove" that they belonged in an academic medical environment. Think about your longterm plan.

Four months is a short amount of time to make yourself more competitive for a PhD program. If I were in your situation (and had the financial resources) I would consider volunteering/working in the lab of the best-known and most prolific researcher I could find. Ideally, they would be in your area of interest, but even if there was only a small connection, that would be fine. I would work incredibly hard and go above and beyond everything asked of me to convince him/her that I was serious about entering the field. You might be able to stay and enter the PhD program attached to the lab, but even if you couldn't, that researcher will have a network of friends and collegues to refer you to. In my experience, most people get into PhD programs through these kinds of connections.

Good Luck

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I've heard of PhD programs taking a long time due mostly to people doing the coursework part-time or getting stalled in dissertation. It's not the norm. For example, at my school I'm on a set, firm timeline to be done coursework by the end of my fourth year.

This is probably the most common reason why it may take longer to graduate. Stick to a firm timeline like JN, and you should be fine.

-t

 

[skeptic07]

Ive already begn looking at RA positions at various universities in my area. feel like it's gonna be a 'who you know' as opposed to 'what you know' situation trying to get into thsese schools, but if worse comes to WORSE next year I still have CSPP...I did not do a thesis, but graduated ahead of my class by a semester- dont know if that really says anything though. Im looking into UT southwestern, University of Texas at Austin, and the University of North Texas. Anyone know anything pertinent abou any of these?

I also wanted to ask if transfering from CSPP or PCOM would give me a better in to one of the aforementioned schools rather than sctrictly applying??

Apologies if this topic has become old!!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

feel like it's gonna be a 'who you know' as opposed to 'what you know' situation trying to get into these schools

Unfortunately, that's life. Most people learn to adapt and build a network of people and find ways into the positions they aspire for. I think more often than not the "what you know" gets you face time, and "who you know" can help you edge out someone who has similar stats.

-t

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Actually I think transferring may just raise more questions. It might seem kind of weird if you use a year at one school as a "stepping stone" to another. Just my opinion though, hopefully others will comment too.

My other comment is... I thought it was standard for a thesis to be completed in undergrad but I must be mistaken. In any case, if you're applying to university-based PhD programs, be prepared to answer questions about why you haven't done a thesis 'cause I have a feeling they'll ask. Hopefully you've got some research experience already under your belt.

I don't know anything about Texas schools other than they get huge amounts of applicants and are pretty selective. I looked into one (I think it was Austin) and I think their numbers were something like they take five applicants out of a pool of 300. Craziness.

I'm not sure how many schools you're looking at applying to, but I always recommend at least ten. I applied to 13 and I definitely think I should have added some more. Try expanding your research focus 'cause I'm not sure how many schools you'll find that are specific like that (although who knows, I've never looked). If you don't wanna spend huge amounts of time googling every school you can think of, try picking up a copy of the Insider's Guide 'cause they list faculty research for all schools.

 

[skeptic07]

Thanks so much for all of your responses- so very helpful!!!


Best of luck in the upcoming academic year-

YI