PsyD Program Decision

[APsyDtoB]

Hi all, I am currently trying to decide between PsyD programs I have been admitted to and was hoping to hear opinions on the programs / graduates from the programs. These programs are all accredited by the APA and have good outcome data. I am curious about their reputations in the field or really any opinions about the program structure / faculty / school itself that people have to give! I have already read all the posts saying PsyD's are too expensive to be worth it, so no need to remind me of that. Thank you! The schools are:

1. Mercer University - Atlanta (Clinical Medical Psychology)
2. Antioch University - Seattle
3. Pacific University - Adult Track
4. The Wright Institute

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[psych.meout]

Hi all, I am currently trying to decide between PsyD programs I have been admitted to and was hoping to hear opinions on the programs / graduates from the programs. These programs are all accredited by the APA and have good outcome data. I am curious about their reputations in the field or really any opinions about the program structure / faculty / school itself that people have to give! I have already read all the posts saying PsyD's are too expensive to be worth it, so no need to remind me of that. Thank you! The schools are:

1. Mercer University - Atlanta (Clinical Medical Psychology)
2. Antioch University - Seattle
3. Pacific University - Adult Track
4. The Wright Institute

I don't know if I would say that these programs have "good outcome data." The internship, attrition, cost, and other metrics don't really bear that out.

Antioch seems terrible from the stats:

https://www.antioch.edu/seattle/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/08/PsyD_outcome_data_8_16_19.pdf

Wright is slightly better, but still bad:

Clinical Program Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data

Pacific is slightly better than Wright, but still not great:

PsyD in Clinical Psychology

Provide direct mental health care as a clinical psychologist. Earn your PsyD in Clinical Psychology in our accredited PsyD program.

www.pacificu.edu

Mercer is very new and still kind of expensive, though it seems pretty good, but I'm averse to taking a risk on such a new program.

 

[psychlife19]

I found this article about antioch-seattle PsyD program from last year Former students accuse Seattle's Antioch University of deception and discrimination

Also, if you want to live in the Seattle area, be prepared to pay dolla dolla bills for living expenses. Or you can live an hour away from the school and still pay fairly expensive rent costs, but still a lil cheaper than seattle area.

 

[deleted343839]

Hi all, I am currently trying to decide between PsyD programs I have been admitted to and was hoping to hear opinions on the programs / graduates from the programs. These programs are all accredited by the APA and have good outcome data. I am curious about their reputations in the field or really any opinions about the program structure / faculty / school itself that people have to give! I have already read all the posts saying PsyD's are too expensive to be worth it, so no need to remind me of that. Thank you! The schools are:

1. Mercer University - Atlanta (Clinical Medical Psychology)
2. Antioch University - Seattle
3. Pacific University - Adult Track
4. The Wright Institute

If I had to choose between these and felt like burning through cash, I'd go with Mercer. Maybe Pacific.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If I had to choose between these and felt like burning through cash, I'd go with Mercer. Maybe Pacific.

My knee-jerk reaction is the same.

 

[R. Matey]

I am curious about their reputations in the field or really any opinions about the program structure / faculty / school itself that people have to give

Students who I have known from Pacific have felt jilted due to the high cost of the program and a lack of individual attention from faculty.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Hi all, I am currently trying to decide between PsyD programs I have been admitted to and was hoping to hear opinions on the programs / graduates from the programs. These programs are all accredited by the APA and have good outcome data. I am curious about their reputations in the field or really any opinions about the program structure / faculty / school itself that people have to give! I have already read all the posts saying PsyD's are too expensive to be worth it, so no need to remind me of that. Thank you! The schools are:

1. Mercer University - Atlanta (Clinical Medical Psychology)
2. Antioch University - Seattle
3. Pacific University - Adult Track
4. The Wright Institute

Out of these, I'd say Pacific, but honestly, I'd say none of the above. I know great psychologists from Pacific, but I get the sense that they are great in spite of it, not because of it.

 

[APsyDtoB]

I don't know if I would say that these programs have "good outcome data." The internship, attrition, cost, and other metrics don't really bear that out.

Antioch seems terrible from the stats:

https://www.antioch.edu/seattle/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2019/08/PsyD_outcome_data_8_16_19.pdf

Wright is slightly better, but still bad:

Clinical Program Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data

Pacific is slightly better than Wright, but still not great:

PsyD in Clinical Psychology

Provide direct mental health care as a clinical psychologist. Earn your PsyD in Clinical Psychology in our accredited PsyD program.

www.pacificu.edu

Mercer is very new and still kind of expensive, though it seems pretty good, but I'm averse to taking a risk on such a new program.

After speaking with the programs at interviews it seems that the APA Internship match rate for Antioch and Mercer has been 100% since they started following APA guidelines before getting accredited, which is what I was meaning by good outcome data. Also Pacific said they only had one student not match this year.
What do you think is the range for "good stats" I should be looking for?

I know they are all very expensive and it is unfortunate. I am also adverse to taking the chance on a new program like Mercer's but am attracted to the ~lower~ cost.

 

[APsyDtoB]

Students who I have known from Pacific have felt jilted due to the high cost of the program and a lack of individual attention from faculty.

Thank you, I could see that.

 

[APsyDtoB]

Out of these, I'd say Pacific, but honestly, I'd say none of the above. I know great psychologists from Pacific, but I get the sense that they are great in spite of it, not because of it.

Why would you say none? What are good PsyD programs in your opinion?

 

[PsyDuck90]

After speaking with the programs at interviews it seems that the APA Internship match rate for Antioch and Mercer has been 100% since they started following APA guidelines before getting accredited, which is what I was meaning by good outcome data. Also Pacific said they only had one student not match this year.
What do you think is the range for "good stats" I should be looking for?

I know they are all very expensive and it is unfortunate. I am also adverse to taking the chance on a new program like Mercer's but am attracted to the ~lower~ cost.

According to the outcome data on Antioch-Seattle's website, their APA-accredited internship match rate has never been 100%. The highest was 56% in 2017. APPIC and APA are not the same thing. This past year was 44%. These are really abysmal numbers, especially given there are about equal numbers of APA-accredited internship spots and students.

 

[APsyDtoB]

According to the outcome data on Antioch-Seattle's website, their APA-accredited internship match rate has never been 100%. The highest was 56% in 2017. APPIC and APA are not the same thing. This past year was 44%. These are really abysmal numbers, especially given there are about equal numbers of APA-accredited internship spots and students.

Yes that is true, I know. I was very turned off by these numbers and almost didn't go to the interview, but was very pleased I did. It was there that I was told that this past year they had a 100% APA internship match rate, but I am concerned as to why it was so much lower before. I will do some more digging.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Yes that is true, I know. I was very turned off by these numbers and almost didn't go to the interview, but was very pleased I did. It was there that I was told that this past year they had a 100% APA internship match rate, but I am concerned as to why it was so much lower before. I will do some more digging.

These types of programs are known to be predatory. I would honestly be hard-pressed to believe those numbers until I see them in print. If they had a magic formula to suddenly go from 44% to 100%, why did it take this long? Typically, you would expect an upward trajectory, not a sudden spike.

 

[Sanman]

These types of programs are known to be predatory. I would honestly be hard-pressed to believe those numbers until I see them in print. If they had a magic formula to suddenly go from 44% to 100%, why did it take this long? Typically, you would expect an upward trajectory, not a sudden spike.

Their average years to completion have nearly doubled since 2015, going from 4-5 to between 7-8. Are students paying 35k × 8 years?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

The general take home message is avoid high debt programs. The board tends to support taking a year or two off to improve chances of getting into a low-debt program (there are many, including PsyD programs).

 

[R. Matey]

The general take home message is avoid high debt programs. The board tends to support taking a year or two off to improve chances of getting into a low-debt program (there are many, including PsyD programs).

OP, Take this advice seriously. I followed it after a round of professional school applications and am now graduating a Ph.D. program without debt. It can be done.

 

[psych.meout]

After speaking with the programs at interviews it seems that the APA Internship match rate for Antioch and Mercer has been 100% since they started following APA guidelines before getting accredited, which is what I was meaning by good outcome data. Also Pacific said they only had one student not match this year.
What do you think is the range for "good stats" I should be looking for?

I know they are all very expensive and it is unfortunate. I am also adverse to taking the chance on a new program like Mercer's but am attracted to the ~lower~ cost.

I don't know what you mean by this. "Since they started following APA guidelines before getting accredited?"

Yes that is true, I know. I was very turned off by these numbers and almost didn't go to the interview, but was very pleased I did. It was there that I was told that this past year they had a 100% APA internship match rate, but I am concerned as to why it was so much lower before. I will do some more digging.

You were "told?" Look, I get that you are really excited to get started on grad school, but these people are looking to sell you something to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars. Unless you have have some kind of evidence to back this up, you shouldn't take their word for it. Also, you should be incredibly suspicious that they suddenly jumped from 44% to 100% in a single year. Do you really think that the program changed so much in a single year or that there was such a great disparity in the quality, interviewing skills, etc. between two adjacent cohorts?

They're either intentionally misleading to you or they've done something deceptive like established a captive internship site. Poor quality programs will create their own accredited internship site and then have only their students match to it so that they can artificially inflate their match statistics without having to actually do anything to improve the quality of their program. This is a huge red flag.

Also, their attrition rates are troubling.

 

[APsyDtoB]

I don't know what you mean by this. "Since they started following APA guidelines before getting accredited?"

I misspoke. I thought that their match rates had gone up in the past couple of years when they changed their program style to fit APA guidelines. I have a lot of schools / numbers in my mind that are getting muddled. Mercer is newly accredited like Antioch, but their data is much better.

You were "told?" Look, I get that you are really excited to get started on grad school, but these people are looking to sell you something to the tune of a couple hundred thousand dollars. Unless you have have some kind of evidence to back this up, you shouldn't take their word for it. Also, you should be incredibly suspicious that they suddenly jumped from 44% to 100% in a single year. Do you really think that the program changed so much in a single year or that there was such a great disparity in the quality, interviewing skills, etc. between two adjacent cohorts?

They're either intentionally misleading to you or they've done something deceptive like established a captive internship site. Poor quality programs will create their own accredited internship site and then have only their students match to it so that they can artificially inflate their match statistics without having to actually do anything to improve the quality of their program. This is a huge red flag.

Also, their attrition rates are troubling.

I really do not think that a program could change that much in a year, that is why I came here for advice. I get that they are trying to sell me something, but can they really just bald-faced lie like that if the true data is going to come out soon anyways? They do not have a captive internship so I do know it is a red flag. Thank you for your input.

 

[APsyDtoB]

OP, Take this advice seriously. I followed it after a round of professional school applications and am now graduating a Ph.D. program without debt. It can be done.

Thank you. @DynamicDidactic I have already taken 3 years off since undergraduate during which I figured out that I wanted to pursue clinical work over research. I have had experienced in both, but my research work has been as a RA and I have no published work or any poster presentations or anything like that under my belt. I applied to one PhD program this year, albeit at the last minute because of extenuating circumstances, and I was not even offered an interview. So I am just nervous about how long it will take me to be competitive for a Clinical PhD and if being "miserable" like my current Psyc PhD student coworkers are is worth it for 6+ years. Do you have any suggestions for well-balanced / clinically leaning Clinical PhD programs?

 

[Sanman]

I really do not think that a program could change that much in a year, that is why I came here for advice. I get that they are trying to sell me something, but can they really just bald-faced lie like that if the true data is going to come out soon anyways? They do not have a captive internship so I do know it is a red flag. Thank you for your input.

Sure they can, many of the recruiters are paid to fill seats, not be honest. Do you have any proof that they said that to you? So if it is a lie and you enroll, what then? Don't think it could happen? a lot of people said this could not either:

Graduate and professional students at now-closed Argosy University campuses struggle to find new education options

 

[psych.meout]

I really do not think that a program could change that much in a year, that is why I came here for advice. I get that they are trying to sell me something, but can they really just bald-faced lie like that if the true data is going to come out soon anyways? They do not have a captive internship so I do know it is a red flag. Thank you for your input.

As Sanman wrote, unless you have something on paper from them, it's your word against theirs. They can just say you misheard or misunderstood them. That they're emphasizing the most recent match rate that they didn't substantiate, weren't up front about their poor track record, and didn't explain the stark discrepancy between the two should be huge red flags and enough to remove them from consideration.

Thank you. @DynamicDidactic I have already taken 3 years off since undergraduate during which I figured out that I wanted to pursue clinical work over research.

Most graduates from clinical psych PhD programs are in some kind of clinical roles, even those from clinical science-oriented programs. This narrative of PhDs being for researchers and PsyDs for clinicians is a false dichotomy perpetuated by these kinds of programs to justify their existence and convince naive applicants that going into substantial debt is the only path to their goals.

I have had experienced in both, but my research work has been as a RA and I have no published work or any poster presentations or anything like that under my belt. I applied to one PhD program this year, albeit at the last minute because of extenuating circumstances, and I was not even offered an interview. So I am just nervous about how long it will take me to be competitive for a Clinical PhD

The time required to improve your CV to be competitive for clinical programs is dwarfed by the time and opportunity costs to pay off the >$150,000 in debt you'd accrue through these programs.

and if being "miserable" like my current Psyc PhD student coworkers are is worth it for 6+ years.

I don't know that PsyD students are any less "miserable" than PhD students. Personally, I know I'd be far more miserable in my PhD program if I was also worrying about the hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt looming over me.

Do you have any suggestions for well-balanced / clinically leaning Clinical PhD programs?

Buy Norcross' Insider's Guide.

 

[Newropsych]

Yes that is true, I know. I was very turned off by these numbers and almost didn't go to the interview, but was very pleased I did. It was there that I was told that this past year they had a 100% APA internship match rate, but I am concerned as to why it was so much lower before. I will do some more digging.

I think they may be referring to their overall match rate (e.g., those who obtained any internship), which is 100%. However, if look at the stats of how many matched to an APA-accredited internship, you’ll see that it’s really low.

Over the past so many years, the overall rate is, yes, 100% but the rate for obtaining an APA-accredited internship, which is typically the minimum standard, is really low.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PsyDr]

A few of the dumbest psychologists I’ve met went to Pacific. Followed by LIU. Followed by whatever argosy is now.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

There are many accredited PsyD programs that do not rely on tuition dollars to keep the school afloat.

You want to look for small cohort sizes, low tuition costs, and high APA match rates. Some that come to mind (and I’m sure there are more):
University of Houston Clear Lake
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
West Chester
Rutgers
Baylor

 

[R. Matey]

I have already taken 3 years off since undergraduate during which I figured out that I wanted to pursue clinical work over research. I have had experienced in both, but my research work has been as a RA and I have no published work or any poster presentations or anything like that under my belt.

I'll add that this is not an uncommon position applying for clinically balanced Ph.D. programs in my experience. Assuming you're a traditional college student, I was a few years older than you when I started my Ph.D. You could probably either defer or reapply to Pacific or one of those other ones, and also apply to Ph.D. programs and see. Worst case scenario is you spend a year trying to improve your chances only to end up where you started, but at least you could say that you tried.

 

[Mama Bear]

There are many accredited PsyD programs that do not rely on tuition dollars to keep the school afloat.

You want to look for small cohort sizes, low tuition costs, and high APA match rates. Some that come to mind (and I’m sure there are more):
University of Houston Clear Lake
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
West Chester
Rutgers
Baylor

Indiana State PsyD appears to have some funding and alright stats.

 

[WisNeuro]

A few of the dumbest psychologists I’ve met went to Pacific. Followed by LIU. Followed by whatever argosy is now.

Right now it's just a bunch of shuttered buildings and former faculty who will have trouble finding real jobs.

 

[APsyDtoB]

There are many accredited PsyD programs that do not rely on tuition dollars to keep the school afloat.

You want to look for small cohort sizes, low tuition costs, and high APA match rates. Some that come to mind (and I’m sure there are more):
University of Houston Clear Lake
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
West Chester
Rutgers
Baylor

I have looked at a lot of those schools, but I did not want to live in the NE or attend a non-secular school, so I know that limited my options a lot. I did not know about UHCL though, thank you. I bought the Insider's Guide and wow do I wish I knew this existed a year ago.

 

[APsyDtoB]

As Sanman wrote, unless you have something on paper from them, it's your word against theirs. They can just say you misheard or misunderstood them. That they're emphasizing the most recent match rate that they didn't substantiate, weren't up front about their poor track record, and didn't explain the stark discrepancy between the two should be huge red flags and enough to remove them from consideration.

I emailed the program director, so we will see soon if they lied / if they have a good explanation for the unbelievable bump in the stats.

Buy Norcross' Insider's Guide.

Bought it. I wish this was given as a gift to all psychology undergrads at graduation.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

but I did not want to live in the NE or attend a non-secular school

At the end of the day we all have to make difficult decisions. As long as those are informed decisions it’s all cool. We just want to give you the info and you can decide what is more important to you.

If you prioritize region and secularness of schools be aware you will sacrifice other elements.

Anecdotal but every psychologist I know that has graduated from good programs with high debt (e.g., Yeshiva with PhD or Loyola Maryland with PsyD) has regretted the debt. Especially if you find yourself working with other psychologists that had very different training experiences and don’t have the stress of debt.

Good luck on your endeavor.

 

[APsyDtoB]

At the end of the day we all have to make difficult decisions. As long as those are informed decisions it’s all cool. We just want to give you the info and you can decide what is more important to you.

If you prioritize region and secularness of schools be aware you will sacrifice other elements.

Anecdotal but every psychologist I know that has graduated from good programs with high debt (e.g., Yeshiva with PhD or Loyola Maryland with PsyD) has regretted the debt. Especially if you find yourself working with other psychologists that had very different training experiences and don’t have the stress of debt.

Good luck on your endeavor.

Thank you! I am doing my best to make the most informed decision I can. I appreciate your input.