Question about choosing a caribbean school

[Baditude]

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Hi there. I am a non traditional student considering applying to a caribbean school. I have thought about Ross SGU AUC and Saba.
Any suggestions? Where are clinicals done? Would I want to bring my family(kids 11&7)? Any help would be appreciated! I am on hold at a DO school and I am not sure I want to go through the whole process again next year.

 

[whopper]

I've been in an American school and a Carribean school, I've attended SGU and New York Medical College.

I got to tell you that most American schools blow the Carribean schools out of the water, and I'm not talking academics because SGU has average board scores that are much better than many American allopathic schools.

I'm talking living conditions.

Most of the Carribean schools I've seen have some horrendous living conditions. SGU though in the last 2 years has made dorms that are on par with American schools or are even better.

SGU also has done many questionable actions while I was over there. Example one term they tried to force all the students to buy their food from their cafeteria, and students got food poisoning quite often from this place. The food was terrible and on top of that, the member of the administration that pushed this policy ate a catered meal from a 5 star hotel everyday and wouldn't touch the cafeteria food with a 10 foot pole except on 1 day where he went to the cafeteria to sell the idea (yeah big whoopee...you'll eat dog food 1 meal so you can make another 50,000 a year while forcing us to eat dog food 10 months a year). It was to the point where guards were actually checking our bags to see if we brought in outside sources of food. Such an activity would've been illegal in the US. The policy was defeated, not because the student government fought hard to defeat it (the student gov really has no power despite the reps there working very hard), but because it got to the point where students were so angry they were threatening to call newspapers in the US and some were even considering vandalizing the cafeteria.

And to add insult to injury, these guards weren't doing a thing to protect us. They wouldn't stop random locals from wandering in on campus who'd rob the students, but ok they check our bags to make sure we don't buy grocery food.

This specific incident occurred about 3.5 years ago on the True Blue Campus of SGU, and if you really want to fish around, call up the Student Gov, its in their records that it happened, though I doubt the current SGU student gov reps know of the incident (hey we're only there 2 years, and you don't know what happens after you leave).

Before you slam SGU off your list, its one of the better if not the best Carribean school out there, and all the other schools do things on the same order or worse.

From what I've seen at SGU and what I've heard at other schools, incidents like these are quite common. The movie theater in Grenada (where SGU is) had bats on the ceiling, and had you wiped off the seat with a paper towel, the first few strokes would've been black. Sewers are above ground, not below, so when while walking on the streets, the smell of sewage is in the air everywhere.

For myself, the experience was not a good one because I was one of the guys in student government constantly fighting and questioning some of the unethical and strange policies going on there. E.g...your air conditioning breaks, they don't fix it for weeks but you're still charged. Its the nature of the country...people there are extremely laid back and usually only work about 40% of the work day they're supposed to. We in the US are used to different standards. Fine and dandy (for argument's sake, when you're in the situation it sucks), but then don't charge me for air conditioning when I don't get it.

Most of my buddies spent their freetime on the beach getting drunk. They had fun in their spare time, while I was one of the guys constantly telling my higher ups that some of their actions were illegal but to no avail...so my experience was much more negative than theirs. My sessions with my school's administration were like old SNL episodes where Martin Short was playing that lawyer Nathan Thurm...

me: How can you do this when this action is blatantly illegal?
them: No its not.
me: I have a copy of the laws and according to this article, what you're doing is illegal...
them: well how can we be doing this if it was illegal?
me: well maybe the fact that there's no law enforcement in this country and that you're providing this country with a lot of money has a lot to do with it...

Hey...call me a trouble maker but I actually think the law should be obeyed. We also had a former practicing lawyer in our student government and he couldn't believe the amount of corruption going on at the school.

Anyways, was it a character builder? Yes,. but then again there's some things not worth going through. Example, some guys I knew were attacked by stray dogs which are rampant in these countries. They were in sight of the school's guards who did nothing. When they managed to get to the guards, they asked the guards to call the clinic and the guards didn't do it. They had to walk to the clinic, then the guards asked them to carry some boxes for them to the clinic because they didn't want to do it themselves. This isn't fictional rumor...I was there when it happened. They got scars on their legs...call it a character builder, I call it negligence.

However was the experience worth it? To get my MD yes it was, and for a student to go through those experiences, I'd give them points though I still knock the schools. Any Carribean grad with good scores and does just as well in the interviews is in my opinion probably a stronger person than an American schoool graduate with the same grades/scores/affability in interviews.

And most of the SGU students I've talked to who came to SGU after this incident and after many of the better buildings were built have it a lot better than I had it when I was over there. The living conditions have dramatically improved in the last few years. The other carribean schools are probably were SGU was at years ago.

If I were you'd I'd pick SGU because its probably the best of the lot. Academically its a good school though there's a lot of things about living there which are an issue, but will happen at any Carribean school at probably a worse extreme.

Despite my critcisms of the life at SGU, these problems happen at the other Carribean schools as well, and because SGU has a better reputation, better living conditions thanks to the new facilities, these things happen less at SGU than the other Carribean schools.

The clinicals at SGU are excellent. They have a wide array of hospital choices, much more so than the other carribean schools and have some clinical centers where you can do many of your rotations without switching locations..and these are good hospitals such as St. Barnabas in Livingston NJ.

As for interviews, most of my places are impressed with SGU grads and hold them in high esteem.

 

[Brian Pavlovitz]

You'll hear good and bad about Grenada. My experience was pretty tolerable (I'm currently finishing up Basic Sciences in St. Vincent). Granted, things move rather slowly there, and of course, there are some "questionable" things that go on, but I think you'll find that at any medical school.

The food on campus is pretty bad; I opted to eat at home (lost a little weight, too).

A few of my friends brought their familes, and to be honest, I don't know how they did it. They seemed to do just fine, however. Not sure about the schools down there, especially for children.

I think the experience definitely builds character (and makes you realize how good we actually have it in the U.S.), and I think you'll be a better physician for it. Nothing there is easy (even going to the bank is an ordeal), but if you don't let that sort of thing get to you, you'll have a MUCH better experience. It really goes by quickly.

As far as education, SGU has a great track record with the USMLE, and graduates tend to do very well. There are plenty of spots in decent hospitals for Clinical Rotations, too.

Good Luck!

 

[whopper]

Granted, things move rather slowly there, and of course, there are some "questionable" things that go on, but I think you'll find that at any medical school.

Brian, no offense but as a fellow student from SGU and remember I've been in 2 medical schools (mentioned above), worked at a 3rd doing research (UMDNJ Robert Wood Johnson New Brunswick), took classes at a 4th during my rotations (UMDNJ Robert Wood Johnson Camden) I can honestly tell you that the "questionable" things don't happen in schools in the US.

No US school would've ever forced its students to only be able to buy food from the school and no other source. Its utterly, umambiguously illegal, even by Grenadan law (remember I had a liscened lawyer working with me in the Student Gov of SGU).

But there's a hell of a lot of things I bet you do see going on in front of your face such as the school's copy guys never making copies for your lectures on time, while they're using the school's printers (all financed by your tuittion) to make flyers for local pizza places that are paying these copy guys to get us to go to their pizza joints. Happened to me while I was there. Again this WOULD NEVER HAPPEN in pretty much all the US schools. Ah...the joy of going to a lecture with no handout and the lecturer completely designed his lecture for you to read off the handout. But oh yeah, I got an ad for a pizza place in St. Vincents.

Though those other things do happen in other Carribean schools.

Again, SGU from what I've seen, in terms of living conditions, board pass rates, clinical oppurtunities and regard from programs is the best of the carribean schools as far as I know...though if you got a choice between SGU and DO schools, I'd think long and hard about the living conditions. Most DO's I've met had no problems whatsoever and didn't have to go through the heck all of us carribean students had to go through.

 

[Baditude]

Hey there,
Well you two have given me lots to think about!! From what you said I don't think I would bring my family unless maybe I went to SABA ( I heard good things about the island) I would take the position in a DO school if offered but for financial reason I think if I am not offered a seat this year in a DO school I am going to have to consider a caribbean school. I heard SGU is best reputation wise but how do the other schools rate? I am particularily interested in SABA, AUC, and St. Lukes.
The whole stray dog thing really bothers me .... I really don't want to fight off dogs to get to class. Also what about off campus housing? Also what about danger to US citizens outside of the resort areas? Especially in Belize (St. Matthews?)

Thanks for all you help.

 

[awdc]

Wow, all I can say is that Ross doesn't have food issues like SGU. Nor do we have dorms so there are no dorm problems. Just deal with your landlord, some are great, some are not-so-great. I definitely wouldn't call my experience here at Ross/Dominica worst than how whopper described his experience at SGU. In fact, after reading whopper's experience at SGU, Ross actually sounds much better. I've been happy here so I guess I don't have much to complain about. However, many of my classmates do abhor living here. I'm just too busy or preoccupied with studying to notice much. Living here is definitely a character builder and you will appreciate the U.S. like never before.

And at Ross, there are quite a number of families. Would you want to bring them is entirely you and your familiy's decision.

In terms of academics and reputation. I think most would agree that Ross falls a close second to SGU.

 

[whopper]

AWDC and Baditude...

I don't know what its like at Ross but when I have conversations with Ross students they actually make me think Ross was worse.

SGU's living accomodations on their True Blue Campus are actually quite extraordinary. They're actually better than most American school dorms.

However these dorms will not accomodate families. If you want your family living with you Baditude, it'd probably be better for you to live off campus. I don't know where your kids will goto school and I think they'd be better off in an American school system if you can have them live with your parents or something like that.

The stray dog issue was bad on St. Vincents. That island is where you spend your last term in the 2nd half of your 2nd year. At SGU at Grenada where you spend your first year and half, there are too many strays but they weren't dangerous. They're all starving to death so they are very nice to humans becuase there's no other way for the dogs to get food. At St. Vincents which is much less developed and has lots of open spaces, it was to the point where I'd occasionally see packs of wild dogs and it reminded me of those wolf packs, and man they would sometimes go at each other like they were wolves. A lot of us students were scared to walk out at night because of the dogs. If you had a car, you didn't have to worry because you didn't have to walk to school from your off campus place. You ran the risk of getting attacked by a dog when you walked at night.

The food issue, well the food at SGU sucks, but they dropped that "we force you to buy our terrible food at inflated prices" policy, but the school now and then pulls something which makes you wonder what the heck these guys are doing, but the same goes for all the Carribean schools. Another caribbean school I heard would not give their students their loan checks for a few months so the administration of that school could put the money into a high interest bank account where they took the interest for themselves. At Ross (and this IS A TRUE STORY) in the 90's, the US tried to extradite a drug lord from that island, and in response he said if any attempts were made to extradite him, he'd kill all the Ross students.

I haven't been to Ross or SABA, but I really honestly think you're best off at SGU--if you pick a carribean school. Many Ross students I know are having problems finding rotations. SGU students don't have any problems there, and your'e better off finding a residency being an SGU grad. No offense to Ross students..and honestly, anyone who graduates from Ross is probably very mentally strong.

If you get into a DO school, I think given that you have a family and that your kids should get the best education possible, you're better going off to a DO school...all of which are in the states.

If you'd like to talk at length, give me an email or PM and I'll give you my phone number. WE can talk at length.

 

[erichaj]

guys, you are going to a poor country/island. get real. they are both hard to live in.
why don't you compromise, one of the schools can be the harvard of the carabean and the other the johns hopkins.

come on man, if you are going out there, you better understand that life is going to be hard. I went to ross and life was hard for a while. sounds like someone else went to sgu and life was hard for a while.

by the way, who care if you went to US school and took classes at US medical school. get real. you went to sgu and graduated from sgu, right? So the rest is not that important. What is important is that you are now either an MD or on your way to being one.

 

[Brian Pavlovitz]

whopper--

I suppose it was unfair for me to comment on a U.S. medical school since I've never been to one. I decided to combat the food problem on my own--by making things myself. They certainly do have a lot of "backwards" thinking down there. Case in point: The SGU mailroom decided to open a small coffee shop (complete with yummy Starbucks coffee). Well, once the administration got wind of this, they said it had to close becuase the mailroom wasn't staffed by "Grenadians". Things like that are definitely a pain. But, I figure your time there is short (relatively speaking); I decided to focus on my studies rather than Grenadian or SGU politics.

You are RIGHT ON about the copy people here--I don't think we've had lecture notes before the lectures for a good 60% of the time! So much for reading ahead. And what's up with the Pharmacology course? Nothing like learning on your own!! We have our first exam this Monday, and I will be very interested to see how it turns out.

Anyhow, since I'm almost done with the Caribbean, I think in general it was a good experience. There were a lot of hassles, but I think it will be worth it in the end.

--Brian

 

[whopper]

Brian, good for you. When I left the islands I was SO SO SO relieved. Good luck, and when you get to the states, everything is gravy afterwards...well up until you realize you better get your ass in gear for step II.

Brian if you got any questions pm/ email me and maybe I can give you some help or advice for which rotations to goto. There's plenty I'd like to talk to you about for prepping yourself up for the ERAS applications that the school doesn't tell you but darn well should.

I agree with you that much of the hardships are good character builders, but I also think the school in many respects such as with these copy guys don't give a rat's ass about us. These guys have been making the same mistakes FOR SEVERAL YEARS..and no one on the administration will do anything about it. Even when guys like me who were in student gov fought tooth and nail to get something done.

who care if you went to US school and took classes at US medical school. get real. you went to sgu and graduated from sgu, right? So the rest is not that important. What is important is that you are now either an MD or on your way to being one.

No I didn't graduate from SGU. However the point of mentioning that I've been to other schools was to clarify the point that the problems at SGU as well as the Carribean schools don't happen in US schools. By being enrolled in an American school and working in other schools, I can validly make fair comparisons to each.

Further, many of the more competitive residency programs in certain fields do prejudice themselves against foreign students. While this is certainly not the case with programs that have had a large number of SGU students, and some of the lesser competitive fields such as Psychiatry which I do want to enter, the more competitive fields do sometimes hold the IMG status against you.

If you goto the Psychiatry section of the forum, I wrote a thread where an attending cussed me out during my interview. While I didn't write it in that thread: His major cussing point was that I attended a foriegn school, and he totally disregarded that I did also attended an American school, and passed my boards fine. While he was the only one to have done that out of my over 50 interviewers, this type of ignorant attitude happens in the more competitive fields more often.

While I do agree that this attitude is indeed wrong, some people in the field have it, and the IMGs have the deal with it. Believe me, I don't like the corruption that goes on at these schools, but for the most part the students are victims of their corruption who have worked hard and passed more hurdles than American students have to face, and I respect any IMG with the same scores and affability more than a comparable American graduate.

 

[EMT036]

For additional information on this thread, go to:

http://www.valuemd.com/viewtopic.php?t=13428

 

[whopper]

I wrote this on the other board...

1. SGU never ever ever 'searched bags for outside food'. You are well within your right to bring anything you want onto campus with you. How the hell are they going to search every single bag 1000 students bring in and out with them daily?? How the hell do you figure grocery shopping into this? What about gum and candy?? Seriously.. anyone with an ounce of common sense can see through this.

Not true. They did search the bags of students. However what this person neglected to mention was that the policy was stopped once certain SGA members found it out and complained about it. The guards did examine the bags of a handful of students. IT did not get around to the entire campus. When you're a student who spends 12 hrs a day studying and aren't invovled in the SGA meetings you don't see these things going on...After talking to certain SGA members, they narrowed the items to food being sold on campus, while originally it did concern groceries.

2. For a period of a couple of weeks no off campus food providers were allowed past the true blue gate. Instead they would call us from the bottom of the hill by the old library and we would run down and get the food from them.

True
What happened was that the policy originally was going to cover ALL food. Even grocery food. Then certain SGA officials narrowed it down to the food being made and sold on campus.

3. SGA has ZERO power and a spine to match. Their involvement in this ordeal was non existant.

Absolutely true though there were specific people that did put up a fight. Specifically Kawika Liu, Matt Davis, Joel See among others, other SGA reps didn't do a damn thing because they were scared the school would later hold it against them. SGA was the type of situation where there were some people really trying to do something, others seeing what SGA could do for them.

As for lecture notes: they have always been good about it giving course note- i can't say if anything has changed but I've news for ytou- in most medical schools in the US you dont get course notes: at best you get a note service.

The reason why SGU got better in their notes was that specific individuals in student gov got the SO's (significant others) working in the SGA mail room to deliver notes instead of the grenadan locals. SGA did make a difference there. However SGA was not allowed to do this in the St. Vincent's Island campus. Beecause of that, at St. Vincents, at least till I was there, we still had crappy delivery of our notes. As can be seen in the original thread, one student confirms the crapulence that's still going on with the note distribution.

I was part of SGA when this incident happened. There was alot of debate amongst the student body and SGA when it occurred and basically there was nothing that SGA could do about it.

I was too...Who are you? Private mail me. We need to catch up on things!

It turned out to be much ado about nothing since the school could never institute a policy of mandating students to eat only on campus. It can NEVER happen. So while there was a minor incident, the author of the post on SDN was way off.

Never happen? Hmm, while I was at SGU a lot of shady things happened. If you think being forced to by food in a monopoly is minor or getting attacked by dogs is minor...well hmm, I wonder how you'd feel if you were mugged at gunpoint by a local while a guard is seeing it and does nothing to stop it..in fact doesn't even report it. These things happened before and happened after I was there. I can talk about a heck of a lot of other things such as when the President of SGA was threatened by a member of the school to get kicked out for talking back at him etc.

IF you actually goto the original forum where this was taken, I did also say that SGU is the best choice to go to out of all the IMG schools that I know of.

I will also say this in defense of SGU as I did on the other board. The problems at SGU happen at other Carribean medical schools. I've talked to dozens of Carribean IMGs and they say the same type of stuff or worse has happened. Further the school has greatly improved itself over the years and will continue to do so with its extensions of campus, better dorms etc. The problems encountered a few years ago that I mentioned did happen. Many SGU grads will whitewash the school because they don't want the school to look bad, because they know full well they will encounter more hurdles than American grads, and they seek to lessen the hurdles, I understand that viewpoint given that much of the prejudice against foreign grads is unwarranted. Further I even defended foreign grads to a radio station that was portraying them as bad in Boston. I wrote the following....

One thing that bugs me about these articles from this source is their
presentation although factually accurate, I feel are misleading to certain
foreign schools.

example, to the uneducated on the process: there are many schools such as St.
George's University located in Grenada which does produce graduates with board
scores on par with US schools, even surpassing many of them. SGU students have
earned a reputation for being competent.

Someone looking at these articles can be mislead into thinking that all IMGs are
sub par.

Further...there are the USMLE 1, 2, 3, the CSA, the liscencing board exams, the
residency programs..

To report as if its the school's fault when these people passed these
requirements, shouldn't you also be blaming the USMLE, the CSA and the
liscencing boards?

Let's face it. A med school can have a 10% board pass rate. Those that do pass
the boards deserve to advance. Of course the low board pass rate would make me
not even consider that school...but you get the point.

Also, I've met many many fine graduates who are top level physicians who are
from U. of Guadalajara. This report makes all graduates from that program look
bad. One of these docs I've worked with is Dr. John Ruiz, Assistant Director at
Mountainside Family Practice, and this same guy won the Family Physician of the
Year award...(I think I got the award right). ITs one of the
highest praises you can get in the profession.

I do knock foreign schools because of the way they treat their students like
commodities, but these students go through a lot of hard knocks. If they can
pass their requirements and be good doctors, they should be respected as such.

If you also do your research many foreign medical school students have scored
truly impressive USMLE board scores that blow the overwhelming majority of US
students' scores. Should these foreign graduates also be cast into the brand of
sub par?

AGain, I realize that your article was factually accurate but it does present it
as if all foriegn schools are terrible, while there are many doctors from these
programs that are doing excellent work.

My response to this entity, more specifically...
Here & Now
WBUR/WRNI
890 Commonwealth Avenue
Boston, MA 02215
617-358-0397

is being considered for announcement on their radio station and they asked me for my persmission to air it.

However I will not pretend that SGU does not have its faults nor that some of the things its done I felt were utterly and unambiguously unethical. SGU still is the best place to go to if you didn't get into a US medical school. That doesn't mean I have to like what happened there or pretend it didn't happen. I wrote the above comments because someone wanted to know what its like. I answered and mentioned the GOOD & the BAD.

 

[stephew]

I have to say that this is a mountain out of a molehill with regard to the medical school and caribbean experience. And the notion that this doesnt happen in the us.. i wish that were true; i could tell you horror stories in the us which begin with stupid things students have to do due to politcs and end with cases of child abuse covered up for political reasons. Lets say this sgu whole story is completely true for the sake of argument. Its a drop in the bucket. There are better (worse) fights out there and yes, at us schools. I think this story lacks a seating of perspective.
With respect I think much larger issues are lost if this is presented as The Sgu Experience rather than a little story of sgu folly that ultimately and rightly failed.

 

[FunnyLookingKid]

Originally posted by whopper
.

No US school would've ever forced its students to only be able to buy food from the school and no other source. Its utterly, umambiguously illegal, even by Grenadan law (remember I had a liscened lawyer working with me in the Student Gov of SGU).
.

I have a pretty good memory of being forced to buy a meal plan when I lived in my united states college dorm.

I was also forced to buy a meal plan while living in the dorm in medical school.

off-shore schools are FOR PROFIT places trying to maximize funds.

yes It's a bit shady, but what can you do. I've had to put up with a lot more BULL CRAP from state medical societies and especially from Draconian hospital medical priviliges committees ( like forcing me to pay fines if I don't make mandatory ( worthless) committee meetings.

get used to bending over and grabbing the ankles, no matter where you train

Remember : as coach Bobby Knight said " If rape is inevitable, lay back and enjoy it "

 

[stephew]

thats a good point about hte college meal plan (not the rape- and wasn't it a weatherman who said it?) Anyway again weeny stupid issue that blew over. As for the for profit things: absolutely the schools are.. but dont fool yourselves; these guy here at hopkins and most private schools are not philanthropsits. They are raking it in. the issue is their academic pride too. Sgu has some degree of that (sometimes in spite of itself)

 

[micdoc]

Hi. I'm finishing up at SGU and will try to answer your questions. Among the Caribbean schools, SGU def. has the best rep. and will open the most doors for you down the line. It's quite a hefty tuition though..around 180-200k but well worth it. i feel i got an excellent structured education. I and most of my classmates did really well on Step I and Step II and I'm pretty much an average student whom SGU helped train into an above avg. student. i did not have ANY of the bad experiences the previous posters mentioned. It's a foreign/developing country..one would be naive to think that everything would be fine and dandy. Most of the people who can't handle the transition usually leave after the 1st week or after 1st term. The few students who brought kids with them had children who were not in school so I'm not sure how that would work out. The campus itself is gorgeous and it's like a mini-US in paradise type setting. Aside from an occasional poweroutage, I did not have any problems like stray dogs, robberies, although I'm sure other students have had bad experiences. But if you're smart, you should be able to avoid them. Politics happen at all schools, maybe more so at private institutions but overall I felt the school made a conscientous effort to make us feel at home in a far away land. Overall, you work hard and you play hard. Where else can you get a kick ass education and go island hopping after exams and have fun at the gorgeous beaches or local hangout spots on the weekends. Going to SGU def. made medical school an enjoyable experience. Clinical years are obviously not as good as US schools but comparable. There are quite a few good clincal centers and rotations are pretty structured as well, except you're more in the hands of the physicians at these hospitals rather than in SGU's, but luckily there are some alumni at the hospitals who ensure an excellent clinical education. I've rotated with students from Downstate, Cornell,NYCOM, etc and felt that we got a comparable clinical education. In terms of residencies, coming from a foreign school, certain ones are kinda out of your reach like derm, plastics, rad-onc but things like optho, ortho, etc are doable. The rest, the top notch residencies in IM or peds might be out of your reach but I've been interviewing with students from among the better med schools for IM positions and we do really well in terms of placement.

I don't know much about Ross, SABA, AUC and the others but these three are more established than the others. Ross is a very good school and much cheaper. Students do well on boards and get good residencies. Most students who I've spokenwith did not enjoy their experience on the island whereas most SGU students for the most part have a good time in the gorgeous ilands of Grenada and St. Vincent. AUC would probably be the next best one. Saba I hear is good but some students have trouble finishing or getting residencies. Some of the European schools are pretty good, esp. Debrecen U. in Hungary and some school in Poland, which allows you to od clinicals in the US.

In terms of DO school, if you're into osteopathic medicine and don't want to leave the country and esp. with your circumstance of having 2 kids, might be a good option. Otherwise, I'd put my money in either SGU or Ross. SGU if you plan on bringing your wife and kids. Overall 2 yrs will fly by quickly (less if you go to Ross) and you'll be back in the US, missing the gorgeous sunsets in Grenada. As you can see, i had a wonderful time in Grenada so my opinion might be a bit biased but most of my classmates whom I've spoke with feel the same way. Best of luck.


ll also and is somewhat cheaper. They also