Pure Scientists look down on Premeds?

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It is. Why do you think I'm changing careers? The phenomenon of having graduates go into industry or switch fields entirely (consulting or Wall Street, for instance) has been around for some time. I think more so in the past 10-20 years than before that but it's been around. But a relatively new phenomenon that current and future PhDs will have to deal with is this (at least in chemistry, which is the field I know best). Pharma companies have figured out that they can pay PIs in academia to "consult" on their R&D teams. What this translates to is that the work that a PhD chemist would be doing with the company is now shifted to PIs, who are paid less than staff chemists (but still substantial sums of money) to "consult," or have the people working for that PI do the job for the company. Why pay a PhD a hefty salary with full benefits when you can pay someone else much less to do it? So the staff chemist jobs are drying up and industry positions are now even becoming harder to find. There definitely are substantial cuts to the number of PI positions open in industry.

At the same time, large universities are trying to rein in costs and hiring more lecture staff than tenure-track faculty. So those positions are also drying up. So here you have the same level of or even higher levels of PhDs graduating and competing in a smaller labor market. Basic economics can tell us how that's going to go.

"Publish or perish" has always been the de facto regime in academia. PIs are expected to contribute to their own salary through grants and the only way to get grants is to have a lot of peer-reviewed publications so people believe that you're legit and are more comfortable giving their money to you. So to even become a PI, you have to publish a lot. And that effect has trickled down to post-doc positions as well, since there are many PhDs graduating and few post-doctoral fellowships open. So you distinguish applicants by publication number and quality. If you don't publish at either the post-doc or PI level, you either never get a tenure-track faculty position or the research funding/grants dry up and you can't do research. There's no way to get out of this cycle unless research funding can be dissociated from publications and another metric used to evaluate who gets the money. Sometimes, the number of publications doesn't matter as much as the quality of the proposal. A starting PI might have a very good strategy for attacking the big problems in science but that requires time and money. Time is in short supply because if he doesn't get publishing, he's not going to get any money. But to get money, he has to attack smaller questions that take less time to answer. So this whole cycle perpetuates.

Yup! A bunch of PIs are consulting now for industry. And I don't blame them, whatever pays the bills. A lot of people don't know that at a lot of institutions (primarily the big ones), PIs have to cover 100% of their salary with their grants. Science is a field that I'm not sure I can recommend to many people in its current state.
 
Yup! A bunch of PIs are consulting now for industry. And I don't blame them, whatever pays the bills. A lot of people don't know that at a lot of institutions (primarily the big ones), PIs have to cover 100% of their salary with their grants. Science is a field that I'm not sure I can recommend to many people in its current state.
The absurd thing is that university budgets are bloated more then ever with arms races to build the shiniest new facilities,sports coliseums and absurd administrator pay. Yet scientists and tenure are on the chopping block? Even though universities get to keep the intellectual property payoffs. It's heads you loose and tails I win from the universitites perspective.
232031d1387614813t-new-leak-10-2-1-1259-w-all-links-farnsworth_i_dont_want_to_live_on_this_planet_anymore.jpg
 
The absurd thing is that university budgets are bloated more then ever with arms races to build the shiniest new facilities,sports coliseums and absurd administrator pay. Yet scientists and tenure are on the chopping block? Even though universities get to keep the intellectual property payoffs. It's heads you loose and tails I win from the universitites perspective.

The best job is head coach at a D1 school that's really bad at sports. You still get paid a **** ton and nobody really cares if you lose. If you win, you get bonuses.
 
Yup! A bunch of PIs are consulting now for industry. And I don't blame them, whatever pays the bills. A lot of people don't know that at a lot of institutions (primarily the big ones), PIs have to cover 100% of their salary with their grants. Science is a field that I'm not sure I can recommend to many people in its current state.

The system screws over graduate students because they're the ones who have to carry out the projects and they're the ones who have to find a coherent thesis out of the projects, which may contain a weird mix of topics if the PI has multiple consulting gigs going on and shifts people around. The mentor-mentee relationship dies slowly with the current system.
 
The best job is head coach at a D1 school that's really bad at sports. You still get paid a **** ton and nobody really cares if you lose. If you win, you get bonuses.
That dude is totally going to stop the spread of Zika.
 
Can you imagine how much better the world would be if we idolized scientists, physicians, astronauts, engineers and the like instead of athletes and sub-100 IQ celebrities? Our evolution has yet to move us past valuing "big and strong and pretty" over "smart"

Have you seen the Key & Peele episode with "The Teacher Center" basically ESPN like coverage of the teacher draft, fitted with salaries, car commercials etc it's so funny and quite thought provoking too.


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Have you seen the Key & Peele episode with "The Teacher Center" basically ESPN like coverage of the teacher draft, fitted with salaries, car commercials etc it's so funny and quite thought provoking too.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Absolutely. It made me glad I wasn't the only one who had thought "what if" about this kind of thing, haha.
 
It's not the game itself. It's how the players are playing the game. As with any game, you can play a good, clean game. Or you can play SEC style.

Exactly this. "Don't hate the player hate the game" is such a lazy copout. It's the same thing our beloved president-elect has been using all year to excuse his awful business practices.
 
Probably from past experiences of premeds that are lazy or are so involved in everything else they don't do a good job or show up
 
PhDs look down on premeds, premeds look down on social science majors, social science majors look down on humanity majors, humanity majors look down on business majors, business majors look down on PhDs, and the cycle continues.
 
I think if the PI seems to look down on premeds who are actually contributing, they're just not a great undergrad mentor. I think that there are three underlying things that contribute to the PhD vs MD hostility.

1) The box checkers. I've personally mentored a really great premed who was genuinely interested and curious, but I've also mentored a premed who couldn't care less about the research and didn't think critically. I also share lab space with a hoard of hilariously awful undergrads who messed up everything they touched and never learned from their mistakes. There was even one who suggested making up data because they were worried about their work not converting to a publication...that's a PhD's worst nightmare, because their career can go down for something like that! These aren't students who suffer from school brand issues either, they're Ivy League students. Box checking=invariably poor performance in the lab, and also a bad attitude to have. Medicine needs research (hello, evidence-based era), and research needs medicine. They are flip sides of the same coin, so put some effort into that research you're doing!

2) The attitude that PhDs are med school rejects/are less intelligent. I had to take a med school class as part of my PhD curriculum, and I mostly encountered good people who considered the PhD students equals and included us in their study material emails, but I also encountered a student who outright stated that he assumed we PhD students were struggling with the course because, you know, PhD students. My PI (an MD-PhD) always says that MD and PhD are just different kinds of hard. MD=hard to get in, easy to get out with your degree; PhD=easy to get in (in comparison to MD), hard to get out with your degree. Also, if premeds have this attitude they tend not to listen to the techs or grad students in the lab, which is universally disastrous.

3) Entitlement. We've had many premeds just assume that they can join the lab without question. They think if they don't ask to be paid we'll accept them with open arms (I'm free! Why wouldn't you want me?). They don't realize that their mistakes are extremely costly in terms of time and money, and we have to believe that they're competent before we'll let them join. We had one email my PI while he was out of the country and then send a second, rude email less when he didn't get a response in less than 24 hours because the kid was irked that my PI wan't jumping up and down to take him. Don't be that guy.

That's my perspective as a PhD student. Lots of premeds are great, curious, friendly, and I enjoy working with them! BUT there are others who have inspired me to go for a long run at the end of the day to take out my frustration because they don't listen and don't care.
 
So this thread has me thinking; Haven't done research yet, but when I apply what are some big no no's, and something I should do?
I don't want to annoy the PI like other pre-med lol..
I think I will genuinely like researching
 
So this thread has me thinking; Haven't done research yet, but when I apply what are some big no no's, and something I should do?
I don't want to annoy the PI like other pre-med lol..
I think I will genuinely like researching

Best advice I can give you is find a subject matter you're genuinely interested in. If you are interested in your work and motivated to learn and discover, you're going to have a much better experience than if you hate what you're studying and dread the hours you spend in the lab.
 
I had to talk a fellow pre-med friend of mine out of doing research because she said she really would not be happy with doing research. I told her that the scientists will catch on if you're only there to check a box off for medical school applications, especially if you're really not happy with what you're doing.

Also, as a physics major, I've caught on to other reasons why "pure scientists" (physicists and physics majors specifically) might look down on pre-meds. At my school, we often hear a lot of the pre-med students coming to the physics building for their General Physics lecture, complaining about physics. They talk about how they hate the subject and don't see how they'll ever use it. I guess if you don't like physics, it's fair to be frustrated about needing to take it to get into medical school, but it does get irritating hearing it over and over again. Professors and TAs don't really like teaching the General Physics classes (which consist of mainly pre-meds at my college) because they know the majority of the students there aren't really enjoying the subject.
 
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