Question about Aeromedical Experience

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DropkickMurphy

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Perhaps BKN or some of the senior residents and attendings could answer something that came up during a discussion with a friend of mine. If someone were to get into a residency program that requires helicopter rotations and they were to discovered after getting started that they either were terrified to fly aboard helos or suffered intractable motion sickness, etc.....what would happen to them? Would they be exempted? Would they be required to transfer out? Just wondering....
 
Perhaps BKN or some of the senior residents and attendings could answer something that came up during a discussion with a friend of mine. If someone were to get into a residency program that requires helicopter rotations and they were to discovered after getting started that they either were terrified to fly aboard helos or suffered intractable motion sickness, etc.....what would happen to them? Would they be exempted? Would they be required to transfer out? Just wondering....


At Mayo is experience is "required" but several residents have opted out for various reasons. I think in most cases it is really more "default" than "required".

- H
 
Exceptions can always be made in rare circumstances. However, at UofC, you are expected to fly at all times as a PGY-2 and 3 resident. The helicopter will not take off without you. So if you can't fly, than it will be a major problem. If you are worried that you may not be able to fly, don't come to UofC (our PD says this at the beginning of every interview day), because it is a requirement.

I can't speak for other flight programs.
 
The reason that it came up is my friend (a fellow premed) does fine with fixed wing aircraft but because intractably sick during flights in helicopters. I've also known several people who have had this problem with no warning or prior concern for it.
 
If he's not sure if he can handle helicopters or isn't sure if he wants to make the commitment, I would suggest doing an away rotation at a program which offers an Aeromedical experience. 4th year med students that rotate with us can fly if they want. It's a good way to figure out if it's for you.
 
If your friend knows he gets sick on helicopters, he should assiduously avoid programs where you WILL fly. Otherwise, that is deceptive and unjust to his colleagues.

Places where you WILL fly do not hide this - another is Geisinger in Pennsylvania.
 
Perhaps BKN or some of the senior residents and attendings could answer something that came up during a discussion with a friend of mine. If someone were to get into a residency program that requires helicopter rotations and they were to discovered after getting started that they either were terrified to fly aboard helos or suffered intractable motion sickness, etc.....what would happen to them? Would they be exempted? Would they be required to transfer out? Just wondering....


Metro has a lot of flight experience but we've had people opt out. We have enough backup if it's really a problem. We work dedicated flight shifts, so the structure is a little different than Chicago and Cinci, etc. Not flying wouldn't keep you from completing our residency.

mike
 
OK, so I can scratch the following programs off my list (not because I get nauseous, but because I don't believe in aeromedical scene responses and don't care to risk my neck):
Geisinger
University of Chicago
UMass

Any other programs to avoid for someone in my position or one similar to my friends?
 
scratch Cinci... I'm pretty sure IU has a dedicated flight team too.
 
You can go through Cinci's program and have flown on at least 150 flights. Plus, the flight suits they get look cool. Everyone seemed to enjoy their "H doc" shifts.
 
You know, it would be pretty sweet to have docs show up in helicopter and then rappel in air assault style...completely unrealistic but still sweet.
 
scratch Cinci... I'm pretty sure IU has a dedicated flight team too.

At Indy our flight program (lifeline) isn't required, but I don't know of anyone that doesn't do it. In fact, many people cite the strong flight program as one of their reasons for ranking IU highly (autonomy, out of hospital experience, etc). Folks that opt out work additional shifts during their department months to make up for the time they aren't flying. R2/3s fly on an MD/RN crew and are in charge, though it is very much a team effort and we get great advice from the very experienced RNs that fly with us.
 
OK, so I can scratch the following programs off my list (not because I get nauseous, but because I don't believe in aeromedical scene responses and don't care to risk my neck):

This begs the question:

Is there vigorous debate in the world of Emergency Care surrounding "aeromedical scene responses?" What do some of you more experienced folk have to say about it?
 
Froedtert/MCW residents fly PGY 2 and 3
 
You know, it would be pretty sweet to have docs show up in helicopter and then rappel in air assault style...completely unrealistic but still sweet.

sign up for the coast guard.
 
So just to be clear: you couldn't be at U of C and "opt out" of flying?
 
This begs the question:

Is there vigorous debate in the world of Emergency Care surrounding "aeromedical scene responses?" What do some of you more experienced folk have to say about it?

I wouldn't call it vigorous debate. I think most of the cynics like myself don't bother, since it wouldn't do any good to debate it. Money and changing or protecting referral patterns between hospitals is driving this. I'm told that at one time there were 5 different competing hospital services in Phoenix. Back when it was a much smaller town.😕

As with most EMS topics, the lit on this is fairly poor. There is no evidence supporting the use of this for on scene response. There is some evidence that it is on average harmful. There is no question that on scene medical helicopter flights are among the most dangerous of all aviation tasks. That's because they fly in marginal conditions to unprepared sites. Think telephone wires in the dark. Think Crew, Patient and Doctor dying. Dropkick is right, it's happened a lot.

My experience started just after the Vietnam war as an Intern and then a flight surgeon in central Texas. Did a few flights with my patients on the Medevac from Del Rio to San Antone. then I received patients from the Maryland Police choppers as a resident. Then more Medevac when running a Air Force ED in NW Florida. Last 23 years in Far West Texas with long trips, at the edge of the fuel loads. First Medevac, now a private service based in Southern New Mexico. I've had little recent urban experience with this. Our in-city transport times are a few minutes.

Here's what I've concluded:

1. The chopper almost always takes longer. That's because it's usually called by the ambulance on the scene. It has to spin up, go out and back. Even if it's air speed is 2.5 times ground speed, they still get to me an hour later than an ambulance launched at the same time as the helicopter is called to the incident 90 miles away. I believe this is why there is some evidence that trauma does better with ground transport. I think some are just bleeding to death or herniating while waiting for a ride.

2. Choppers are not for medical care, transport only. Very little can be done in the air. In the old days, it was difficult to even to be sure that the patient had a pulse. You certainly couldn't monitor even the ECG. The equipment and personnel may be better today, but I doubt that the basic problem has changed.

3. Bringing better personnel to the scene sounds good, but it may make more sense just to bring the patient to the better personnel in their hospital with an OR and blood bank to back them up.

4. On scene helicopter transport can be justified in only four special situations:

a. Large urban settings with traffic gridlock
b. mountainous areas with windy roads and very slow ambulance ground speeds
c. wilderness rescues, far from roads
d. systems where the choppers are already out in the periphery so they don't have to go out and back. Examples: Maryland state police, Southwest Air in Arizona and New Mexico.

Nuff said. The proponents are free to post their objections, but I'm not going to debate it. As I say, I don't think it will make any difference because of the $$ incentive.
 
I wouldn't call it vigorous debate. I think most of the cynics like myself don't bother...

Enlightening as usual.

The other question I would have is how much does flight really add to your education as an EM resident? I remember once asking a doc who worked in EM what he would do if he happened upon some catastrophic scene (like a bad MVA). His response, which I will never forget, was "as little as possible until the medics get there, then get the hell out of their way."

I have no interest in flying in helicopters, so I guess some of these programs will just be OTL.
 
One of the benefits of airlifting patients out of small, rural counties, is that it allows the ALS units in that county to stay in service. Some rural counties may only have one or two ambulances serving their county. By a helicopter transporting the most seriously injured to distant trauma centers (as opposed to the local hospital), it allows the ambulance to tend to its local citizens instead of being out of service for two hours.
 
That's why you transport to the local hospital and then let them transfer the patient out if necessary. I recall seeing a study that said that patients who are flown to trauma centers from the scene tend to be overtriaged by the local medics.
 
That's why you transport to the local hospital and then let them transfer the patient out if necessary. I recall seeing a study that said that patients who are flown to trauma centers from the scene tend to be overtriaged by the local medics.
I prefer overtriage as opposed to undertriage. Many community ED docs hold onto seriously ill patients a lot longer than they need to when their community hospital can't handle them because of lack of specialists, equipment, etc.
 
I prefer overtriage as opposed to undertriage. Many community ED docs hold onto seriously ill patients a lot longer than they need to when their community hospital can't handle them because of lack of specialists, equipment, etc.
You have a point, but if the choice is between the patient being in the field with no care because of a lack of ambulances, or in a community hospital ER, I'd rather go with the ER. But I do agree with you.....the local hospitals tend to not transfer soon enough.
 
4. On scene helicopter transport can be justified in only four special situations:

a. Large urban settings with traffic gridlock
b. mountainous areas with windy roads and very slow ambulance ground speeds
c. wilderness rescues, far from roads
d. systems where the choppers are already out in the periphery so they don't have to go out and back. Examples: Maryland state police, Southwest Air in Arizona and New Mexico.

I would definitely add very rural counties. Growing up in Nevada, a significant fraction of the state has extremely long drives to hospitals, and even then, the hospitals are small and not equipped to handle major trauma, etc. This was especially a problem for rural MVAs--flying those patients to Reno, Las Vegas, or Salt Lake City get them to a well-equipped trauma center far faster than having a ground ambulance take them to a very small community ER.
 
It seemed like we called for flights pretty often, but our response district size and the proactivity with which we usually called meant we weren't on scene very long before the helo got there. We had talked with all the services that our district used and they all said they'd rather us call early and then call 'em off than call late. They said they could always reroute if they had to, and likely be at a second call faster than if they were still on the ground.

A lot of times we would have a 10-15 min trip to the local hosp, or they could be at a level one in just a few minutes longer...and being a good ALS service we had patients pretty much good to go so the flight crews didn't have to do much, just maintain for the ride...

What is the aim of programs that use residents in this capacity? Of course, education, but I guess what do they do? Or moreover, what do they do beyond what the EMT-P and CCRN (what most here fly with) are already able to do?

I'll use the same list people are r/o to narrow down the ones I want 👍
 
Here's what I've concluded:

4. On scene helicopter transport can be justified in only four special situations:

a. Large urban settings with traffic gridlock
b. mountainous areas with windy roads and very slow ambulance ground speeds
c. wilderness rescues, far from roads
d. systems where the choppers are already out in the periphery so they don't have to go out and back. Examples: Maryland state police, Southwest Air in Arizona and New Mexico.

Those were the criteria we were given for calling for the helicopter, with two more (well, 1 1/2). Beyond gridlock, it was also for transport time over 30 minutes, which, in our area, also included ice and snow. It was NOT uncommon to have a sunny day with black ice that slowed you to under 10mph.

The other was if the unit calling was BLS only, and didn't have ALS backup - so the helicopter (and medic) were simply functioning as ALS providers, even if the helicopter medic rode the ambulance in (as happened when the carload of strippers hit a telephone pole - true story!).
 
as happened when the carload of strippers hit a telephone pole - true story!

Amen.....amen. :meanie:

"I need to listen to your breast, uh, I mean breath sounds....yeah, that's it!"
 
4. On scene helicopter transport can be justified in only four special situations:

a. Large urban settings with traffic gridlock
b. mountainous areas with windy roads and very slow ambulance ground speeds
c. wilderness rescues, far from roads
d. systems where the choppers are already out in the periphery so they don't have to go out and back. Examples: Maryland state police, Southwest Air in Arizona and New Mexico.

You failed to mention one of the most common scene response calls.... prolonged extrication. When the pt has an extrication time of greater than 30 minutes, we often arrive way before the patient is dislodged from the vehicle. And a 2.5 x air vs ground speed is a very low estimate. If the helicopter flies at 150 mph, and the ambulance drives at 50 mph than this is a 3 x increase in speed. This doesn't even account for the fact that the ambulance does not take a straight path and also must stop + start with traffic. It's more like a 5-7 x increase in speed when you factor everything in, plus they're going to go straight to a trauma center instead of a community ED first.
 
If you think you will "opt out" of flying, do NOT come to UofC. It is definitely required.
 
I have nothing to back this up but I wouldn't be suprised if more people die each year during helicopter transport than truly benefit from it.
 
I have nothing to back this up but I wouldn't be suprised if more people die each year during helicopter transport than truly benefit from it.
Agreed wholeheartedly.
 
I have nothing to back this up but I wouldn't be suprised if more people die each year during helicopter transport than truly benefit from it.

If I saw some data to support that I would eat my hat.
 
I have nothing to back this up but I wouldn't be suprised if more people die each year during helicopter transport than truly benefit from it.

Even if true, wouldn't some of that stem from the population of pt's flown, i.e. unstable?

And while the former would be much easier, how would you quantify those that benefit?
 
Even if true, wouldn't some of that stem from the population of pt's flown, i.e. unstable?

And while the former would be much easier, how would you quantify those that benefit?

I will state that air evac helos crash at a much higher frequency than do standard helos. And the patients aren't the only ones that die. There is plenty of literature to support that, and if I could search it from the apartment I am in, I would show you.
 
I believe there was a study done that showed if you work as a flight nurse for a certain number of years (I believe it was 10 or 15, maybe 20, but I am not certain) that you're chances of being in a "significant incident" (read as: euphemism for 'crashing') is something on the order of 45%.
 
I will state that air evac helos crash at a much higher frequency than do standard helos. And the patients aren't the only ones that die. There is plenty of literature to support that, and if I could search it from the apartment I am in, I would show you.

Noted. I didn't consider crew...
 
Noted. I didn't consider crew...

That was what I was getting at. How many people die in crashes vs. how many truly benefit.

I think Dr Bryan Bledsoe (caught part of a lecture) is doing/is a part of a huge metastudy evaluating >30k aeromedical transports with outcomes, deaths from crashes ect.

I'll see if I can't find more on it and post a link...
 
I think Dr Bryan Bledsoe (caught part of a lecture) is doing/is a part of a huge metastudy evaluating >30k aeromedical transports with outcomes, deaths from crashes ect.

It is very, very difficult to reasonbly evaluate something objectively when you are so biased prior to your research.

Bledsoe evaluating whether helicopter transport is beneficial to outcomes is like a Catholic priest evaluating whether God exists.
 
I believe there was a study done that showed if you work as a flight nurse for a certain number of years (I believe it was 10 or 15, maybe 20, but I am not certain) that you're chances of being in a "significant incident" (read as: euphemism for 'crashing') is something on the order of 45%.


OK, this is getting fairly ridiculous. Air medical transport is a relatively small field. If you have a crash, it's dramatic and has the potential to skew small ns. I could put the same spin on the danger of Ned the paramedic flooring it 60 mph down residential streets for a 104 year old in cardiac arrest.

Also, not all helicopter services are the same. You would have to compare type of helicopter, number of pilots, type of area (I would guess that doing mountain rescue would increase danger).

Lastly, the helicopter does not just give "a fast ride" to the trauma center. Critical care starts in the field. Airways are secured with paralytics, chest tubes are placed, trauma lines are placed, blood is given, I can do a FAST while we're starting resuscitation.

Can a system like this be abused? Frequently. Can this system make a difference in select critical patients? I don't have any doubt.

mike
 
It is very, very difficult to reasonbly evaluate something objectively when you are so biased prior to your research.

Bledsoe evaluating whether helicopter transport is beneficial to outcomes is like a Catholic priest evaluating whether God exists.

I thought Bledsoe was anti-helicopter??
 
I thought Bledsoe was anti-helicopter??

He is...

Isn't this why research can almost never be taken at face value? Southerndoc is right of course...
 
I wasn't familiar with Bledsoe, so I googled his name (I was too lazy to go to pubmed).

His website's image is pretty hilarious:
http://www.bryanbledsoe.com/

splashimg.jpg
 
My point was that it is the opposite, that's all.

However, I get it, too.
My point is that both are passionate about their cause... the Catholic priest that God exists and Bledsoe that helicopters are useless and dangerous.

Both will have a hard time evaluating research in an objective manner.
 
My point is that both are passionate about their cause... the Catholic priest that God exists and Bledsoe that helicopters are useless and dangerous.

Both will have a hard time evaluating research in an objective manner.

:laugh: :laugh:

Beautiful analogy!

Truly. Beautiful.

Take care,
Jeff
 
My local for EMS has a level II trauma center within 5min of the substation and a second level II trauma center about 15-20min drive at max, and a third level II trauma center again around 15-20min. The only cases we consider flying patients are ped's and burns, or cases where you just didn't think it would happen and you call them. I believe University Medvac/Temple put a bird at Holy R and we have been told its fly time is within 10min so if you think you need it, call it and call it early.

I would really be up front and honest if you didn't think you could, or know you can't fly not to waste the spot. If I could go a little off topic what do EM programs require to get medical command for EMS?
 
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