Question about MGMA Data

[NY172]

I know this has been discussed previously but I read conflicting info. The comp figure listed for pain management in MGMA, does this refer to base only or base plus wRVU productivity above the base/performance incentives?

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[cowboydoc]

I know this has been discussed previously but I read conflicting info. The comp figure listed for pain management in MGMA, does this refer to base only or base plus wRVU productivity above the base/performance incentives?

Total compensation.

 

[PainApp2021]

Total compensation.

Add on question for those of us who haven't been in the attending work force yet. Does a monetary value for healthcare benefits count toward total compensation?

 

[buddababa]

Add on question for those of us who haven't been in the attending work force yet. Does a monetary value for healthcare benefits count toward total compensation?

yes

 

[drusso]

Add on question for those of us who haven't been in the attending work force yet. Does a monetary value for healthcare benefits count toward total compensation?

...But, the SOS fees don't.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

...But, the SOS fees don't.

 

[cowboydoc]

Add on question for those of us who haven't been in the attending work force yet. Does a monetary value for healthcare benefits count toward total compensation?

“Yes,” but there is variability on how this is calculated and reported to MGMA, so there may added variability to the reported #s.

 

[drusso]

Why would they follow Physician Enterprise Value as a Key Performance Metric if they didn't account for it in your Pro-forma and ROI?

All doctors should have some skin in the game for these conversations.

Maintaining the equilibrium of the physician enterprise amid rapid change is a matter of balance

To ensure the proper functioning of the physician enterprise, hospitals and health systems must establish a balance among three dimensions: The clinicians’ productivity, the capacity to provide patients with access to care when they need it, and he volume of existing and potential patients in...

www.hfma.org

 

[drusso]

“Yes,” but there is variability on how this is calculated and reported to MGMA, so there may added variability to the reported #s.

More fundamentally, the MGMA data only reflects the piece of the pie that they *WANT* to bargain over. It doesn't reflect where the real meat and margin is in the game. The goal is to move them off their terms and conditions and get them talking about the whole Big Picture, not just the scraps they want to haggle about...

 

[SSdoc33]

More fundamentally, the MGMA data only reflects the piece of the pie that they *WANT* to bargain over. It doesn't reflect where the real meat and margin is in the game. The goal is to move them off their terms and conditions and get them talking about the whole Big Picture, not just the scraps they want to haggle about...

This is pretty awful advice, as drusso has his own agenda.

To the OP: The MGMA data refers to total compensation, which may include benefits depending who you are talking to

 

[drusso]

This is pretty awful advice, as drusso has his own agenda.

To the OP: The MGMA data refers to total compensation, which may include benefits depending who you are talking to

When you buy a car, do you just bargain over the MSRP? Or, do you get info about the dealer cost, financing, rebates, etc? Why do you do these things? Because you don't want to get ripped off.

Ditto for doctor jobs.

If you *KNOW* that pain doc produces $7M in revenue to the hospital, why are you only haggling over 5% of the pie?

 

[Ducttape]

have you bought a car in the past year?

there is no arguing over anything. so much demand and no supply. beat up 10+ year old vehicles with 100,000+ miles going used for $11k. average new car price now is almost $40K, and last year it was $37K

 

[SSdoc33]

have you bought a car in the past year?

there is no arguing over anything. so much demand and no supply. beat up 10+ year old vehicles with 100,000+ miles going used for $11k. average new car price now is almost $40K, and last year it was $37K

i think you missed the point

 

[SSdoc33]

When you buy a car, do you just bargain over the MSRP? Or, do you get info about the dealer cost, financing, rebates, etc? Why do you do these things? Because you don't want to get ripped off.

Ditto for doctor jobs.

If you *KNOW* that pain doc produces $7M in revenue to the hospital, why are you only haggling over 5% of the pie?

your agenda is to recommend everyone go PP.

if you bring up physician enterprise value, you will either not get the job or get lower than if you try to meet the admins in the middle.

your advice in this arena is clouded by a vendetta, and those listening to you about this would be better off not doing so

 

[lobelsteve]

your agenda is to recommend everyone go PP.

if you bring up physician enterprise value, you will either not get the job or get lower than if you try to meet the admins in the middle.

your advice in this arena is clouded by a vendetta, and those listening to you about this would be better off not doing so

Discussed PEV yesterday with Sr executive staff for my health system yesterday after work. It's called political capitol.
Patient care comes first.

 

[drusso]

your agenda is to recommend everyone go PP.

if you bring up physician enterprise value, you will either not get the job or get lower than if you try to meet the admins in the middle.

your advice in this arena is clouded by a vendetta, and those listening to you about this would be better off not doing so

You're a terrible negotiator. Remember, hospital admins, learn how to bargain with doctors the same way doctors learn to calculate an ion gap. If you commit to the MGMA as the Torah for how to get paid you've already made a HUGE concession from the get-go.

Any doctor's BATNA is to just walk away. Instead, "expand the conversation" about how you will get paid by realizing that they can literally pay you anything they want...You do that by talking about PEV and never stop talking about it. Watch how the mood in the room changes when you start talking about PEV, ancillary revenues, downstream multiplier effects, etc.

 

[NJPAIN]

Add on question for those of us who haven't been in the attending work force yet. Does a monetary value for healthcare benefits count toward total compensation?

A very knowledgeable healthcare attorney told me that total compensation is what would appear on year end w2.

 

[SSdoc33]

You're a terrible negotiator. Remember, hospital admins, learn how to bargain with doctors the same way doctors learn to calculate an ion gap. If you commit to the MGMA as the Torah for how to get paid you've already made a HUGE concession from the get-go.

Any doctor's BATNA is to just walk away. Instead, "expand the conversation" about how you will get paid by realizing that they can literally pay you anything they want...You do that by talking about PEV and never stop talking about it. Watch how the mood in the room changes when you start talking about PEV, ancillary revenues, downstream multiplier effects, etc.

im not trying to sell anybody short here. MGMA values are pretty lucractive. if you can get the upper end, that is nothing to sneeze at

in most hospitals, if you try to get $ off of physician enterprise value or facility fees, they will tell you to get lost. and maybe that is your goal here.

lobelsteve is a different animal

 

[drusso]

im not trying to sell anybody short here. MGMA values are pretty lucractive. if you can get the upper end, that is nothing to sneeze at

in most hospitals, if you try to get $ off of physician enterprise value or facility fees, they will tell you to get lost. and maybe that is your goal here.

lobelsteve is a different animal

@lobelsteve is not that special. He's just Awake to the reality. He's unplugged himself from the distributive bargaining paradigm that treats physicians like commoditized widgets. Anyone can Wake up. Just open your eyes.

 

[SSdoc33]

@lobelsteve is not that special. He's just Awake to the reality. He's unplugged himself from the distributive bargaining paradigm that treats physicians like commoditized widgets. Anyone can Wake up. Just open your eyes.

?

he works for a group. he's clearly a widget

the point is that he has been there for years and has more bargaining power than a new doc just starting out

 

[gaspasser127]

why would hospital admins/execs get upset about physician enterprise value?

 

[DOctorJay]

Discussed PEV yesterday with Sr executive staff for my health system yesterday after work. It's called political capitol.
Patient care comes first.

did he/she give you a raise based on your PEV?

 

[Ronin1]

From the conversations on this forum it seems that many hospitals employed docs are doing financially better than PP ones…..

 

[ateria radicularis magna]

From the conversations on this forum it seems that many hospitals employed docs are doing financially better than PP ones…..

That is for sure ! Many program directors strongly recommend graduating fellows get a hospital job.

 

[SSdoc33]

careful. drusso's head is about to explode

 

[lobelsteve]

did he/she give you a raise based on your PEV?

Not at liberty to discuss. But made me. 😁

 

[wendalltwolf]

why would hospital admins/execs get upset about physician enterprise value?

they’d be conceding money that would have gone to their year end bonus

 

[RoloTomassi]

These negotiation tactics are good, but you also have to realize that if it's a desirable position, there are plenty of other applicants who want the job and won't be negotiating as hard as you, and unless you are really good at selling yourself, they'll take another warm body over you.

 

[drusso]

careful. drusso's head is about to explode

If you're just in it for the money, hospital-employed HOPD doctor is the way to go.

 

[lobelsteve]

If you're just in it for the money, hospital-employed HOPD doctor is the way to go.

I'm in it for the drama.
When do we start our TV show.

 

[Nodolor]

If you're just in it for the money, hospital-employed HOPD doctor is the way to go.

If I was a new fellow and read your post about PP being a 5AM to 9PM gig....that would steer me towards a hospital job

 

[drusso]

If I was a new fellow and read your post about PP being a 5AM to 9PM gig....that would steer me towards a hospital job

It's true...

 

[nvrsumr]

Its pretty crazy how the worm has turned on PP vs Hospital employed in just 10 or so years. Glad to be my own boss but gets to be less and less of an advantage every year. The SOS scam will never change so I am not hopeful for new grads that the future will be better in PP.

 

[DOctorJay]

Its pretty crazy how the worm has turned on PP vs Hospital employed in just 10 or so years. Glad to be my own boss but gets to be less and less of an advantage every year. The SOS scam will never change so I am not hopeful for new grads that the future will be better in PP.

the key is to be employed directly by the hospital, NOT a physician group run by the hospital. the physician group doesn't "see" the facility fees. only the hospital gets that juice.

 

[cowboydoc]

the key is to be employed directly by the hospital, NOT a physician group run by the hospital. the physician group doesn't "see" the facility fees. only the hospital gets that juice.

Think of it as hazard pay for wading through the layers of BS bureaucracy.

 

[FF430]

noob question...whats PEV?

 

[Propofool123]

noob question...whats PEV?

A new formula to track the ROI of your employed physicians

When thinking about the financial performance of the employed physician enterprise for your health system, is your first instinct to focus on the operating loss of the medical group as a standalone business? While this is certainly an important part of the equation, it's by no means the whole

www.beckershospitalreview.com

 

[mid|ine]

PP doesm't have to be 5-9.
I work with a PP group, work 8-4 and make more than when I was hospital employed

 

[Propofool123]

Anyone have AMGA data?

 

[drusso]

PP doesm't have to be 5-9.
I work with a PP group, work 8-4 and make more than when I was hospital employed

How do you do it?

 

[Nodolor]

PP doesm't have to be 5-9.
I work with a PP group, work 8-4 and make more than when I was hospital employed

I know I have been in PP for over 10yrs...generally work about 30 to 35 hrs/week