Question about MD/PhD track?

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bonoz

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How different is it from an MD track?

Is it harder to get? how hard?

Does it require more time in med school?

Is it harder?

What should you take this track?


The reason I ask this is because I enjoy research aspect as well and I would still like to do research as a doctor (if I become one). So I was considering the MD/PhD track. Can regular MDs still do research?
 
How different is it from an MD track?
You complete both degrees completely. 2 years MD, 3-6 (avg ~4-5) years PhD, final 2 years of MD. It's also different in that if you get into an MD/PhD program it's generally free + stipend.

Is it harder to get? how hard?
You have the same requirements/classes everything as MD students. The only "harder" part is doing your 2 clinical years after 3-6 years off getting your PhD. The PhD is basically the same as a regular PhD, but depending on your advisor they might help you finish a little quicker.

Does it require more time in med school?
The med school part is still 4 years (some programs actually let you cut your clinical time down a few months if you want, but might hurt residency chances). Then it requires as much time as it takes you to do the PhD.

Is it harder?
See above.

Why should you take this track?
Because you can't give up the clinical aspect but want to do primarily basic science research.

The reason I ask this is because I enjoy research aspect as well and I would still like to do research as a doctor (if I become one). So I was considering the MD/PhD track.
What kind of research? Basic science? Clinical? What percent of your time in lab?

Can regular MDs still do research?
Sure. Example: Eric Kandel, MD. However, to get the money that you'll need to start a lab you need a strong publication record. This will require a lot of work as a post doc in a lab, and these jobs are hard to get these days without some pubs and good research experience. Check out a book on MD/PhDing and see if this is what you really want.
 
I think one of the questions was is hard to get into. The mcat/gpa necessary is usually a little higher. Now that I've been on MD only and MDPhD interviews, I have noticed that the caliber of students at the MDPhD interviews is MUCH higher. Not that the MD students aren't smart, dont' get me wrong.
 
to follow up the harder to get into... there are people (myself included) for whom getting in mdphd is easier than md only. what?! yeah, to a big extent there's a gap in the skills & personality required for research and clinical stuff. clearly for mdphd you need to have both, but if your skills & personality lean towards the research end, it MIGHT be easier for YOU to get into MDPhD than MD alone. That doesn't mean that it's easier in general. for example... mdphd programs might be more forgiving of your blowing off orgo ii for a senior thesis than md programs (when you spent all day and night in lab getting awesome results)... mdphd programs (straight from the mouth of a director) might not bother reading committe letters (if yours is so so because you never bothered with your premed dean) but instead care more about your advisors rec (if it's amazing, bam). for different people (and at different schools) either process may be easier/harder.
 
to follow up the harder to get into... there are people (myself included) for whom getting in mdphd is easier than md only. what?! yeah, to a big extent there's a gap in the skills & personality required for research and clinical stuff. clearly for mdphd you need to have both, but if your skills & personality lean towards the research end, it MIGHT be easier for YOU to get into MDPhD than MD alone. That doesn't mean that it's easier in general. for example... mdphd programs might be more forgiving of your blowing off orgo ii for a senior thesis than md programs (when you spent all day and night in lab getting awesome results)... mdphd programs (straight from the mouth of a director) might not bother reading committe letters (if yours is so so because you never bothered with your premed dean) but instead care more about your advisors rec (if it's amazing, bam). for different people (and at different schools) either process may be easier/harder.

You know, this is exactly what I have been wondering too. My GPA is pretty bad with a lot of upward trend, but not only do I have solid grades in physics and bio, but I am also great in research and might get several publications (including my own proposal) before schools is over. So I don't know. On one hand, MD/PhD is much harder to get than MD, but on another, the basic needs are so much more different. I'd imagine being very smart and motivated and heaving a very heavy science course load will mean more to MD/PhD than MD schools.

One question I have is about income. While free education is great, I have heard people say that the extra years at an MD PhD program take away so much from your future earnings that it actually costs more to do it. Since I am pressed in time (I am already 24 and likely won't apply until 1-2 years later), and since I am going into neurosurgery where the residency is 7+years, I am very conscious about time. I thought that MD/PhD would be worth it if at least it saves me a lot of money. So what do you guys think? Any of you in the same situation?
 
md/phd saves you money if you plan to go into academic medicine because you can pursue a full time research professorship w/o tons of debt. if you care about making money and plan to practice primarily clinically (like most neurosurgeons), md/phd is silly because it costs you time and money and you aren't really going to use the PhD much.

most attending neurosurgeons could pay off their medical debt with a year of work, esp if you take a non-academic job.
 
md/phd saves you money if you plan to go into academic medicine because you can pursue a full time research professorship w/o tons of debt. if you care about making money and plan to practice primarily clinically (like most neurosurgeons), md/phd is silly because it costs you time and money and you aren't really going to use the PhD much.

most attending neurosurgeons could pay off their medical debt with a year of work, esp if you take a non-academic job.


I guess my post sounded as if this is mainly about money, which is not the case. I probably have to do my own research into this.

And from what I have heard, it takes many years to pay off debt. A single year is a very optimistic outlook, even for neurosurgeons. Taxes and other bills reduce your income by a lot.
 
Just wondering why some of you guys said MD/PhD is for basic research. I think a PhD would be better suited for basic research. Some people spend something like 7-8 years purely doing a PhD and these people would be better trained than an MD/PhD.
 
That's not necessarily true. The average PhD is about 5.8 years (lets round that to 6). If a PhD is there for 8 years, then most likely, they weren't a star PhD student...

Here's the break down:

A PhD student has about one year of class and about a year and half of rotations. During the second year, they pick their thesis mentor and then they have some pretty big teaching responsibilities. In reality, a PhD student doesn't really get into their thesis until 2 years in so they really only have 4 solid years of thesis work.

For an MD/PhD:

In most programs, you've done your rotations and most of your coursework (department depending) by the time you're done with MS2 (sure you may have a few grad classes to catch up on but that may only be for a semester, some may need another rotation, but that's an individual's preference). So by the time you start your PhD portion in third year, you're pretty much ready to delve into your thesis work. At most programs, you have about 4 years at this point (3 if you're good).

So in the end, you're doing thesis work for the same amount of time as a regular PhD. It's true that the PhD student may have a semester or two on you, but MD/PhD students tend to be more focused and accomplished (with a very strong research background) than your average PhD student (as PI's have told me throughout the interview process).

Now there are true differences in the programs that give PhD students an edge. Phuds go right into their post-doc with no break from their thesis work so you could argue that they're better prepared to get into it. Also, PhDs are allowed much more leeway in their thesis work to try things out and really take on 'risk' projects. Risk projects take longer to do, but if they work they're normally more of a breakthrough than your average safe project. However, in many cases, these risk projects don't work out and the PhD student is put on a safe project in the end to graduate them.

MD/PhDs also have an advantage. They have first hand knowledge of the challenges and limitations of medicine. They can put a disease in perspective and have a better understanding of what needs to be done in the realm of basic research. Ultimately, an MD/PhD will ask different questions than a PhD and there's nothing inherently better or worse, they're just different and you have to decide what you think is right.

Not to mention that you can have clinical responsibilities on the side that can enhance your research (and salary). In fact, here at the NIH, there's a PI who's an MD/PhD and he doesn't have any clinical responsibilities. He gets paid WAY much more than his PhD counterparts for doing the exact same work. I'm not sure how it works in academia, but having the MD definitely makes you a more attractive hire, especially in academic medicine. Not to say the safety/money should be a goal, but it's an important thing to consider in a world where funding is getting tighter and tighter and there are more and more PhD's struggling to find positions. The MD will set you apart in any situation whether in academia or industry. A degree can take you a looong way.

There's something else that an MD/PhD can get you and that's what I like to call 'career insurance.' My boss is an MD who came to the states to do research for a year. If it didn't work out, it was no problem and he could just go back to his country and have a very successful career as a clinician. Since he had this 'insurance' on his career, he was able to take more risks than he probably would if his life depended solely on research. As I said before, the risk projects have a high chance of failure, but if they work, you're golden. So, he did a risk project, it worked out in the end and he's been an incredibly successful scientist his entire life. Now, I'm not naive and I know this could go both ways. Having this career insurance can make someone a bit lazier. Why bother really pushing myself in research when I could just go into the clinic? But this is something that has to be decided on a personal level.

So that's my big rant about the differences between a PhD and an MD/PhD, but really, I'm not going to pretend to know anything because I really can't know until I make my decision and I'm done with my training. I'm actually at the verge of choosing between an MD/PhD program and a PhD program and this was kind of a way to spell out my thinking process and how I'm going to make my decision.

As of now, I think I'd choose the MD/PhD path and I have an acceptance at a great school (and there could be more to come), but I also have PhD acceptances at some really great research institutes (Harvard, Berkeley, MIT (possibly)). Those are what I see as the pros and cons of both sides. In the end, I'm a researcher at heart so we'll see what happens (it also depends on where the significant other gets in).
 
That's not necessarily true. The average PhD is about 5.8 years (lets round that to 6). If a PhD is there for 8 years, then most likely, they weren't a star PhD student...

Here's the break down:

A PhD student has about one year of class and about a year and half of rotations. During the second year, they pick their thesis mentor and then they have some pretty big teaching responsibilities. In reality, a PhD student doesn't really get into their thesis until 2 years in so they really only have 4 solid years of thesis work.

For an MD/PhD:

In most programs, you've done your rotations and most of your coursework (department depending) by the time you're done with MS2 (sure you may have a few grad classes to catch up on but that may only be for a semester, some may need another rotation, but that's an individual's preference). So by the time you start your PhD portion in third year, you're pretty much ready to delve into your thesis work. At most programs, you have about 4 years at this point (3 if you're good).

So in the end, you're doing thesis work for the same amount of time as a regular PhD. It's true that the PhD student may have a semester or two on you, but MD/PhD students tend to be more focused and accomplished (with a very strong research background) than your average PhD student (as PI's have told me throughout the interview process).

Now there are true differences in the programs that give PhD students an edge. Phuds go right into their post-doc with no break from their thesis work so you could argue that they're better prepared to get into it. Also, PhDs are allowed much more leeway in their thesis work to try things out and really take on 'risk' projects. Risk projects take longer to do, but if they work they're normally more of a breakthrough than your average safe project. However, in many cases, these risk projects don't work out and the PhD student is put on a safe project in the end to graduate them.

MD/PhDs also have an advantage. They have first hand knowledge of the challenges and limitations of medicine. They can put a disease in perspective and have a better understanding of what needs to be done in the realm of basic research. Ultimately, an MD/PhD will ask different questions than a PhD and there's nothing inherently better or worse, they're just different and you have to decide what you think is right.

Not to mention that you can have clinical responsibilities on the side that can enhance your research (and salary). In fact, here at the NIH, there's a PI who's an MD/PhD and he doesn't have any clinical responsibilities. He gets paid WAY much more than his PhD counterparts for doing the exact same work. I'm not sure how it works in academia, but having the MD definitely makes you a more attractive hire, especially in academic medicine. Not to say the safety/money should be a goal, but it's an important thing to consider in a world where funding is getting tighter and tighter and there are more and more PhD's struggling to find positions. The MD will set you apart in any situation whether in academia or industry. A degree can take you a looong way.

There's something else that an MD/PhD can get you and that's what I like to call 'career insurance.' My boss is an MD who came to the states to do research for a year. If it didn't work out, it was no problem and he could just go back to his country and have a very successful career as a clinician. Since he had this 'insurance' on his career, he was able to take more risks than he probably would if his life depended solely on research. As I said before, the risk projects have a high chance of failure, but if they work, you're golden. So, he did a risk project, it worked out in the end and he's been an incredibly successful scientist his entire life. Now, I'm not naive and I know this could go both ways. Having this career insurance can make someone a bit lazier. Why bother really pushing myself in research when I could just go into the clinic? But this is something that has to be decided on a personal level.

So that's my big rant about the differences between a PhD and an MD/PhD, but really, I'm not going to pretend to know anything because I really can't know until I make my decision and I'm done with my training. I'm actually at the verge of choosing between an MD/PhD program and a PhD program and this was kind of a way to spell out my thinking process and how I'm going to make my decision.

As of now, I think I'd choose the MD/PhD path and I have an acceptance at a great school (and there could be more to come), but I also have PhD acceptances at some really great research institutes (Harvard, Berkeley, MIT (possibly)). Those are what I see as the pros and cons of both sides. In the end, I'm a researcher at heart so we'll see what happens (it also depends on where the significant other gets in).
It would be nice to know the difference between MD and MD/PhD as well.
 
yeah...keep believin' that 🙂

Just wondering why some of you guys said MD/PhD is for basic research. I think a PhD would be better suited for basic research. Some people spend something like 7-8 years purely doing a PhD and these people would be better trained than an MD/PhD.
 
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