Question about interviewing patients in the ED

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flightdoc09

Full Member
5+ Year Member
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ED doc here. I see a lot of adjustment d/o, depressed, suicidal ideations, and most of the time I can figure out quickly if they need emergent psych or not. But requesting some advice on people that just want to keep talking to me. Like, they think I am their therapist and have 30 minutes to talk to them.

I don't want to be rude, and don't want them to shut down because they think I don't care. But I also don't have that kind of time, especially when I'm solo overnight. And I was raised to not interrupt people, so I usually just try to redirect inbetween pauses.

Just wondering if y'all have any tips on this kind of interaction.

Thanks
 
This is a skill that can only be refined over time with deliberate practice and observation of others. Interestingly, I think you can learn it best from specialty surgeons, not psychiatrists (blasphemous on this board, I know). The good ones find a way to make patients think they are deeply invested in them in only a few minutes. I am absolutely amazed at the way these folks can make people feel heard and still slice through a list of dozens of patients in a few hours. I think leading with empathy and confidence in a directive manner ends up often being the best in these situations. This is a very different skill than actual psychotherapy, which is why I really think it's the neurosurgeons of the world I would be asking/modeling after.
 
This is a very good question and I'm glad you are asking it. Remember, that you are training patients with each interaction. Make sure they are learning the right lessons. I disagree with above and find you ARE functioning as their therapist and providing supportive psychotherapy as described. Psychotherapy can be harmful of course or it can be helpful, but I do agree that the ED is likely the wrong setting for many patients, particularly those most likely to actively seek it. Rather than providing this sort of psychotherapy, your time would likely be better spent personally investigating what sort of resources the patient has access to outside of the ED. You are, literally, the highest level of care available. Your role, primarily, should be getting people to a lower level of care as quickly as can be safe. Of course just turfing them out the door without a place to go is just going to lead them to come back, particularly since you've been providing such excellent support already.
So once you get the tingling that this patient is going to want to talk a lot and there isn't an emergent condition. REDIRECT. Do interrupt the patient, politely, but go in with a plan to interrupt. Send an apology letter to your mom if needed. I concur strongly with the concept of "directive" above. You are going to be providing directions to the patients and move out of the supportive psychotherapy role you have been in. However, you need to figure out what the directions are going to be. For all of your frequent flyers, you need to become intimately familiar with what resources they have. This is so much easier within an HMO like system, but if they are using Medicare or private insurance, you're going to need an intimate understanding of your local mental health or even peer resources. Have something ready and consistently redirect the patient back to using those resources when they leave the ED. Speak with your ED social worker if needed to learn, but don't rely on them for this interaction. You want to be the person providing the redirection when this sort of interaction gets started. The easier and more comfortable you get with rapid redirection, the less often this particular interaction will take place with a given patient. The more often you continue with 30 minutes of supportive psychotherapy, the more often you will be asked to provide it and ultimately slow patients from getting to the right level of care (which is not you). Redirection here is not shutting someone down, it's providing directions. It may feel like a rejection to the patient or it may feel great to them, but that's something to be processed outside the ED.
 
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You're going to have to learn to overcome your taboo against interruption. Interrupting respectfully and with varying degrees of firmness is a core skill really to all physicians, including psychiatrists. As for the role of EM doc, you might consider narrowing your questions a lot earlier in the interaction if you can tell it's a patient that wants to talk a lot.

A phrase I often use with patients who I know I will need to interrupt frequently is something like "I apologize but there are a bunch of important questions I need to get through with you, so I may start to interrupt you when you've answered a question so that we can move on to other important questions." The vast majority of patients really appreciate this. A lot of patients' word vomit is driven by an anxious need to include as many tangential details as possible, in case they're relevant. Even when we want a one word answer. When you stop them, they can breathe for a second knowing that they answered what you were asking.

As for how to interrupt, I usually start with subtle body language (deep breath in, mouth slightly open) then more overt body language ("stop" sign with the hand, although not in a forceful/rude way, or holding up a finger etc.) then verbal interruption with my normal tone of voice (you simply have to start talking when it's someone who never pauses) then intense verbal interruption (talking over them in volume, sometimes required with truly manic patients.)
 
Rather than providing this sort of psychotherapy, your time would likely be better spent personally investigating what sort of resources the patient has access to outside of the ED.
You are going to be providing directions to the patients and move out of the supportive psychotherapy role you have been in. However, you need to figure out what the directions are going to be. For all of your frequent flyers, you need to become intimately familiar with what resources they have. This is so much easier within an HMO like system, but if they are using Medicare or private insurance, you're going to need an intimate understanding of your local mental health or even peer resources.

This is the key. Letting them know that you hear them and want to help, but that they require a different kind of intervention expertise and that you want to help get them connected to that will alleviate a lot of these interactions. Sometimes patients will be forceful that YOU are the one they NEED to talk to NOW. That's a great time to practice boundary setting about what you can and cannot accomplish in the ER. Know what community resources are available, if you have a good SW team they can talk to the patient about that. The bottom line is that if you're doing supportive therapy it should be to help guide them to the next step in their treatment process, not to "fix" these people with supportive therapy in an ER.
 
1) At the START of the conversation, establish the time limitations and the fact that there is more care coming. "Hi, I'm Dr. Flightdoc, your emergency medicine doctor. My role is to take about 10 minutes to figure out what is going on with you, keep you safe, and figure out what treatment actions are next for you.".

2) Admit the limit of your expertise, using a conditional sentence structure (to limit misquoting you). " I think we both know that this treatment isn't typically taught in ER residency, so let's get you where you can get the most appropriate treatment."
 
A few of the posts above (especially comp1’s (no offense)) indicate why I am very skeptical of the “but patients are going to want to see a person for their psychiatric care” argument. I don’t think a lot of psychiatric providers have good insight into how they are perceived by patients. As a psychiatrist and administrator for over a decade, I have heard a good deal of patient feedback about psychiatrists and midlevels. There is this strange old school psychodynamic aspect that comes into play at times on the provider side especially around boundaries that patients do not appreciate or understand, and it’s honestly a bit silly. All doctors of all specialties obviously need to have boundaries, but we couch it in antiquated terminology and ideas.

Flightdoc, my advice is take as much time as you are able to listen to your patients and provide feedback. Politely let them know that time is limited. Let them know you’ve heard them and that you will refer them to an appropriate provider or have an ER social worker speak with them further.
 
Oh believe me, no offense taken. I'm abundantly aware of patient opinions. Patients share them liberally, positive or negative, immediately verbally or in thank you notes/complaint forms. I agree that many patients don't appreciate or understand boundaries. Importantly, they also aren't often in a position with the most cognitive reserve in the ED to remember and practice them. I haven't thought of all that as silly, psychodynamic or not. I've generally viewed education on boundaries as a core component of treatment, particularly in mental health, but also in the rest of medicine. The patient may ultimately decide they want to see a person outpatient or not, that's not the point of the boundary setting. We are the experts in treatment options, the patient is the expert in themselves.
 
A few of the posts above (especially comp1’s (no offense)) indicate why I am very skeptical of the “but patients are going to want to see a person for their psychiatric care” argument. I don’t think a lot of psychiatric providers have good insight into how they are perceived by patients. As a psychiatrist and administrator for over a decade, I have heard a good deal of patient feedback about psychiatrists and midlevels. There is this strange old school psychodynamic aspect that comes into play at times on the provider side especially around boundaries that patients do not appreciate or understand, and it’s honestly a bit silly. All doctors of all specialties obviously need to have boundaries, but we couch it in antiquated terminology and ideas.

Flightdoc, my advice is take as much time as you are able to listen to your patients and provide feedback. Politely let them know that time is limited. Let them know you’ve heard them and that you will refer them to an appropriate provider or have an ER social worker speak with them further.
There's some merit here, but you're missing a lot of the very relevant context. OP is NOT a psychiatrist, they are an ER physician. Even if they are good at providing supportive therapy, a 1-time administration of supportive therapy is almost certainly not going to resolve the reason the patient is in the ER and inappropriate or incorrect administration can actually create further harm in an individual who is likely in the highest acuity state they will be seen.

Additionally, many docs who practice in one setting, especially for an extended period of time, forget that the treatment goals of different settings are dramatically different and that the ER is a unique setting in the sense that it's more of a gateway into real, appropriate treatment than a location for (MH) treatment at all. The primary goal of ER psychiatry is to triage patients to determine what TYPE of treatment they need (psych vs medical), the level of treatment (OP vs IP vs involuntary), and what resources will be necessary if they can be provided there. It is NOT to administer acute treatment unless it is to maintain patient and staff safety. To the point in the previous paragraph, this does not mean that the patient should not be seen for therapy or a real psychiatrist, it just means that the ER is not the place where meaningful treatment or change is going to occur, it's essentially a holding area to ensure patient safety until we can get them to those places where meaningful treatment can happen.

All that said, there are certainly cases or situations where some brief supportive interventions can make a major difference, typically in acute stress/adjustment reactions. However, these people are the exception to the rule that the ER is largely a sorting center and that the goal of good supportive therapy is to keep the transition to the next setting as smooth and comfortable as possible.

Final point to the first bolded: I think a lot of psychiatrists have very good insight into how they're perceived and understand that they are often perceived negatively or as a barrier to what the patient really wants. I would argue that the second bolded point that the patients don't understand what is happening is the far more relevant issue though. I find a lot of patient perceptions can be guided or altered by some simple, empathetic education as to why we are making the decisions we are in the ER and why we are or aren't going to agree with the patients. Some patients won't care or can't process that information, but psychoeducation and education about the process should absolutely be part of the brief supportive therapy provided in the ER or crisis settings. I've found from repeat patients or patients who I've seen on f/up in the outpatient clinic spoked much more highly of that basic education and communication than they did about any actual treatment. Imo, if we have no insight on the patient's perspective or don't at least make an effort, then we have no business being in this field in the first place.
 
OP, perhaps EM does not fit your personality.

You aren't ED'ing if you're spending a lot of time with patients. Just drink caffeine to the point where you're shaking, overly stimulated, and jumping room to room like a real ED doc. "GSW? Thoracotomy now! Opioid seeking? Tylenol, GTFO my ED! Homeless? Sammich! Crazy? Cert'ed! Not crazy enough? GTFO! Peds psych? Stat coloring book to occupy you for a month in the ED! Shift done, need more dopamine! Gonna go base jumping! Oh, hellooo new nurse!"
 
A few of the posts above (especially comp1’s (no offense)) indicate why I am very skeptical of the “but patients are going to want to see a person for their psychiatric care” argument. I don’t think a lot of psychiatric providers have good insight into how they are perceived by patients. As a psychiatrist and administrator for over a decade, I have heard a good deal of patient feedback about psychiatrists and midlevels. There is this strange old school psychodynamic aspect that comes into play at times on the provider side especially around boundaries that patients do not appreciate or understand, and it’s honestly a bit silly. All doctors of all specialties obviously need to have boundaries, but we couch it in antiquated terminology and ideas.

Flightdoc, my advice is take as much time as you are able to listen to your patients and provide feedback. Politely let them know that time is limited. Let them know you’ve heard them and that you will refer them to an appropriate provider or have an ER social worker speak with them further.
Can you explain your first paragraph more?