Public Health School Tuition Unsustainable?

[EpiBird]

It's amazing how tuition for obtaining an MPH has increased at some schools. BU is one school that has a high tuition (hard to discuss this topic in general), and I can't understand exactly why. Even undergraduates at BU cite the location of the school's property as a reason (yet the school technically claims non-profit status). Found two very interesting sources of info:

1. http://dailyfreepress.com/2012/02/07/bu-president-calls-tuition-costs-and-fees-unavoidable/

BU's undergrad tuition has gone up 3.8% a year over the past five years, at some point the school won't be getting the best and brightest, just those who can afford to pay the tuition, or are brave enough to get themselves into a ton debt.

2. http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/32457-is-the-debt-worth-it-for-boston-universitys-mph/

A BU alum talks about why $70,000 (after merit scholarship) isn't worth it for BU's MPH:


I don't think so but you decide for yourself. For 1.5 years of tuition not including anything else you will have $60,000 of loans to pay off. The cost of living in Boston is really high and if you get lucky and find something cheap and try to cook at home and not drink you would probably spend around $20,000 for a year and a half. The school has almost no money for student orgs, so little scholarships that you should bet on not having a chance at getting them, and no work-study jobs unless you want to become a full time employee. There is a drop in the bucket merit scholarship given to students when accepted which is usually around $10,000.

So all together the most minimum cost you are looking at is $80,000 and if you subtract the scholarship you will be in $70,000 of debt.

Is that worth it? Is Boston offering some extraordinary education that just can't be offered at a lower tuition or compensated with more scholarships?

Absolutely not!!!

Just to let you know something like 40% of the tuition from the MPH goes to the medical school. It's like the MPH is the med-school's side business. And the education structure at BUSPH does not favor students. In fact the way the classes are scheduled is detrimental to student education. The classes meet once a week for 3 hours for a 4 unit class. I never adjusted to a 3 hour class in the evenings where the teacher kept skipping through slides because she was more tired than the students. By the way there are almost no classes in the mornings. Most classes are at night. Making your way home on foot or public transport at 8 or 9pm during wenter temperatures less than 20F is torture. It is much warmer in the day during the winter. The school isn't thinking about the students.

Take note that a 4 unit class costs $5,000. If you are planning on studying international health and working in Africa... you should not tell any of the people you will be working with how much you paid for school. They will call you a hypocrite and question your ability to set priorities. In the most health deprived areas of Africa a family struggles to make annually just a forth of the money you pay for one class at BU. If you want to help Africa why spend the rest of your life making a salary off of the disparity there while paying $70,000 (not including interest) to banks. I think it would be better if you skip the MPH and donate even a small fraction of that would be loan money (even if it is on credit) to send African students to school!

The education at BUSPH is nothing you couldn't get by reading on your own, finding a mentor in public health, and volunteering/working for a public health oriented institution.

What you learn in school is not comparable to what you will have to teach yourself while working. An MPH is a professional skill building degree. It's not like you will focus on one topic and learn everything you need to know about it. Not even 2 years of is not enough time for that in an MPH especially when the quality of education for public health students is an afterthought to the institution.

Anyway you decide what is best for you. But as someone who has gone to BUSPH, who is working in public health, and who has several friends from all the major schools of public health.... I say you are a fool to think the $70,000 at BU is worth it.

I think that at some point schools that use their MPH degrees as cash cows will get to a point, (maybe already there for some), where the high tuition just doesn't make sense for a majority of aspiring MPHers.

Your thoughts?😕

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[stai]

Any sort of higher education in the US is a business for the school and book publishers. From a basic community college to most prestigious IVY schools. The education system is broken to the point where you don't have a choice but to take on debt for trying to further yourself in the world.

It doesn't matter if its a undergraduate program or a PhD, everything is meant to make money for the school.

 

[hefty]

This just means you need to be thoughtful when making decisions that will affect the rest of your financial life. Research prospective salaries for first-year grads as well as early-to-mid-career salaries. Never take out loans greater than your first year's salary. There is no MPH grad who will make $100,000 his first year out. I don't care how smart you think you are. 60-80K is an enormous stretch. Therefore, going to a school where tuition alone is 60K+ might be a poor decision.

What are your career goals? How can you use a less-expensive (ideally your state) school to make them happen? Is it doable? If not, what's the next best option?

For anyone considering taking out more than 10K in loans, plug your numbers into a student loan repayment calculator such as this one: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml
If you take out 50K, that's monthly payments of $575 for the next ten years (or $380 for 20 years. 20 years!)

 

[ms newyear]

There is no MPH grad who will make $100,000 his first year out. I don't care how smart you think you are. 60-80K is an enormous stretch.

I completely agree that the MPH is not a typically lucrative degree and the majority of grads make under 55k, but depending on your career choice you can make a salary in that range that you mentioned. It's far from impossible.

 

[EpiGirl14]

The MPH, in my opinion, is not a good stand alone degree for ambitious people. If you want to make more money, not that we are in this for the money, and have more autonomy in your career you have to have another degree. I see the MPH as a supplement to other professional degrees. It also depends on where you want to work and what you want to do in the public health arena.

Straight out of school with the MPH as our "highest" degree and little to no experience, we can expect an average salary at best (40ks?). However, if you have extensive experience and/or another advanced degreee, you can make much more than that. Concentration also plays a role, but unless you are a biostatistician, no one is offering you 60k with little to no experience straight out of school.

Eventually, down the line, you will make a decent living salary, you just have to be patient and willing to stick it out for career growth. The price tag of the degree is an investment that you have to be willing to make. Opportunity cost all that stuff 🙂 Also, most MPH holders do end up working for non-profit organizations and many for the federal government, so with 120 consecutive repayments, your remaining balance can be forgiven. Just make sure you adjust your payments for your salary and you will have something left over after the 10yrs to forgive. I do agree with the other posters here, though; don't take out 100,000k. That's far too much.

 

[Stories]

A lot of people have buyers remorse after realizing that entry level salaries are in the $50-60k range and they have $100k in loans to payback. This goes for all education, not just a MPH (or MPP, MPA, MSW, MEd, etc.), but any degree where the immediate salary is fairly low. My significant other has over $120k in loans and makes just under $60k right now. The monthly payments are over $1200/mo. It's difficult, but without the degree, the current job would not be an option as the degree was a requirement. But the alumni network is what helped get the job. Everyone has to make the choice as to whether a school's cost is worth it--for some it is, for others it isn't. There's no one size fits all. That's why we all have choice.

One word for looking up, though. You won't ever know how truly valuable your degree truly is until you're 10+ years out and you run into fellow alums or you're using skills you learned from your degree that were instrumental in your career development. Our salaries WILL go up as we get more experienced and develop our careers. $50k will NOT be your career's salary. That's a guarantee. Most of us on this forum are not old enough or removed enough yet from our degrees to know if our degrees have been worth it or not.

Regarding BU and the "education bubble": it is definitely expensive. And it probably isn't the right choice for some people. But it was certainly the right choice for me and several of my friends when we were students. But to think that BU is conning people out of their money and they're siphoning the money away from students is just speculation and something that unless you work in the administration is impossible to judge. Also, don't forget that many (if not most?) undergrads (at all universities across the US, particularly private institutions) receive substantial financial aid packages that include scholarship, grants, and loans to make up the cost of education. Look up the "education bubble". It's a fascinating theory and has supporters and opponents on both sides. Everyone needs to play the benefits/drawbacks on whether more education at what cost is feasible.

Bottom line: worth and value are subjective.

 

[EpiBird]

Regarding BU and the "education bubble": it is definitely expensive. And it probably isn't the right choice for some people.

President Obama recently announced a plan to rank colleges based on quality of education vs. the price tag. Obviously, going to an uber expensive MPH school like BU doesn't mean you'll get 2-3X the education based on the cost. So, I'm thinking BUSPH will lose federal funding and be ranked lower, (or if it just applies to undergrad then maybe BU will raise the cost of masters degrees like the MPH even more!)

Not sure if Obama's plan will go anywhere, but it could sure help level the playing field and make life easier for MPH'ers who might choose lower paying jobs with non-profits/government.

 

[EpiBird]

But to think that BU is conning people out of their money and they're siphoning the money away from students is just speculation and something that unless you work in the administration is impossible to judge.

College prices have gone up 250% over the past 3 decades, and over this amount of time family incomes grew by 16%. Even when you look back to 2007, people had higher salaries. It's not rocket science to eyeball the situation and realize that some public health schools are raking in a lot of cash, and as one former BUSPH student said, education takes a back seat and classes are taught in the evening by tired professors and students issues like commuting when it's freezing outside at night, aren't really addressed.

Obama's plan sounds like a simple equation, you have a ratio of quality to price, I think most applicants would be familiar with such an analysis as we all did it when applying!

Personally, I think that Obama's plan might force schools like BU to drop tuition in order to get a favorable rating and get more federal dollars.

Obama's support with young adults, who will have to pay more with Obamacare, is dropping like a rock. Yeah, this whole college tuition plan is probably just an attempt to try to win back lost support, and put money back in the wallets of young people, but I'm kinda skeptical that it will go anywhere. Though it will certainly open some eyes when Obama's college ratings, based on quality and cost, come out.

 

[Stories]

President Obama recently announced a plan to rank colleges based on quality of education vs. the price tag. Obviously, going to an uber expensive MPH school like BU doesn't mean you'll get 2-3X the education based on the cost. So, I'm thinking BUSPH will lose federal funding and be ranked lower, (or if it just applies to undergrad then maybe BU will raise the cost of masters degrees like the MPH even more!)

Not sure if Obama's plan will go anywhere, but it could sure help level the playing field and make life easier for MPH'ers who might choose lower paying jobs with non-profits/government.

This likely means every private school in the country is going to get poor ratings because they all have substantially higher cost of education than public schools. Look, nobody has to go to BU and nobody chooses to go to BU without knowing that it's an expensive school. If you didn''t go there and don't want to go there, how can you make a truly accuarte assessment of what it's like to be a student there and wherther or not it's a decent place to go to school? Many people on here have had great things to say about BU and one person from Gradcafe with an expensive experience (is that unique to BU?) does not mean BU is a terrible school. If you have an axe to grind and want to drag a school through the mud, I urge you to find facts to back up what you have to say unless you went to school there and can chime in on your experiences as a student.

College prices have gone up 250% over the past 3 decades, and over this amount of time family incomes grew by 16%. Even when you look back to 2007, people had higher salaries. It's not rocket science to eyeball the situation and realize that some public health schools are raking in a lot of cash, and as one former BUSPH student said, education takes a back seat and classes are taught in the evening by tired professors and students issues like commuting when it's freezing outside at night, aren't really addressed.

Obama's plan sounds like a simple equation, you have a ratio of quality to price, I think most applicants would be familiar with such an analysis as we all did it when applying!

Personally, I think that Obama's plan might force schools like BU to drop tuition in order to get a favorable rating and get more federal dollars.

Obama's support with young adults, who will have to pay more with Obamacare, is dropping like a rock. Yeah, this whole college tuition plan is probably just an attempt to try to win back lost support, and put money back in the wallets of young people, but I'm kinda skeptical that it will go anywhere. Though it will certainly open some eyes when Obama's college ratings, based on quality and cost, come out.

Many classes are taught at night to accommodate working professionals who attend BU to go part-time. It's the only school in Boston that offers that option because you can't go to Harvard as a part-time working professional unless your employer lets you attend class in the middle of the work day.

And why do you ignore other expensive schools in the region? There are many expensive universities in Boston and somehow you have a fixation on BU. As I suggested before, bring more facts to the table rather than rampant speculation and your conversation topics can be taken more seriously.

 

[EpiBird]

And why do you ignore other expensive schools in the region? There are many expensive universities in Boston and somehow you have a fixation on BU. As I suggested before, bring more facts to the table rather than rampant speculation and your conversation topics can be taken more seriously.

It is hard to discuss a topic of quality of education vs. price in general without mentioning any schools, and BU appears to be a much debated school anyway, at least from what I've read.

I may not have first hand experience of the school, but neither will applicants or President Obama's folks who will begin rating schools on the quality to price aspect. If you went to BU, then maybe you can comment on whether the school funds all of its PhDs, and if the tuition isn't too expensive. BU seems to be concerned about this as a cursory internet search revealed:

Boston University School of Public Health
Governing Council Notes
April 18, 2013

- BU's tuition policy of FT tuition ≥ 12 credits, instead of fee per credit hour makes the SPH master's degree too expensive for students taking 12 credits per semester.
- Prioritizing issues with the current MPH curriculum
- Are we delivering what we market? – in particular, timeline to completion and curricular efficiencies
- Philosophical differences (breadth vs depth, purpose of MPH training) – challenges of offering a wide variety of concentration and emphasis areas; are we meeting education and training needs for the PH job market

And then later in the report:

There is concern that the SPH research portfolio will be adversely affected by significant Federal research cuts that are anticipated in the FY14 budget. Recent increase in MPH enrollments and tuition revenues will help protect the bottom line, but we will need to continue our fundamental commitment to prudent fiscal management as these cuts materialize over the next few years.

It seems that BU charges tuition, (more "revenue") from its PhD students:

The University is moving towards standardizing a different financial model that involves full scholarship and a research or teaching stipend for all PhD students at BU. BUSPH will need to consider moving to the University model or we will be an outlier at BU and will not be as competitive for the best students. Questions raised include: how do we create a model that enhances the financial strength and competitiveness of our PhD programs, and can we develop a model which would allow us to expand our PhD programs, for example in the Department of International Health where the present cost of attracting international candidates is prohibitive. How much can we afford to underwrite PhD programs at SPH?

I have to admit, I've never heard of a PhD program that couldn't attract foreign students, (ostensibly because the PhD program didn't pay a stipend.)

http://sph.bu.edu/insider/index.php...kQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNEOeBy07BJ9c-nl8hwPHLx37SiSdA

And as *another* blogger writes:

In the next series of posts, I'm going to examine the Masters in Public Health (MPH) degree I received at the Boston University School of Public Health and if got what I paid for. Whether my experience can be extrapolated to the student body as a whole, or whether the BU experience is representative of all graduate schools of public health, I can't say. However, it may provide a cautionary tale.

http://theassassinbug.com/2010/10/12/what-exactly-does-one-get-for-50000-getting-an-mph-part-1/

Info concerning BU is readily available, not so for Harvard.

 

[Stories]

It is hard to discuss a topic of quality of education vs. price in general without mentioning any schools, and BU appears to be a much debated school anyway, at least from what I've read.

I may not have first hand experience of the school, but neither will applicants or President Obama's folks who will begin rating schools on the quality to price aspect. If you went to BU, then maybe you can comment on whether the school funds all of its PhDs, and if the tuition isn't too expensive. BU seems to be concerned about this as a cursory internet search revealed:

Boston University School of Public Health
Governing Council Notes
April 18, 2013

- BU’s tuition policy of FT tuition ≥ 12 credits, instead of fee per credit hour makes the SPH master’s degree too expensive for students taking 12 credits per semester.
- Prioritizing issues with the current MPH curriculum
- Are we delivering what we market? – in particular, timeline to completion and curricular efficiencies
- Philosophical differences (breadth vs depth, purpose of MPH training) – challenges of offering a wide variety of concentration and emphasis areas; are we meeting education and training needs for the PH job market

And then later in the report:

There is concern that the SPH research portfolio will be adversely affected by significant Federal research cuts that are anticipated in the FY14 budget. Recent increase in MPH enrollments and tuition revenues will help protect the bottom line, but we will need to continue our fundamental commitment to prudent fiscal management as these cuts materialize over the next few years.

It seems that BU charges tuition, (more "revenue") from its PhD students:

The University is moving towards standardizing a different financial model that involves full scholarship and a research or teaching stipend for all PhD students at BU. BUSPH will need to consider moving to the University model or we will be an outlier at BU and will not be as competitive for the best students. Questions raised include: how do we create a model that enhances the financial strength and competitiveness of our PhD programs, and can we develop a model which would allow us to expand our PhD programs, for example in the Department of International Health where the present cost of attracting international candidates is prohibitive. How much can we afford to underwrite PhD programs at SPH?

I have to admit, I've never heard of a PhD program that couldn't attract foreign students, (ostensibly because the PhD program didn't pay a stipend.)

http://sph.bu.edu/insider/index.php...kQFjAI&usg=AFQjCNEOeBy07BJ9c-nl8hwPHLx37SiSdA

And as *another* blogger writes:

In the next series of posts, I’m going to examine the Masters in Public Health (MPH) degree I received at the Boston University School of Public Health and if got what I paid for. Whether my experience can be extrapolated to the student body as a whole, or whether the BU experience is representative of all graduate schools of public health, I can’t say. However, it may provide a cautionary tale.

http://theassassinbug.com/2010/10/12/what-exactly-does-one-get-for-50000-getting-an-mph-part-1/

Info concerning BU is readily available, not so for Harvard.

Every school assesses how their finances are at any given time. I know for a fact this is no different than the other institution I attended (Yale). Schools cannot operate a net deficit otherwise they'd be going bankrupt. But the costs of BU are not really different than other graduate schools in large cities. Any school that has been in operation for a while will always assess how their school is performing, any institution that doesn't do this gets left behind due to stagnation. So BU just makes it public as to what they want to assess within their own program. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing?

Every school also worries about their research cuts because NIH continues to cut back on funding (there are around 8% or so cutbacks on grants and existing grants). Professor's salaries typically have a large percentage that comes from grants, unless that professor is on a 'hard money' position (such as a teaching, non-research position). If grants are coming in at a rate lower than expected, the university has to cover the costs of salaries, which is where revenue becomes an issue. This is true of all research universities across sciences. BU is not unique in that situation

As for PhD students, many international students can't be afforded the stipends at BU because the vast majority of stipends are provided through an employment mechanism where the student in question has to be a US citizen. Students will work under the guidance of a professor's grant/project and get tuition waived as a result. This benefit actually is also afforded to MPH students, as well, if they wish to attain a tuition benefit. This is how I actually got my MPH without incurring much cost during my time there. I know several schools also employ this mechanism (UW and UIC off the top of my head). Under this mechanism, not everyone will have the benefit of tuition waivers or stipends, but attending graduation school without a tuition wiaver or stipend is strictly a student's choice. My advice to everyone has always been, there's going to be some school out there that will give support for studies--if a school doesn't offer it, don't go. Some schools (I won't name any here since this has a negative association) are notorious for offering far more slots in their program than they have funding for and they tend to have predatory efforts to bring in international students who are not eligible to be funded under many NIH-based grants since they are not citizens.

That person who posted on his/her experience receiving a MPH, probably could have mostly be written about any graduate program without guarantees regarding post-graduate income or employment. Everyone has uncertainties and everyone has their own concerns, and this person happened to write his/her own concerns. As I've written before, I think the value of education to one person is different to another person and this is an individual question everyone needs to wrestle with before they pursue education and realize a little too late they have $150k in debt with a $60k job.

 

[EpiBird]

If grants are coming in at a rate lower than expected, the university has to cover the costs of salaries, which is where revenue becomes an issue. This is true of all research universities across sciences. BU is not unique in that situation

As for PhD students, many international students can't be afforded the stipends at BU because the vast majority of stipends are provided through an employment mechanism where the student in question has to be a US citizen.

As you didn't have to pay tuition for your MPH at BU, it seems that others interested in BU's MPH should follow that advice (or at other high price institutions where applicable).

A large percentage of graduate, PhD, students in this country are foreigners, and they get visas and are paid for their time in graduate school, despite not being US citizens, not sure why BU would be any different.

Still don't understand why large cities mean MPH programs with vastly inflated tuition. Do they pay BU faculty that much more than at other colleges? Probably not.

I guess anybody can read whatever they want into BU's info, I get it that budget cuts are going to end some really promising/important research, but it seems like BU, being one of the schools that massively increased its student body, is now kind of "addicted" on revenue from student tuition.

Anyway, here is another first hand account from a BU grad:

(http://ask.metafilter.com/245189/Ho...student-loan-debt-Boston-vs-UIC-Public-Health)

Seems to indicate that BU might cherry pick the data regarding salaries post graduation, as they seem to kinda inflated compared to the rest of the field.



I went to grad school at BU (Charles River Campus, "CRC", not Med Campus, though) and have worked at BMC (the hospital with which BUMC/BU School of Public Health is affiliated).

My experiences:

- BU's reported average starting salaries are (or at least were) based on only those recent grads who choose to self-report, not on all grads. So the $54K might be artificially high.

- BU Career Services were generally not helpful to me. To make a gross simplification, Career Services was very interested in recommending fonts for resumes and helping grads choose between competing high-$$, high-prestige job offers. These were not terribly useful services for me, since my problem was resume content and not being at the top of my class. I have no experience with Med Campus Career Services, but I wouldn't put too much stock in CRC or BU-wide career services.

- I thought about pursuing an MPH while I was working at BMC but was talked out of it by the feedback I got from my colleagues there, which was that an MPH wasn't worth much as a standalone degree. MD+MPH, sure; or years of in-field experience +MPH, but otherwise it seemed like the MPH didn't add so much, at least as of a few years ago.

- My friend who pursued a standalone MPH (at BU) did so as a BU employee. If I recall correctly, many/most of the MPH classes are in the evening and pretty amenable to taking after business hours, and BU has a pretty good tuition remission policy.

- Make sure you understand the payment and forgiveness options for public/federal vs. private loans. I was under the impression that Income Based Repayment (where you pay as a percentage of your income) and Public Service Loan Forgiveness (where unpaid debt is forgiven after 10 years of qualifying payments) were options for federal loans only, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

Anyway, I am repaying my loans on IBR myself (many years out of school, still making less than that "starting" salary I read so much into as a student).

If I had it to do over again I would not make such favorable assumptions as I did then - I encourage you to ask tough questions and look at all the possibilities, not just the optimistic ones. Good luck.

 

[Stories]

As you didn't have to pay tuition for your MPH at BU, it seems that others interested in BU's MPH should follow that advice (or at other high price institutions where applicable).

A large percentage of graduate, PhD, students in this country are foreigners, and they get visas and are paid for their time in graduate school, despite not being US citizens, not sure why BU would be any different.

Still don't understand why large cities mean MPH programs with vastly inflated tuition. Do they pay BU faculty that much more than at other colleges? Probably not.

I guess anybody can read whatever they want into BU's info, I get it that budget cuts are going to end some really promising/important research, but it seems like BU, being one of the schools that massively increased its student body, is now kind of "addicted" on revenue from student tuition.

Anyway, here is another first hand account from a BU grad:

(http://ask.metafilter.com/245189/Ho...student-loan-debt-Boston-vs-UIC-Public-Health)

Seems to indicate that BU might cherry pick the data regarding salaries post graduation, as they seem to kinda inflated compared to the rest of the field.



I went to grad school at BU (Charles River Campus, "CRC", not Med Campus, though) and have worked at BMC (the hospital with which BUMC/BU School of Public Health is affiliated).

My experiences:

- BU's reported average starting salaries are (or at least were) based on only those recent grads who choose to self-report, not on all grads. So the $54K might be artificially high.

- BU Career Services were generally not helpful to me. To make a gross simplification, Career Services was very interested in recommending fonts for resumes and helping grads choose between competing high-$$, high-prestige job offers. These were not terribly useful services for me, since my problem was resume content and not being at the top of my class. I have no experience with Med Campus Career Services, but I wouldn't put too much stock in CRC or BU-wide career services.

- I thought about pursuing an MPH while I was working at BMC but was talked out of it by the feedback I got from my colleagues there, which was that an MPH wasn't worth much as a standalone degree. MD+MPH, sure; or years of in-field experience +MPH, but otherwise it seemed like the MPH didn't add so much, at least as of a few years ago.

- My friend who pursued a standalone MPH (at BU) did so as a BU employee. If I recall correctly, many/most of the MPH classes are in the evening and pretty amenable to taking after business hours, and BU has a pretty good tuition remission policy.

- Make sure you understand the payment and forgiveness options for public/federal vs. private loans. I was under the impression that Income Based Repayment (where you pay as a percentage of your income) and Public Service Loan Forgiveness (where unpaid debt is forgiven after 10 years of qualifying payments) were options for federal loans only, but I could certainly be wrong about that.

Anyway, I am repaying my loans on IBR myself (many years out of school, still making less than that "starting" salary I read so much into as a student).

If I had it to do over again I would not make such favorable assumptions as I did then - I encourage you to ask tough questions and look at all the possibilities, not just the optimistic ones. Good luck.

I chose to go to schools that were free or brought me little cost. For undergrad and both grad programs. I went to private institutions and managed to make it work, so it's absolutely possible to go to expensive schools without incurring financial burden. This was a personal choice. And my choice. It was the right choice for me. It's not the right choice for everyone or may not even have this choice. It's an individual option.

Look, I've pointed out to you that tuition at all SF, Boston, New York, and DC schools are high (in the mid-$40k range) compared to other bigger (but cheaper) cities such as Chicago or Houston. It's obviously something schools in those regions charge. What else I can possibly write to show you that schools in expensive cities have expensive tuition aside from showing you the numbers that those schools are more expensive?

The schools I mentioned use an employment mechanism (meaning you have to be legally allowed to work in the US) to pay their students and provide tuition waivers. Because foreigners can't work under that mechanism because they don't have the proper work visa, they are not eligibile for that mechanism. Those international students will have to get their stipends and tuition waivers through other mechanisms. International students are also exempt from T32-based NIH training grants (the other big mechanism for paying students). There are other mechanisms of course, and these two mechanisms which exclude international students are not the only mechanisms which can be utilized to get international students. Two of my Canadian friends have some issues with with this (NIH-based grants) and there had to be some tinkering with where their stipends came from to make sure they were compliant.

I've already laid my points about loans and value and such. Loan services at all private institutions are expensive and if someone has buyer's remorse after the fact, that is his/her own fault and nobody else is to blame. That person was not forced to attend that school nor take out that quantity of loans. It's as simple as that. Just because it's easy to go to school and easy to get loans doesn't mean anyone should.

I feel you're going to attack BU again and attack me on some level, so I'm done with this thread. But keep your speculation in check and back up your statements with facts and don't get out of hand. This is a stern suggestion.

 

[EpiBird]

I feel you're going to attack BU again and attack me on some level, so I'm done with this thread.

I apologize if you feel I've "attacked" BU in some way, but certainly these issues have been discussed here and elsewhere on the internet, obviously BU's issues aren't disimilar to some other schools out there. There is a bigger issue of a tuition bubble and discussing this sociological phenomenon is fascinating for some of us, and most MPHers are probably cognizant of these issues, hence it doesn't matter if we discuss them, and shouldn't automatically offend somebody.

Look, I've pointed out to you that tuition at all SF, Boston, New York, and DC schools are high (in the mid-$40k range) compared to other bigger (but cheaper) cities such as Chicago or Houston. It's obviously something schools in those regions charge. What else I can possibly write to show you that schools in expensive cities have expensive tuition aside from showing you the numbers that those schools are more expensive?

I would also note that disagreeing with a person's conclusions and interpretation of the information isn't "attacking" somebody. There is a correlation, in some cases, between the size of a city and the cost of the education . . . doesn't prove causation, that large city size means that tuition must be high due to operating expenses. Many private schools in large cities are non-profits and pay very small property taxes.

Of course, I, and probably others, do appreciate your insight and all of the information you've given, if we were discussing Columbia, I wonder how much insider info would be proffered!

 

[Solara]

It depends what you're looking to get out of a school. Sure, prestige plays a factor, especially with a school like Johns Hopkins or Harvard. But oftentimes it won't be what you know or where you went to school that lands you your job. It's who you know, and the connections you can harness. If you are really interested in infectious diseases, Johns Hopkins would be a great place to go. They have so many connections with international agencies and research institutions worldwide, so a $55,000 tuition bill might seem like a lot compared to your local state school, but if you work hard during that year to make connections with the top people in infectious diseases, and make a good relationship with them, you could have a great start to your career, and the high tuition there becomes absolutely worth it.

 

[EpiBird]

It depends what you're looking to get out of a school. Sure, prestige plays a factor, especially with a school like Johns Hopkins or Harvard. But oftentimes it won't be what you know or where you went to school that lands you your job. It's who you know, and the connections you can harness. If you are really interested in infectious diseases, Johns Hopkins would be a great place to go. They have so many connections with international agencies and research institutions worldwide, so a $55,000 tuition bill might seem like a lot compared to your local state school, but if you work hard during that year to make connections with the top people in infectious diseases, and make a good relationship with them, you could have a great start to your career, and the high tuition there becomes absolutely worth it.

That is true, but only up to a point. If tuition keeps increasing greater than inflation, I'm guessing it is a percentage point, or two, above inflation over the past decade, then at some point the debt isn't worth it in terms of repayment.

We know that the Obama administration will rank school based on the price to quality ratio. I suppose you can debate until the cows come home what school has a higher quality than another, but I'm thinking the feds will be happy to look at factors such as breadth and deep of the education offered, maybe even a school's reputation.

From a purely meritocratic viewpoint, some well qualified students might be priced out of attending Hopkins/Harvard, and would do exceptionally well at a state school, but wouldn't get the "connections" paid for by going to a high prestige school.

But you're right, some applicants would be happy with paying a premium price to go to a dream school, or a prestigious institution.

 

[Solara]

That is true, but only up to a point. If tuition keeps increasing greater than inflation, I'm guessing it is a percentage point, or two, above inflation over the past decade, then at some point the debt isn't worth it in terms of repayment.

We know that the Obama administration will rank school based on the price to quality ratio. I suppose you can debate until the cows come home what school has a higher quality than another, but I'm thinking the feds will be happy to look at factors such as breadth and deep of the education offered, maybe even a school's reputation.

From a purely meritocratic viewpoint, some well qualified students might be priced out of attending Hopkins/Harvard, and would do exceptionally well at a state school, but wouldn't get the "connections" paid for by going to a high prestige school.

But you're right, some applicants would be happy with paying a premium price to go to a dream school, or a prestigious institution.

Will Obama's proposed initiative cover grad schools, not just undergraduate institutions? Obama (a Harvard Law graduate and law professor) even said that law school should be 2 years instead of 3 so students don't have to pay as much for higher education. It's very encouraging to see him try and put these initiatives in the spotlight, create more dialogue on them, hopefully get them passed, get more scholarships and lower costs for students, and finally create the *actual impact* we're all hoping he can achieve: making higher education more affordable and reduce the debt burden for students.

Yea, there are so many factors to think about. A top school like Hopkins will just happen to have some of the best public health faculty in the world, but there are certainly great faculty at other, lower-ranked schools. A well qualified student might do well at any school s/he goes to, and still make a great career. That student may just make the most of what s/he can at the school s/he goes to. So it's not where you go, it's what you do, as well as who you know. When you make connections, you've done something good for someone and they remember you for that. It doesn't take an expensive, prestigious school to know the right people and get the right opportunities, but it certainly can help. Good students will make the most of what they have. If someone like Paul Farmer just happened to be at a university like Ohio State University, then it might be better for that student to go to OSU and get mentorship under Paul Farmer than it would be to pay premium price to go to Harvard. These are just a few of many things to think about when choosing schools.

 

[EpiBird]

Will Obama's proposed initiative cover grad schools, not just undergraduate institutions?

I think that even if Obama's proposal doesn't effect masters (cash cows for universities), it probably will effect, in some way, those schools that have expensive undergraduate institutions as well as MPH programs.

The plan will look at factors such as tuition, graduation rates, debt, earnings of graduates, and percentage of lower income students who attend. For, BU's and Columbia's undergrad programs are pretty expensive, Columbia's costs $47,000 per year, BU around $44,000. Assuming that such a rating system would cause, by necessity, for BU and Columbia to drastically cut tuition in order to keep on getting federal grants (there would probably be a tuition level whereby raising the tuition above this point would net a school no additional dollars as they'd lose some federal funding), would the schools also keep the MPH tuition high? Seems like a lot of people would wonder why graduate tuition is so much more than undergraduate tuition.

Or maybe such a budget crunch would force schools to raise the cost of their masters programs even more?