PTSD and Stellate Ganglion Blocks

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

10KHertz

Full Member
2+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
477
Reaction score
303
Hello:

New to this forum. I am a board certified Pain Medicine MD.

I have been seeing patients that are interested in stellate ganglion blocks (cervical sympathetic chain) for PTSD, depression, anxiety, etc.
Most of these patients found my practice due to the specificity/complexity of this procedure. Apparently, a '60minutes' CBS piece and a Podcast has sparked interest in this procedure for the aforementioned conditions.

I have done my due diligence and cannot find literature supporting SBGs for these indications, nor does insurance cover this clinical benefit. Subsequently, have offered patients; TMS (transmagnetic therapies) with a psychiatric group, acupuncture, and neuropathic medications. But mainly I turn them away...

I was just wondering what the forum members experience and/or understanding of SGBs for PTSD and what pathological mechanisms are hypothesized? thanks for your comments and input. cheers

Members don't see this ad.
 
The data was published two days ago in JAMA Psychiatry, you can read it here. I don't know of any places which offer it clinically, just the VA's which were researching it.

If I had to guess about the mechanism, maybe by working as a longer term beta blockade?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It is unfortunate that SGB is being hyped up for PTSD so much online and on television at this early juncture. I've had a few veterans express dissatisfaction and disgust that the VA is not providing SGB already. To be fair, these same folks are smoking weed like there is no tomorrow, seeking relief from that instead of doing the difficult work of therapy.

The article in JAMA Psychiatry on November 6th isn't actually all that impressive to me, showing only moderate improvement in PTSD at 8 weeks. I'm concerned this study isn't very generalizable since only 113 active duty military members were the population, also for this short duration of time.
I'll be more interested when they complete the proposed year long study with a larger and more diverse population. Until then, I consider it the flavor of the month. Most likely it will end up like vagal nerve stimulation in usage for depression - too expensive, too inconvenient, too many adverse events, and not helpful enough to justify use in most patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
Members don't see this ad :)
113 active duty military members
I'll have to read the article but that alone severely limits generalizability/applicability to any other clinical population. There's a huge incentive to avoid any psych drugs as they disqualify all sorts of active duty jobs (at least while they are being titrated.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The JAMA study is very preliminary. Plus, it doesn't address possible side effects of the SGB; like VT from bundle branch blocks, decreased diaphragmatic function ( several hours), Horner's syndrome, etc. These risks need to be addressed in the context of long term clinical benefits ( BTW 8weeks seems very transient). Thanks for the input...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
There is a relatively recent VA evidence brief here: Evidence Brief: Effectiveness of Stellate Ganglion Block for Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) - VA Evidence Synthesis Program Evidence Briefs - NCBI Bookshelf

"Emergence of an intervention’s first randomized trial is always a highly anticipated event. For SGB, however, findings from its first randomized trial for PTSD proved to be disappointing. In uncontrolled, unblinded, retrospective case series, SGB for PTSD had high rates of rapid clinical improvement in PTSD symptoms (70% to 75%). In the RCT, the range of mean percent PTSD improvement after one round of SGB was 5.4% to 14.7%, and was 12.1% to 21.2% after the second round, which was no better than an injection of saline. "

Looking through the evidence (including the newly published JAMA Psychiatry article) I would consider SGB for PTSD to be investigative at this point, not an evidence-based treatment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
There is a relatively recent VA evidence brief here: Evidence Brief: Effectiveness of Stellate Ganglion Block for Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) - VA Evidence Synthesis Program Evidence Briefs - NCBI Bookshelf

"Emergence of an intervention’s first randomized trial is always a highly anticipated event. For SGB, however, findings from its first randomized trial for PTSD proved to be disappointing. In uncontrolled, unblinded, retrospective case series, SGB for PTSD had high rates of rapid clinical improvement in PTSD symptoms (70% to 75%). In the RCT, the range of mean percent PTSD improvement after one round of SGB was 5.4% to 14.7%, and was 12.1% to 21.2% after the second round, which was no better than an injection of saline. "

Looking through the evidence (including the newly published JAMA Psychiatry article) I would consider SGB for PTSD to be investigative at this point, not an evidence-based treatment.


I think it's absolutely fascinating that so many of these treatments have such a dramatic placebo effect. And I don't know how or even if we could exploit it for real therapeutic gains.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I think it's absolutely fascinating that so many of these treatments have such a dramatic placebo effect. And I don't know how or even if we could exploit it for real therapeutic gains.

Like E. Fuller Torrey said, if there was a way we could reliably induce it, the "Edifice Complex" (I am going to see a Doctor in a Big Time Hospital) would be one of better interventions.
 
I think it's absolutely fascinating that so many of these treatments have such a dramatic placebo effect. And I don't know how or even if we could exploit it for real therapeutic gains.

You drill holes in people's brians and stick metal in and decide that you don't need to bother with placebo controlled trials because the placebo of not turning on the device is so damn good you can't beat it.

Make I should start a homeopathic ketamine clinic!
 
Pain fellowship psychiatrist here. I was part of the study and have performed 100+ of the blocks for active duty service members. Happy to answer any questions. Part of the effect is placebo of course, like anything else, but for the right patient it is a game changer. Watch the 60 minutes video. A 3 star General and a Medal of Honor winner are not your usual veterans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Pain fellowship psychiatrist here. I was part of the study and have performed 100+ of the blocks for active duty service members. Happy to answer any questions. Part of the effect is placebo of course, like anything else, but for the right patient it is a game changer. Watch the 60 minutes video. A 3 star General and a Medal of Honor winner are not your usual veterans.
So what is "the right patient"?
How concerned are you about Horner's syndrome?
 
Horner's syndrome means you did the block right. So we pretty much expect it, not considered an adverse event. In my setting, right patient has h/o combat exposure, mostly hyperarousal, IRRITABLE, motivated, engaged in some psychotherapy.
 
Horner's syndrome means you did the block right. So we pretty much expect it, not considered an adverse event. In my setting, right patient has h/o combat exposure, mostly hyperarousal, IRRITABLE, motivated, engaged in some psychotherapy.

Did any of these patients try evidence-based psychotherapy for PTSD (or is that what you meant by "engaged in some psychotherapy"?)
 
Did any of these patients try evidence-based psychotherapy for PTSD (or is that what you meant by "engaged in some psychotherapy"?)
The majority have. We get many referrals from Psychologists, especially the one running the PTSD IOP.
 
The majority have. We get many referrals from Psychologists, especially the one running the PTSD IOP.
Why right sided SGB over left?
What series is necessary , set of three like CRPS?
What happens after the 2-4 weeks of clinical benefit? Recurrent PTSD, exacerbati?
What was your confirmatory measure that the procedure was performed correctly? Horners ,thermal changes?
Did you have patients sign a waiver that the procedure is not FDA approve and experimental for your indications?
What’s your long term hypothesis of the procedure and future recommendations?


Just have several patients contacting me ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It is unfortunate that SGB is being hyped up for PTSD so much online and on television at this early juncture. I've had a few veterans express dissatisfaction and disgust that the VA is not providing SGB already. To be fair, these same folks are smoking weed like there is no tomorrow, seeking relief from that instead of doing the difficult work of therapy.

The article in JAMA Psychiatry on November 6th isn't actually all that impressive to me, showing only moderate improvement in PTSD at 8 weeks. I'm concerned this study isn't very generalizable since only 113 active duty military members were the population, also for this short duration of time.
I'll be more interested when they complete the proposed year long study with a larger and more diverse population. Until then, I consider it the flavor of the month. Most likely it will end up like vagal nerve stimulation in usage for depression - too expensive, too inconvenient, too many adverse events, and not helpful enough to justify use in most patients.
Hi there. I just came across your post today. I wonder if you know that many many times, even with "the hard work of therapy," with ptsd and s-ptsd, there is no end, no recovery, and no relief. Medically and Psychologically speaking from experience, over 30 years under my belt of more kinds and types of therapy than you might imagine, the intrusive, debilitating symptoms keep coming, repeat their instances, and your words in quotes sound very judgemental, and imply the hard work of therapy is/will cure. That, unfortunately, for as many as not, simply is bad advice. I cannot say that the publishing of the ganglion block by 60 minutes/The VA via research, etc., is misleading, successful or unsuccessful, because as with most mental/neuroligical illnesses, even MD's, who have learned some things about PTSD et al, have little real-world clue. Bear with me, please? The effects of ptsd on post surgical care, L&D, and chronic pain is profound. All the brain registers is having been compromised by gen anesthesia, recovery, and so on, so it hyper-ramps pain signals in efgort to protect; to move. For instance, double tkj replacements make moving around, and commanding ones body and environment, which quells that automomic response, nearly unplausable for most medical profesdionals to comprehend, the hospitals are 9/10ths about their liability, and so, the patientbis given benzos to calm them, and/or more pain meds, which only makes the patient's suffering worse. The brain fights its being compromised, and so around and around we go. Countless times, I (the patient in these examples,) after counseling the anesthesia team, surgeon, and repeating all to everyone involved in my care, I have been unable to move, but hear everything. I wake up hyper fast. I have a congenital collagen disorder, so 14 major orthopedic surgeries under my belt, I can say with every confidence, from rural farming central minnesota, to Mayo Clinic in Rochester, to Jacksonville, FL, ND, Milwaukee, WI...... the actual manifestation of jow ptsd changes the brain, is not understood by the vast majority of clinitians anywhere. There is no cure for many. I choose to view the stellate ganglion block as hopeful progress towards a cure, because no amount of hard work illicits a cure or measurable mitigation for lots of ptsd survivors. Please try to understand that by imagining yourself with ptsd, plugged into resources and therapy, and having to accept the fact that at present, its as good as it is going to get. When comparing my best days to the population without ptsd, my best, are their unemaginable worst. It is far more than clinical rotations, book learning or entire semesters dedicated to understanding it. I promise you that when you think "you know," you certainly do not know entire light-years more than what you believe you do. I promise that. I hope you find this helpful in some way, stay safe, and thank you for deciding to become a Doctor. Its definitely a calling. m.d.
 
Top