"Quality" of Ob/Gyn Applicants

[flashMD]

I'm a medical student interested in Ob/Gyn. I go to a "top tier" academic program and have been meeting with a lot of faculty/advisors about Ob/Gyn. One of the comments that kind of caught me off guard from an attending was something along the lines of "why would you want to go into Ob/Gyn...the specialty just does not attract high 'quality' applicants". He then went on to say that in Ob/Gyn you are surrounded by people who are not as intellectually/academically capable...blah, blah, blah...

Just wanted to see what you guys thought about this. Has the "quality" of Ob/Gyn applicants gone down in recent years? Why have so many Ob/Gyn residency spots gone unfilled in recent years? How "malignant" is the specialty as a whole, really? How has the recent trend of more females in the specialty affected all of this?

Anyways, thought this would be an interesting discussion...

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[G2P0112]

I'm a medical student interested in Ob/Gyn. I go to a "top tier" academic program and have been meeting with a lot of faculty/advisors about Ob/Gyn. One of the comments that kind of caught me off guard from an attending was something along the lines of "why would you want to go into Ob/Gyn...the specialty just does not attract high 'quality' applicants". He then went on to say that in Ob/Gyn you are surrounded by people who are not as intellectually/academically capable...blah, blah, blah...

Just wanted to see what you guys thought about this. Has the "quality" of Ob/Gyn applicants gone down in recent years? Why have so many Ob/Gyn residency spots gone unfilled in recent years? How "malignant" is the specialty as a whole, really? How has the recent trend of more females in the specialty affected all of this?

Anyways, thought this would be an interesting discussion...

How exactly is it that you and your arrogant faculty member define a "quality" person?

 

[GoofyDoc]

...in Ob/Gyn you are surrounded by people who are not as intellectually/academically capable...blah, blah, blah...

Why have so many Ob/Gyn residency spots gone unfilled in recent years?

Perhaps applicants are being scared away by the fear of malpractice.

How has the recent trend of more females in the specialty affected all of this?

Why should it matter whether there are more or less females in a specialty? Are females inferior "quality?"

 

[Wednesday]

I'm a medical student interested in Ob/Gyn. I go to a "top tier" academic program and have been meeting with a lot of faculty/advisors about Ob/Gyn. One of the comments that kind of caught me off guard from an attending was something along the lines of "why would you want to go into Ob/Gyn...the specialty just does not attract high 'quality' applicants". He then went on to say that in Ob/Gyn you are surrounded by people who are not as intellectually/academically capable...blah, blah, blah...

Just wanted to see what you guys thought about this. Has the "quality" of Ob/Gyn applicants gone down in recent years? Why have so many Ob/Gyn residency spots gone unfilled in recent years? How "malignant" is the specialty as a whole, really? How has the recent trend of more females in the specialty affected all of this?

Anyways, thought this would be an interesting discussion...

Sort of a trollish post for the ob/gyn forum, don't you think? I can't imagine that this audience is going to discuss this "topic" in a very "interesting" way.

In the rather unlikely event that you are unwittingly posing as a troll, I will offer you a thought about listening to opinions from attendings. If they are not in the field you are inquiring about, their opinion is basically worthless. Just ask a student an another med school about yours. You'll probably hear some ridiculous rumor about how horrible blank is and how much better their school is in that particular department. Very likely it's all garbage. If you want to know about something, ask people who are actually doing it. Better yet, TRY it yourself. People have varying opinions about just about everything.

I think that in the recent past ob/gyn applicants have been less competitive than they used to be (but remember it used to be one of the most popular fields). General Surgery had the same problem. Probably due to high work hours and a shift in attitudes about what sorts of hours are acceptable. Gen Surg has turned around (getting harder to match into) and it looks like ob/gyn might go the same way, since the 80 hour work week. For the record, there are still quailty people from "top tier" medical schools going into ob/gyn. I'm guessing it's because they actually LIKE the field and not because they heard that lots of smart people go into it. And this brings me to the most important point. WHO CARES what that (I'm guessing general surgery) attending says about the field? It's YOUR career (decades of it) not his.

 

[flashMD]

Whoa...back up, this has gotten way out of control. I took as much offense to HIS comment as everyone is taking right now. I'm about 99% sure I'm going into Ob/Gyn myself and just wanted to get a response to his comment from others who are interested in Ob/Gyn too. You made my point exactly; what does "quality" mean anyways?

The way I see it, numbers/interest in Ob/Gyn has fallen recently due to high malpractice insurance, long Ob hours, etc...and the people who are truly passionate about Ob/Gyn are still going for it. In my mind, it may not be as competitive (numbers-wise) right now, but the "quality" of applicants has probably gone up because the people who are applying REALLY want to be Ob/Gyns and have done all the things necessary to get there.

As for the recent trend in females going into the specialty, I am simply looking at this from an objective numbers point of view...LESS men are going into the specialty, and therefore also affecting the numbers game. To suggest that I find women inferior is absolutely ridiculous. I myself am a woman, and have spent my entire life breaking through gender barriers.

And, yes, I have spent a lot of time TRYING it myself, and I LOVE it. I guess the reason these comments from my "arrogant" attending bothered me so much is because he is a leader in the field and someone I WAS (am no longer) considering doing research with until then.

 

[toxic-megacolon]

That comment by the attending really is kind of silly. OBGYN is more competitive than, say, Internal Medicine; yet no one says that Cardiologists or Gastroenterologists aren't intellectual or high quality. I think sometimes the old 'dinosaur' types talk about OB and Peds that way sometimes because it is a field with a large number of women, and they (probably subconsciuosly) equate that to being less serious about cutting edge research and less dedicated practiioners. As people like that die off, hopefully so will that attitude.

 

[Wednesday]

Whoa...back up, this has gotten way out of control. I took as much offense to HIS comment as everyone is taking right now. I'm about 99% sure I'm going into Ob/Gyn myself and just wanted to get a response to his comment from others who are interested in Ob/Gyn too. You made my point exactly; what does "quality" mean anyways?

The way I see it, numbers/interest in Ob/Gyn has fallen recently due to high malpractice insurance, long Ob hours, etc...and the people who are truly passionate about Ob/Gyn are still going for it. In my mind, it may not be as competitive (numbers-wise) right now, but the "quality" of applicants has probably gone up because the people who are applying REALLY want to be Ob/Gyns and have done all the things necessary to get there.

As for the recent trend in females going into the specialty, I am simply looking at this from an objective numbers point of view...LESS men are going into the specialty, and therefore also affecting the numbers game. To suggest that I find women inferior is absolutely ridiculous. I myself am a woman, and have spent my entire life breaking through gender barriers.

And, yes, I have spent a lot of time TRYING it myself, and I LOVE it. I guess the reason these comments from my "arrogant" attending bothered me so much is because he is a leader in the field and someone I WAS (am no longer) considering doing research with until then.

Didn't mean to over react. But if you reread your original post, you might see why we got a little flustered. Good luck with your search for a better person to do research with!

 

[GoofyDoc]

As for the recent trend in females going into the specialty, I am simply looking at this from an objective numbers point of view...LESS men are going into the specialty, and therefore also affecting the numbers game. To suggest that I find women inferior is absolutely ridiculous. I myself am a woman, and have spent my entire life breaking through gender barriers.

I wasn't actually suggesting that you personally think females are inferior. So many people talk about the number of women in certain specialties, it makes me kind of wonder what that's all about. Perhaps Dr. Arrogant and his likes have negative views on that. Anyway, good luck.

 

[geekOCD]

Hmm...unfortunately (and I'm female too), it's a pretty well established fact (numerous studies) that any field that becomes female-dominated suffers a drop in respect. Within medicine it's happened to breast oncology, OB/GYN, peds, etc.

 

[sophiejane]

I know this is an older post that got bumped,but it brings up something I am seeing and hearing a lot of lately. I find it really interesting and quite sad that we spend so much time worrying about what other people think of the specialty we choose. How smart are my colleagues going to be? As smart as me? Will the other doctors laugh at me? How much respect will I get?

It's ridiculous and sophomoric for our profession as a whole to go on like this incessantly.

DO WHAT YOU LOVE. Ignore everything else. Maybe the next generation of doctors can start to change some of the pettiness and arrogance our profession has been laboring under for years.

No wonder patients sue us and don't trust us. Look at our role models (which are hopefully a dying breed, unless they are able to infect their students with their malignant attitudes).

Look at what appears to matter to us. How many times do we ponder how much we are able to do for PATIENTS? Not nearly as much as we discuss how much money we will make, what the best programs are to have behind your name, and how well "respected" we are in the field. We are all stroking (or not stroking) each others egos constantly and I find it pretty disgusting.

 

[community]

Why have so many Ob/Gyn residency spots gone unfilled in recent years? How "malignant" is the specialty as a whole, really? How has the recent trend of more females in the specialty affected all of this?

Anyways, thought this would be an interesting discussion...

Actually, the number of applications to programs increased this year and this application year was very competitive. Ask any program director. Also, you should check your sources. OBGYN has an approx 94.7% match rate. It is not a given that scrambing will land you a spot b/c there are few spots to scramble into. I definitely kept this in mind when creating my match list.

community

 

[new_avatar]

Actually, the number of applications to programs increased this year and this application year was very competitive. Ask any program director. Also, you should check your sources. OBGYN has an approx 94.7% match rate. It is not a given that scrambing will land you a spot b/c there are few spots to scramble into. I definitely kept this in mind when creating my match list.

community

OBG is not that competitive.
If you look here: http://residency.wustl.edu/

you will see that 94% of US seniors who wanted OBG got it.
In 2005 in the whole country 47 went unmatched.

I hope this helps.

 

[Diane L. Evans]

OBG is not that competitive.
If you look here: http://residency.wustl.edu/

you will see that 94% of US seniors who wanted OBG got it.
In 2005 in the whole country 47 went unmatched.

I hope this helps.

hmm looking at the ACOG site I beg to differ. Let see when lists are out OK.
Board and grade scores over the past decade have been much more competitive for OB versus FP or IM. Plus more requirements for surgical skills. From your posts new_avatar I think your applying ER or for a prelim year did you change your mind?

 

[new_avatar]

hmm looking at the ACOG site I beg to differ. Let see when lists are out OK.
Board and grade scores over the past decade have been much more competitive for OB versus FP or IM. Plus more requirements for surgical skills. From your posts new_avatar I think your applying ER or for a prelim year did you change your mind?

I haven't met a US senior who hasn't gotten an obg spot. I have met derm, ortho, and urology ones though.

Met people who got Ivy OBG spots who would not have gotten a medicine spot at the same institution.

More competitive than med or fm yes, but not ortho, derm, rads, ent, and the like. Remember during my obg rotation my attending told me about the grave crisis in obg and how only 2/3 of slots were being filled by US seniors in recent years. I can tell you the US senior percentage is much higher in ortho, ent, urology, etc.

Data are here:

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table5_05.pdf

US seniors as a percentage of slots offerred from '01-'05:

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005
US seniors 834 850 786 743 772
slots avail 1125 1138 1151 1142 1144

percentage 74.13% 74.69% 68.29% 65.06% 67.48%


I liked OBG but am not a morning person. Uncontrollable lifestyle and liability insurance that costs the moon doesn't help either. Neither does being male.

 

[sophiejane]

Does it make us feel better about ourselves or smarter or more capable to argue that OBGYN is more "competitive" than FP or IM? Why so quick to make sure everyone knows that NOT everyone who wants an OBGYN spot will get one?

Even if there are levels of "competitiveness" it all varies between programs. You can't say IM is easier to get into than OBGYN in general because there are plenty of IM programs that are much harder to get into than some OBGYN programs. Starting to sound ridiculous? That's because it is...

Do what you love. Drop the ego. Move on.

 

[braxtonhicks]

hmm looking at the ACOG site I beg to differ. Let see when lists are out OK.
Board and grade scores over the past decade have been much more competitive for OB versus FP or IM. Plus more requirements for surgical skills. From your posts new_avatar I think your applying ER or for a prelim year did you change your mind?

Diane, Where on the ACOG website can I find info on grades and board scores? I just looked and couldn't find, but I'm interested in checking in out. Thanks!

 

[community]

Diane, Where on the ACOG website can I find info on grades and board scores? I just looked and couldn't find, but I'm interested in checking in out. Thanks!

You need to look on the APGrg site, go to medical students-->then residency directory. You will need a user name and password to enter the directory.

 

[Diane L. Evans]

You need to look on the APGrg site, go to medical students-->then residency directory. You will need a user name and password to enter the directory.

Thanks for geting the link...

 

[abmd2006]

I skimmed this thread last month and didn't think much about it. Then I rotated through family practice and found myself in a conversation with a dinosaur family practice attending about OB/GYN. Darn if the codger didn't make the same statement about weaker applicants applying to OB/GYN - to me, and yes, he knows I'm a OB/GYN applicant.
If this individual weren't responsible for my grade in that rotation, I would have informed him of his glaring lack of taste.
I should add that this is also the same individual who informed the team on rounds that our #1 priority should be God, and that "black" people tend to sleep in late.
No, sadly, I'm not making this up and none of these statements were made in jest. Understand that I have nothing against religion, but a person with authority telling you how to prioritize your life in this manner is highly inappropriate!
Just learn the physical exam pearls from people like this and move on. Getting upset about it is akin to getting upset about the weather. You can't change it, and it will go away eventually. And for goodness sake - DO NOT take advice from these people regarding your future!
It's not about age, by the way, it's about behavior. Choose your mentors well!

 

[abmd2006]

sorry, technical difficulties

 

[abmd2006]

Sorry - technical difficulties