Question about Money

[GoofyPaw]

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TLDR; wanting a decent salary as a doctor doesn't mean wanting a Ferrari and a Malibu Mansion. Maybe I just want a decent living for my wife and kids.

Many posters on SDN have strong opinions on money as a motivator to becoming a doctor. For me personally, it's definitely a big priority. I've worked the most soul crushing, pointless job known to man. Yes, I was an accountant. So even though I care about a decent salary, I also see the point of having a career with a purpose. After working on the opposite end of the purpose spectrum, I saw the light. Working with people sounds amazing, even if it means dealing with hard patients every so often, because I know having the pleasant interactions will make the difficult ones worth it. I don't see it as a bad thing, but many people see valuing a decent salary as a negative. I want to provide for my wife and kids. I think I'd like to have at least two, maybe three kids, because I was a only child growing up. Eh, probably two. I want to pay for their college educations, or even high school educations. I worry about retirement, because I don't want to have to rely on my children to take care of me during my golden years. I don't need a nice car and a huge mansion, but I do want a car to drive and a house for my family and dog. Yeah, I want to travel and eat good food every once in a while. Yeah, I want to take pictures of that food and post it on Instagram too. Maybe buy a Playstation X for my kid (or myself). And buy a iphone XXX. Oh, and I'd like to have time for my family and hobbies.

Medicine is a great career because you help people during their times of need. You literally spend most of your waking life helping people. Becoming a doctor takes tremendous sacrifice, and I think its perfectly fine to wanting to be fairly compensated for one's efforts. Rock stars, athletes, movies stars, writers, politicians, and bankers are highly compensated, why can't doctors demand as such? I don't expect Lebron James money, but I think you get the point. Doctors are rock stars of the world too, but for some reason they're expected to put the patient before everything else. While all pursuits in life should be driven by purpose, I do believe that one's efforts should be fairly recognized, even if that means being paid a decent salary.

If salaries of doctors must suffer, then something has to give. Medical school tuition should be lower or residency salaries increased, or better yet, residency hours lowered. I'd imagine that residency would seem like a dream if you only had to work 60 hours a week. Maybe make residencies half a year or year longer. 80 hour work weeks year round can destroy people. I worked as an accountant before, and putting in 60 to 70 hour weeks during tax season was brutal (3 months straight). I can't imagine working those hours for four years straight. I don't blame residents for hating life.

I really want to study medicine, but I'm scared that I'll turn bitter and jaded by the end of the process. The administrative/office related complaints don't scare me too much, because I worked in the corporate setting already. I'm scared that a long and brutal journey will transform me into something I'd hate. Like so many people on this forum, they didn't expect it to happen to them, but it did. The culprit could be feeling underappreciated and overworked for many. Doctors are just humans, but for some odd reason they're held to a higher standard than all professions in society. In the grand scheme of things, each role in society has a purpose. Doctors compared to janitors is like a lion compared to an ant. In the end, we're all just trying to survive on this blue and green rock. While surviving, I'd like to enjoy the one life I have, even if that means valuing time outside of medicine. If having a career as a doctor means sacrificing all other aspects of my life, including relationships, maybe the noble cause isn't worth it for me. There are two important things in one's life, close personal relationships and one's career. If I have to sacrifice my family for my career, count me out. To everyone else, you're awesome.

I'm currently on the fence about going to medical school, so I've been scouring these forums for a while. It really irritates me when I see posters turn into sinless saints whenever money is brought up. Just venting.

 

[LavarBall]

Nice

 

[•Syzygy•]

you can be anything you want to be on an anonymous internet forum, including a "sinless saint". try not to get so worked up by the opinions of people here. it is obvious that what attracts a ton of people to the profession is job security and money, but that shouldnt be the only thing (which you have said is not, for you).

 

[Planes2Doc]

Whatever reasons that makes people want to be physicians is between them and any higher power they may believe in. As long as you come in each day and do the best possible work by putting your patient’s interest first, your reasons for pursuing medicine are irrelevant.

For some reason, physicians are always vilified for wanting to make money. Apparently, a physician should take only $150,000 if they have a $300,000 so they can “help the greater good” or some bull crap like that. If a lawyer, engineer, or business person were told to do this, they would laugh their butts off at you all the way to the bank.

I’m a first generation American whose parents came here with absolutely nothing. I worked hard to be where I’m at, and I’ll do whatever I damn well please with my money.

 

[GoofyPaw]

you can be anything you want to be on an anonymous internet forum, including a "sinless saint". try not to get so worked up by the opinions of people here. it is obvious that what attracts a ton of people to the profession is job security and money, but that shouldnt be the only thing (which you have said is not, for you).

I know I shouldn't get worked up, but it's just annoying when I see that on these forums. And IF I ever matriculate into medical school, I'll cross paths with those types of people. I just hope people who held those types of opinions on money read this post.

 

[GoofyPaw]

Pre-meds shouldn't be scared to asked about salaries or work-life/balance on SDN. God forbid if you do, certain posters will place a large Scarlet S on your chest.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Pre-meds shouldn't be scared to asked about salaries or work-life/balance on SDN. God forbid if you do, certain posters will place a large Scarlet S on your chest.

It's not just pre-meds. It's every other aspect of life. If people have an objective statement on their resume, they make it seem like their life's purpose to optimize the supply chain efficiency of hot dog buns sale. It's never to make a salary so you can live your life. During college, I aspired to get into investment banking. Now imagine how awkward it gets with interviews when you're at a financial company but need to tip toe around the topic of money. You gotta come up with really weird reasons for why you want to do a certain job. When you start searching the internet for reasons why you want to do something, it means something is wrong. Not with you, but just society around you.

Anyway, my Goldman Sachs interview got awkward. Then I apparently committed one of the worst offenses in Merrill Lynch's corporate history by starting an email with "Hey" when I was trying to get a junior year internship. Go figure.

 

[TehTeddy]

Totally agree about the false dichotomy of motivations. Seems like an artifical construction which doesn't reflect the plurality of reasons people have for choosing medicine (or any career).

~El psy kongroo

 

[GoofyPaw]

It's not just pre-meds. It's every other aspect of life. If people have an objective statement on their resume, they make it seem like their life's purpose to optimize the supply chain efficiency of hot dog buns sale. It's never to make a salary so you can live your life. During college, I aspired to get into investment banking. Now imagine how awkward it gets with interviews when you're at a financial company but need to tip toe around the topic of money. You gotta come up with really weird reasons for why you want to do a certain job. When you start searching the internet for reasons why you want to do something, it means something is wrong. Not with you, but just society around you.

Anyway, my Goldman Sachs interview got awkward. Then I apparently committed one of the worst offenses in Merrill Lynch's corporate history by starting an email with "Hey" when I was trying to get a junior year internship. Go figure.

Yeah same here. When I interviewed at accounting firms, interviewers always asked, "So, why did you choose accounting?" I never sugar coated the answer, I just told them, because its stable and my friends told me to. Of course I reworded my answer appropriately.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Yeah same here. When I interviewed at accounting firms, interviewers always asked, "So, why did you choose accounting?" I never sugar coated the answer, I just told them, because its stable and my friends told me to. Of course I reworded my answer appropriately.

Have you ever read Liar's Poker? The chapter about the initial investment banking interview is absolute gold.

 

[Mad Jack]

Do well for yourself while doing well for others.

 

[GoofyPaw]

Have you ever read Liar's Poker? The chapter about the initial investment banking interview is absolute gold.

No, but I've heard of it.

So you switched from banking to doctor? How long did you do finance?

 

[CloverBale]

Why does it have to be a dichotomy? What's wrong with wanting to help people and making bank.

 

[workaholic181]

There's a lot of great stuff on SDN, it sure has helped me get where I am in this field. But I agree with you OP there's some ridiculousness also. I hope that you can find some guidance on here while you decide what you want to do. Kinda sounds to me like medicine would fit you well. Good luck either way.

 

[calivianya]

I already work in healthcare and already help people for a living. If all I wanted was helping people, I'd stay put.

However, there are two things I really want even more than helping people: 1. to be able to go with my conscience when helping people, not just following someone else's idea of what they think is right, and 2. more money. There, I said it. I absolutely want more money.

 

[GoofyPaw]

I already work in healthcare and already help people for a living. If all I wanted was helping people, I'd stay put.

However, there are two things I really want even more than helping people: 1. to be able to go with my conscience when helping people, not just following someone else's idea of what they think is right, and 2. more money. There, I said it. I absolutely want more money.

Damn straight

 

[Planes2Doc]

No, but I've heard of it.

So you switched from banking to doctor? How long did you do finance?

I ended up in revenue management with the airlines, where I spent two years.

Graduating in 2008 did not go well for finding banking positions. I was definitely gunning for them though in college. Nonetheless, the book is a great read, especially with the Lehman Brothers interview chapter.

 

[Goro]

I know I shouldn't get worked up, but it's just annoying when I see that on these forums. And IF I ever matriculate into medical school, I'll cross paths with those types of people. I just hope people who held those types of opinions on money read this post.

Wanting to make bank is the baseline for every pre-med. But if it's the sole motivation, one will be absolutely miserable in med school, and beyond.

 

[GoofyPaw]

I ended up in revenue management with the airlines, where I spent two years.

Graduating in 2008 did not go well for finding banking positions. I was definitely gunning for them though in college. Nonetheless, the book is a great read, especially with the Lehman Brothers interview chapter.

Lol seriously. Talk about bad timing. Oh well, you're a doctor now. Everything happens for a reason.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Anyone considering an education path that requires taking on $200k-$300k+ of debt needs to at least consider how that debt will be repaid...and that means knowing the approx future salary. Being purely noble won't get the debt paid back.

 

[Tenk]

Me and my buddy every shift:

 

[Kisangani]

Most people go into medicine primarily for the money. Yeah, many regurgitate the cringe worthy "I want to help people" ad nauseum throughout their training (especially the pre-med phase) but I can assure you they too are motivated primarily by the salary. No sane person would go through so many years of training and debt just for the benefit of society. That being said, I am a bit confused by the point of this thread. Is it to criticize how people choose to spend their hard-earned cash? If a physician (or anyone else for that matter) decides to blow their entire salary gambling, at strip clubs, on expensive cars, or on anything else that is their right. I don't think anyone should be able to tell them otherwise. Regarding your last paragraph, if relationships are a high priority in your life, then this career will be challenging for you. Your relationships will undoubtably suffer throughout your training and it will be difficult to maintain a social life and spend time with family especially during medical school.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

There is nothing wrong with making money. We sacrifice a great deal of our health and personal time to get to where we are, so enjoying the fruits of our labor is absolutely fine. As long as money isn't the sole motivator (though it can be a primary one), to each their own.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm currently on the fence about going to medical school, so I've been scouring these forums for a while.

You probably shouldn't do it. Medical school adcoms are imperfect, to say the least, but we do search for applicants who appear to have high intrinsic motivations to enter the profession, rather than extrinsic (money, prestige, etc.) motivations. It's not about being holier than anyone else, it's about the fact that when things get bad (as they inevitably do), people with intrinsic motivation tend to be more resilient and happier in the long run. That doesn't mean they can't or don't enjoy the monetary fruits of their labor, but when it's hour 79 and you're getting urinated on, defecated on, vomited on, and yelled at while someone literally dies in front of you, "a decent living for my wife and kids" might not cut it. And don't even get me started on the paperwork...

 

[thetraveler1993]

You probably shouldn't do it. Medical school adcoms are imperfect, to say the least, but we do search for applicants who appear to have high intrinsic motivations to enter the profession, rather than extrinsic (money, prestige, etc.) motivations. It's not about being holier than anyone else, it's about the fact that when things get bad (as they inevitably do), people with intrinsic motivation tend to be more resilient and happier in the long run. That doesn't mean they can't or don't enjoy the monetary fruits of their labor, but when it's hour 79 and you're getting urinated on, defecated on, vomited on, and yelled at while someone literally dies in front of you, "a decent living for my wife and kids" might not cut it. And don't even get me started on the paperwork...

when you come from a place of poverty, that stuff you mentioned is childs play. The reality of the situation in my opinion is that sure, being a doctor isnt always as glamorous as it is made out to be but when you've seen how bad some jobs can get. When youve experienced a life of someone working 80+ hours and still can barely afford to move out of hell, then tbh putting up with angry patients, vomit and poo for a future of a 6 figure salary can be motivation enough.

I'll say it again , i dont judge people for pursuing medicine for the money. The alternative paths in life could be significantly worse.

 

[Med Ed]

when you come from a place of poverty, that stuff you mentioned is childs play. The reality of the situation in my opinion is that sure, being a doctor isnt always as glamorous as it is made out to be but when you've seen how bad some jobs can get. When youve experienced a life of someone working 80+ hours and still can barely afford to move out of hell, then tbh putting up with angry patients, vomit and poo for a future of a 6 figure salary can be motivation enough.

I'll say it again , i dont judge people for pursuing medicine for the money. The alternative paths in life could be significantly worse.

I think you have somewhat missed my point. I have done a lot of hiring over the years, and one of the key questions in evaluating an applicant (for any position) is whether the individual is running towards our job or running away from their current one. We have much better luck with the former than the latter.

Being a physician certainly isn't the hardest job in the world, no matter how you define difficulty. But it does carry a unique profile of debt, delayed gratification, hours worked, subject matter, and compensation (both monetary and psychic). It's also a fairly easy thing to romanticize, especially when we're young and tend to overvalue future income and undervalue future time and autonomy. Unfortunately, it is well recognized the going to medical school is like stepping into quicksand: the debt quickly becomes a trap only escapable through obtaining a six figure salary.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me, or even believe me, I'm just giving you my perspective from this side of the looking glass.

 

[663697]

Whatever reasons that makes people want to be physicians is between them and any higher power they may believe in. As long as you come in each day and do the best possible work by putting your patient’s interest first, your reasons for pursuing medicine are irrelevant.

For some reason, physicians are always vilified for wanting to make money. Apparently, a physician should take only $150,000 if they have a $300,000 so they can “help the greater good” or some bull crap like that. If a lawyer, engineer, or business person were told to do this, they would laugh their butts off at you all the way to the bank.

I’m a first generation American whose parents came here with absolutely nothing. I worked hard to be where I’m at, and I’ll do whatever I damn well please with my money.

100%. I was talking to a group of engineering students the other day about a free tutoring service for low-income students and they just laughed it off as a joke.

 

[thetraveler1993]

I think you have somewhat missed my point. I have done a lot of hiring over the years, and one of the key questions in evaluating an applicant (for any position) is whether the individual is running towards our job or running away from their current one. We have much better luck with the former than the latter.

Being a physician certainly isn't the hardest job in the world, no matter how you define difficulty. But it does carry a unique profile of debt, delayed gratification, hours worked, subject matter, and compensation (both monetary and psychic). It's also a fairly easy thing to romanticize, especially when we're young and tend to overvalue future income and undervalue future time and autonomy. Unfortunately, it is well recognized the going to medical school is like stepping into quicksand: the debt quickly becomes a trap only escapable through obtaining a six figure salary.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me, or even believe me, I'm just giving you my perspective from this side of the looking glass.

oh no, i value all view points and I do understand your point of view. 🙂

one valuable thing I've learned through the years is that we are all products of our environment and therefore have different interpretations of things. To me, that's okay.

 

[Goro]

I think you have somewhat missed my point. I have done a lot of hiring over the years, and one of the key questions in evaluating an applicant (for any position) is whether the individual is running towards our job or running away from their current one. We have much better luck with the former than the latter.

Being a physician certainly isn't the hardest job in the world, no matter how you define difficulty. But it does carry a unique profile of debt, delayed gratification, hours worked, subject matter, and compensation (both monetary and psychic). It's also a fairly easy thing to romanticize, especially when we're young and tend to overvalue future income and undervalue future time and autonomy. Unfortunately, it is well recognized the going to medical school is like stepping into quicksand: the debt quickly becomes a trap only escapable through obtaining a six figure salary.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me, or even believe me, I'm just giving you my perspective from this side of the looking glass.

To add to these list of woes, add, being responsible for people health and lives (no mean feat, for sure), having people die on, and getting sued for malpractice.

 

[GoofyPaw]

Most people go into medicine primarily for the money. Yeah, many regurgitate the cringe worthy "I want to help people" ad nauseum throughout their training (especially the pre-med phase) but I can assure you they too are motivated primarily by the salary. No sane person would go through so many years of training and debt just for the benefit of society. That being said, I am a bit confused by the point of this thread. Is it to criticize how people choose to spend their hard-earned cash? If a physician (or anyone else for that matter) decides to blow their entire salary gambling, at strip clubs, on expensive cars, or on anything else that is their right. I don't think anyone should be able to tell them otherwise. Regarding your last paragraph, if relationships are a high priority in your life, then this career will be challenging for you. Your relationships will undoubtably suffer throughout your training and it will be difficult to maintain a social life and spend time with family especially during medical school.

No, I'm not criticizing. I don't care what you do with your money, because it's your money. Some people on this forum should just cut the crap, and drop the judgement when money enters the conversation.

I don't care what your motivations are for becoming a doctor, as long are you put the patient first. Don't prescribe an extra procedure or medication for profit, because that's immoral.

 

[GoofyPaw]

You probably shouldn't do it. Medical school adcoms are imperfect, to say the least, but we do search for applicants who appear to have high intrinsic motivations to enter the profession, rather than extrinsic (money, prestige, etc.) motivations. It's not about being holier than anyone else, it's about the fact that when things get bad (as they inevitably do), people with intrinsic motivation tend to be more resilient and happier in the long run. That doesn't mean they can't or don't enjoy the monetary fruits of their labor, but when it's hour 79 and you're getting urinated on, defecated on, vomited on, and yelled at while someone literally dies in front of you, "a decent living for my wife and kids" might not cut it. And don't even get me started on the paperwork...

Most jobs in America require paperwork, so nothing unique about that. I do understand that some entering medical school might not realize this, so this is a reason why shadowing is important. Potential doctors need to understand the everyday minutia of being a doctor.

I didn't say money is my sole motivator. If medicine is your one vocation in life, then no amount of money will stop you from pursing medicine. But, I believe that for a lot of doctors, this is not the case. I think for many, there are a lot of motivations that when taken all together, make it worthwhile to become a doctor. In some ways, doctors MUST be highly compensated in order to attract people to the profession. Without a decent salary and job security, most people would turn away from the profession.

 

[Med Ed]

Most jobs in America require paperwork, so nothing unique about that.

Not unique, no, but given that the paperwork (1) determines your income, (2) determines your liability, and (3) gets significantly worse every year, I would say it's not like most other professions.

I didn't say money is my sole motivator.

Perhaps not, but if you have any other serious motivators you have kept them well hidden on this thread. The "I deserve to make bank while helping those in need" trope is equal parts naive and cliché.

Edit: I am not trying to be standoffish, so I apologize if my post comes off that way. Over the years I have worked with a number of colleagues who probably should have done something else with their lives, and I kind of see their younger selves in you. Yes, being a doctor has some serious upside, but there is a lot of downside, too. It can be all to easy to get tunnel vision on the former and disregard the latter.