question about med practice in canada...plz help

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Luwai Odeh

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ok, so i m a med student in romania, europe. i m attending the 5th year out of 6 years the complete program....
my univesity is on the FAIMER list. i want to practice medicine in canada, so i've been reading about this on the official websites. i m a permanent resident in canada so i m able to practice here.
what i read and understood is that i have to take the MCEE in the last year of studies and than apply to CARMS so i can enroll in ontario for residency....
my question is: is this right, this is all i have to do, or there is more?

if someone could help me, advice me, or just tell me what i have to do, i ll really appreciate it!

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Luwai someone needs to be honest with you before you waste your time and money in the unlikely attempt to practice medicine in Canada. Apply to the US. DO NOT waste your time and money applying in Canada.
Here are the facts: There are about 500-600 wealthy Canadian citizens attending medical schools in Australia, UK, Ireland, Europe and US who have family connections to medicine in Canada born in Canada who every year graduate from these medical schools and try and compete for the handful of internships left over that the 2600 Canadian Medical school students don't want. They write the MCCEE and MCCQE 1 before even applying.
Put your efforts into going to the US as guaranteed you will waste about $6000 and 5 years if your life trying to go to Canada. By the way being a PR of Canada means nothing as just about anyone can get PR in Canada. You should be a Canadian citizen and have contributed years and taxes to be a physician there.
 
my question is: is this right, this is all i have to do, or there is more?

if someone could help me, advice me, or just tell me what i have to do, i ll really appreciate it!

To apply for a Canadian residency, there are a series of general criteria and provincial criteria to meet.

As you already know, you need to be a Canadian citizen/PR graduating from a FAIMER school. You need to have your MCCEE passed and written the year prior - for example, if you wanted to participate in the 2010 match you'd need to write (and pass) the MCCEE in 2009. TOEFL is also required by many schools (see provincial criteria). Also, if you can pass the LMCC part I before you apply and interview, this is a plus (though not necessary).

The essential thing for landing a residency in Canada is to:

1) have done rotations at the program you'd like to match to

2) have letters of reference from Canadian programs

If they've never met you, they probably won't pick you - but if you did an elective, and they know you and like you, you're much further ahead. It goes without saying that you really need to do well in these rotations (e.g. great command of the English language both spoken & written, and good rapport with patients and staff, uncomplaining hard worker, etc. etc.), but if you can do well, you will be remembered when it comes time to rank applicants. Good letters of reference from Canadian programs where you did electives are also very helpful.

IMGs compete in a separate stream (see the right hand column*) than Canadian grads in the first round of the CaRMS match. There are approximately 2400 Canadian grads (competing for 2600 spots) and, in 2009, there were 1387 IMGs competing for 236 positions (ultimately 294 IMGs matched, including the handful that got spots in the second round).

So you can see that the odds aren't great for IMGs trying to match to a Canadian residency. Only a small porportion of IMGs get residency (about 21%). You would be wise to:

1) Apply widely. If you are thinking internal medicine, also apply for family medicine (assuming you would be happy doing family medicine). Be aware that switching is difficult (maybe very difficult) and so whatever you are matched to you are contractually stuck with. So DON'T RANK ANYTHING YOU DON'T WANT.

2) Apply in the US. Although the enormous surplus of US training spots is apparently decreasing over time, your odds of matching in the US are far better than your odds of matching in Canada. You can apply to both - if you match in CaRMS (which happens first) you are withdrawn from the US match; if you don't match in CaRMS, you can go on to try and match in the US. Be advised, though, that once you train in the US, returning to Canada can be difficult (ask Monterey for the details).

One more important fact: the CaRMS IMG residency positions come with ROS (return-in-service contracts) attached to them. Most provinces give details about their ROS under provincial criteria.

*It's still early days - the programs haven't all entered their data in this form yet.
 
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Wow, alot of doom and gloom. A few more options:

1) Fund your own residency, avoids the ROS, or even needing to compete for the position.

2)Stay in Romania, apply for PR, and keep applying to CaRMS.

Whats the appeal of coming to Canada?
 
1) Fund your own residency

How do you arrange this in the US?

(I'm curious because it's strictly forbidden for an individual to buy a residency in Canada, even if you had the $500,000 to do it)
 
How do you arrange this in the US?

(I'm curious because it's strictly forbidden for an individual to buy a residency in Canada, even if you had the $500,000 to do it)

actually it happens with some frequency in Canada. Im not sure exactly how to go about arranging it, probably go to the department head and offer $$ in exchange for training.
 
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ok, before you call me a troll, let me clarify;
the ministry of health funds the vast majority of training positions, and they can't be bought. There are other positions however which are funded by other means, although many of these are fellowships. The cost for training is probably about 500k for specialties. As such most people dont have that kind of cash, so its usually foriegn governments that fund those positions. There actually was an article in the CMAJ about it a while back.
 
ok, before you call me a troll, let me clarify;
the ministry of health funds the vast majority of training positions, and they can't be bought. There are other positions however which are funded by other means, although many of these are fellowships.

Agreed, the vast majority of training positions are ministry funded and filled through CaRMS.

But there are essentially ZERO other R1 residency positions offered in Canada (with the exception of foreign trainee positions which are characterized by the trainee being obliged to sign a ROS with their funding government & leave Canada upon completion of their residency - see below).

so its usually foriegn governments that fund those positions. There actually was an article in the CMAJ about it a while back.

Only foreign governments are permitted to fund R1 residency positions for their citizens, and in general only wealthy countries (Gulf States) have the available cash to do so. An individual, even with hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, would not be permitted to buy themselves a spot.

The OP (and any other IMG) is going to have to choose between a CaRMS spot (most likely with a ROS contract attached) or US residency (with the possibility of not being able to come back).
 
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Gentlemen i need some help concerning the MCCEE , Best books to study from and advice on how to study for it kz im really really lost , Im doin my internship at the moment so im hopin i can finish the MCCEE by the time i finish my internship
Appreciate all the help i can get
Thanx
 
ok, before you call me a troll, let me clarify;
the ministry of health funds the vast majority of training positions, and they can't be bought. There are other positions however which are funded by other means, although many of these are fellowships. The cost for training is probably about 500k for specialties. As such most people dont have that kind of cash, so its usually foriegn governments that fund those positions. There actually was an article in the CMAJ about it a while back.

Technically one can buy their residency. What it entails is accepting an ROS contract and then buying out of it. All contracts legally require a way out of them; for the ROS it is paying the cost of the residency plus interest, which adds up to about 300-400k.
 
Technically one can buy their residency. What it entails is accepting an ROS contract and then buying out of it. All contracts legally require a way out of them; for the ROS it is paying the cost of the residency plus interest, which adds up to about 300-400k.

True enough, but the problem remains that it's very difficult to get offered any of those residency positions in the first place.
 
What else can a IMG work in Canada.? Is there eny nice jobs for IMG
 
hey does anyone know if this pathway 4 by ontario is legit for imgs who did their residency/fellowship in the US? it says you need to work under a supervisor and mentor and also youll be licensed according to demand. So i mean if youre an internist theyll license you but if you do cardiology or some other surgical specialty youll have a much harder time?
 
hey does anyone know if this pathway 4 by ontario is legit for imgs who did their residency/fellowship in the US? it says you need to work under a supervisor and mentor and also youll be licensed according to demand. So i mean if youre an internist theyll license you but if you do cardiology or some other surgical specialty youll have a much harder time?

Basically, yes.

You can check whether your specialty is in demand in Ontario at https://www.hfojobs.ca/UI/Professional/Physician/index.aspx

I don't know anything about how you find a supervisor/mentor or what is the nature of the assessment after the one year probationary period, but presumably the Health Force Ontario people could answer questions.

I've never met anyone who was licensed through the fourth pathway (it's still a relatively new process), so if you manage it, post your experiences!
 
Yes indeed, if anyone has experience with the new pathway or knows of any success story please speak up. This new pathway to licensure in Ontario is very appealing to us Canadian IMGs as there is more flexibility in securing a residency of choice in the US.

My question is that many specialists practice in their own offices without hospital duties so for example, if you are a certified cardiologist in the US could you apply and open your own practice in Ontario seeing patients or do you have to serve the communities where a cardiologist is in demand?
 
My impression is that the fourth pathway is being used by the Ontario government as a way to fill hard-to-fill positions. So you couldn't start your own practice - you have a probationary period during which you must be supervised (unless, presumably, you joined an existing practice, and one of the partners was willing to supervise you), and there is a formal assessment at the end of the period.

But we're all just guessing at this point - call the CPSO up and ask.
 
Im going to send this question off to healthforce ontario, and cpso but say after and internal residency as an IMG are you able to apply for a fellowship before starting your return of service?
 
It would be up to the community/health region that sponsored you whether they would let you postpone your ROS.

You could ask, but there wouldn't be any guarantees.
 
Ive read through the Ontario RoS and they have nothing specified but I mean the point of the return of service is to get doctors out in underserviced areas so if anyone has any ideas let me know if you can pursue a cardiology fellowship after doing an internal residency before starting your RoS in an underserviced area...
 
It is pretty tough getting into the system in Canada but not impossible. One needs evaluating exam, qualifying exam. You cannot write the qualifying exam again if you pass so make sure you are ready to get a good score. After that the OSCE for Ontario. Very very competittive and can be unfair quite often. For the OSCE you needs a good score but also luck . Some people with lower OSCE scores have been chosen compared to one,s with higher scores. Very dissapointing for them as one is back to the same boat again after one year. The other option is via CARMS but that too very competitive . They tend to give preference for Canadians who did college , high school in canada and went to another country to study Medicine. It is quite obvious. The US is more fair when it comes to foreign grads.
 
hey does anyone know if this pathway 4 by ontario is legit for imgs who did their residency/fellowship in the US? it says you need to work under a supervisor and mentor and also youll be licensed according to demand. So i mean if youre an internist theyll license you but if you do cardiology or some other surgical specialty youll have a much harder time?

One caveat to an internist coming here is that you have to have done a chief yr in the US to get your training to equate the 4 yr GIM training in Canada. Whereas if you do a subspecialty, your 1st yr of subspecialty counts as your 4th yr of residency.
 
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