Question about my education...

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MANOFKRYPTON

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I am new but I have been lurking for a long while, and I know Allopathic views concerning chiropractic. I knew that if I came here I would be getting honest answers. Please be respectful though, thanks in advance everyone!

I am attending Texas Chiropractic College this Fall. I understand that some people are under the opinion that Chiropractors do not receive enough education. Texas Chiropractic College is a mixer college, which is why I chose to receive my education there. What would you think of a Chiropractor with a B.S. in Biology, M.S. in Biology, Doctor of Chiropractic Degree, and a year residency at a VA hospital? (The residency at VA hospitals just got approved for July of 2014, and is separate from the college I will be attending. It will give me the chance to work closely with M.D.s and D.O.s as well as others, do research, among other opportunities.) I am also considering completing a 3 year residency of Neurology or Radiology in addition to the aforementioned 1 year hospital residency. So in total I am looking at spending seven and a half to ten and a half years in school.

Thanks again for all of your help and kind words!

-Ralph
 
It's a crackpot field.

Many of the programs are run by corrupt for profit institutions that take advantage of their students.

Chiros prey on the anti-intellectualism that is rampant in our society (i.e. the assumption that medicine is bad and anything "natural" is good).

If you are genuinely intellectually curious, care about people's health, and desire good training...get out before you get in.
 
Here is my understanding of chiropractic work as explained by a friend who's going into chiro school: autopsy of a whole bunch of people revealed impingement of spinal nerves related to the organs that failed, therefore posture of the spine is directly relevant to bodily health.

That, plus a bunch of stuff about how the biomechanics of the entire body start in the hips and spine, and so their proper function and angle are basically the cornerstone of all human biomechanics and are critically important to quality of life.

There were some other things, but I'd be preaching to the choir to recount them so let's just say I have a strong background in sports science related stuff and call it a day on that discussion.

It seemed legitimate. I have the same feeling towards D.O. practice - based on how it was explained to me and what I already knew above and beyond my university education on how the body actually works, it did seem legitimate. For example, fascia release is a real thing and there are a lot of tools for sale to do it yourself, so it only makes sense that it would be legitimate if there were some healthcare application and people were trained in it.

I've heard a lot of horror stories though, so obviously if I ever do any professional work with any chiro/DO people I will thoroughly cross examine them and their practice just to make sure they're legit.

Just in the strictest and most technical sense it isn't "medicine," because it doesn't involve medication, but I don't really care about that or think it's a big deal. The way I see it, there are people who will make use of preventive care, take initiative and maintain their bodies, and there are people who just want to take a pill or get a surgery, side effects be damned. There's also situations where different things are appropriate. You're not going to fix a severed limb with some little diet, for example.

...But yeah, TL,DR: I think chiro is great so long as the practitioners aren't fools.
 
I dunno... I'm a little more open to the idea. I'm still in school, though, and I haven't had a whole lot of contact with more than a few chiropractors.

I don't know if I would directly refer a patient to a chiropractor regardless of your training, though. I might tell them if they are interested in alternative medicine that they can explore that on their own.
 
DermViser said:
Has nothing to do with the number of years of your education. It has more to do with this: http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiroeval.html. To put it mildly, we think a lot of what you do is quackery.

As a chiropractor, you can not complete an allopathic Neurology or Radiology residency.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't I would not complete an Allopathic residency, but a residency to become a Chiropractic Radiologist or Chiropractic Neurologist.

I view chiropractic adjustments, the same way I view OMM. That it can be used in conjunction with other treatments to help heal the body, that it can be used positively as long as the one providing the adjustment/manipulation understands what they are doing. Do you think that with the above said education, I would be more able to understand when to and when not to adjust, similar to a DO? I do not believe that medicine is bad, I have relatives in other medical professions.
 
DermViser said:
Chiropractic Radiology 🙄

Nice to know many of their required textbooks were published in the 90s:
https://www.accr.org/getattachment/...o/ACCR-Residency-Syllabus-04-12-2007.pdf.aspx

At least they only do X-rays.
Click to expand...

I asked politely for polite and respectful responses, not rude ones 😀. As you will note the syllabus is old, and some of the books are from the 90s, but some are from the 2000s, its about half and half. I really do not want this thread to dissolve into a bad thread, I just want real helpful advice. Thanks again to everyone who has and will respond.
 
I have a friend who is working on a combo Chiro/Acupuncture degree of sorts (maybe one of each, I don't know details) and one issue he has it that they apparently admit anyone with a pulse. Sign on the dotted line, pay your $40K, and you are in school.

He has mentioned on numerous occasions that a few of his classmates are about one step below a well trained dog. These are his words, as I have not met his classmates...

What this translates to me though, is that quantity of education is irrelevant if it isn't rigorous, or filled with relevant material.
 
My opinion is basically what I've absorbed/compiled from talking to attending physicians: chiropractors can do useful physical therapy on patients, and help them with their pain, etc. by doing that. But that is basically doing massage therapy/physical therapy, not chiropractic. The issue is when they say that people have weird "subluxations" and other vague derangements and suck out thousands of dollars for "correcting" those problems. Also saying that your celiac or fibromyalgia or scleroderma can be cured with just 25 easy sessions of spinal manipulation for the low low price of $13,000. Oh but free x-rays!

Having a master's degree in bio makes no difference. There are people in medicine who do the same crap, regardless of education, but it seems more prevalent in chiro. For example, the board certified anesthesiologist running a pill-mill who got nabbed recently. He could probably tell you all about the pharmacokinetics and receptors of the different xanies and roxies he was pushing, but it was still inappropriate.

tl;dr - can be useful, shady business practices are rampant
 
maxxor said:
Let's get to the meat of the matter:

How did you decide you wanted to become a chiropractor?
Click to expand...

I have a great uncle who is a chiropractor, he has treated me for sports injuries (wrestling, running, weight training), and for over all maintenance and he said adjustments may help with my asthma. He has also treated my back from hurting it during firefighting, lifting a fat patient on a gurney while slipping on ice LOL! Now I know some are thinking asthma, OH HELLLLL NAH! (meant as a joke) He did help me personally with my asthma, he encouraged me to still carry an inhaler and use when I needed to. But while receiving adjustments, I had to use my inhaler less frequently. I have seen other Chiropractors after car accidents also. My experience with chiropractic is that it is helpful for neuromusculoskeletal problems. I would get adjusted after wrestling, all the time by him, I was always less sore the next day vs I didn't get an adjustment. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped make me the man I am today (raised me), and I saw him treat and help a lot of people using chiropractic.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
I asked politely for polite and respectful responses, not rude ones 😀. As you will note the syllabus is old, and some of the books are from the 90s, but some are from the 2000s, its about half and half. I really do not want this thread to dissolve into a bad thread, I just want real helpful advice. Thanks again to everyone who has and will respond.
Click to expand...
What answer are you looking for? You asked for honest answers, and the honest answer you'll often find is that your chosen profession is regarded as quack because it isn't as empirically and scientifically verified based, the training is not up to par to the standards of people who will receive training from med school/residency, and the practice sometimes even regarded as being dangerous and detrimental to a patient since they may not receive the necessary and correct medical treatment from an actual physician. Oh and the fact that they charge huge price tags to these patients for their "help"...
 
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witzelsucht said:
My opinion is basically what I've absorbed/compiled from talking to attending physicians: chiropractors can do useful physical therapy on patients, and help them with their pain, etc. by doing that. But that is basically doing massage therapy/physical therapy, not chiropractic. The issue is when they say that people have weird "subluxations" and other vague derangements and suck out thousands of dollars for "correcting" those problems. Also saying that your celiac or fibromyalgia or scleroderma can be cured with just 25 easy sessions of spinal manipulation for the low low price of $13,000. Oh but free x-rays!

Having a master's degree in bio makes no difference. There are people in medicine who do the same crap, regardless of education, but it seems more prevalent in chiro. For example, the board certified anesthesiologist running a pill-mill who got nabbed recently. He could probably tell you all about the pharmacokinetics and receptors of the different xanies and roxies he was pushing, but it was still inappropriate.

tl;dr - can be useful, shady business practices are rampant
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice! I am not interested in a shady business, LOL. Like you mentioned I would like to do a lot of physiotherapy with adjustments in the mix when appropriate!
 
witzelsucht said:
My opinion is basically what I've absorbed/compiled from talking to attending physicians: chiropractors can do useful physical therapy on patients, and help them with their pain, etc. by doing that. But that is basically doing massage therapy/physical therapy, not chiropractic. The issue is when they say that people have weird "subluxations" and other vague derangements and suck out thousands of dollars for "correcting" those problems. Also saying that your celiac or fibromyalgia or scleroderma can be cured with just 25 easy sessions of spinal manipulation for the low low price of $13,000. Oh but free x-rays!

Having a master's degree in bio makes no difference. There are people in medicine who do the same crap, regardless of education, but it seems more prevalent in chiro. For example, the board certified anesthesiologist running a pill-mill who got nabbed recently. He could probably tell you all about the pharmacokinetics and receptors of the different xanies and roxies he was pushing, but it was still inappropriate.

tl;dr - can be useful, shady business practices are rampant
Click to expand...


Yeah, but there are some good chiropractors out there and I want to be one of the best and help the field evolve past DD Palmer. (The guy sounds like he was a real heel) I want to practice ethically and, if at all possible do research in regards to chiropractic. I personally do not think chiropractic is leaving anytime soon, so if its hear to stay, why not make it better? Plus I know I can make a decent living and have the freedom of owning my own business.
 
Bearded_Monkey said:
I have a friend who is working on a combo Chiro/Acupuncture degree of sorts (maybe one of each, I don't know details) and one issue he has it that they apparently admit anyone with a pulse. Sign on the dotted line, pay your $40K, and you are in school.

He has mentioned on numerous occasions that a few of his classmates are about one step below a well trained dog. These are his words, as I have not met his classmates...

What this translates to me though, is that quantity of education is irrelevant if it isn't rigorous, or filled with relevant material.
Click to expand...

Granted I know a lot of heels from college who have tried to cheat off of me, they are everywhere! I have had to retake classes, but at least I didn't cheat. If, while attending chiropractic school I finds it's crap, I have no problems stating so and leaving. Is your friend relatively smart and honest, have you compared yours and his text books/materials and knowledge? If you can that would be AMAZING! THANKS!
 
The vast majority of physicians will not care about your training. In fact, you could be a fully trained physician who went on to get a chiropractor degree and the vast majority of physicians would respond with eye-rolling and doubt about your qualities as a physician. Even many DO's roll their eyes at OMM practitioners. Your patients won't care either and will still gladly line up and pay cash wherever you hang your shingle, so frankly why bother with extra training.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
I have a great uncle who is a chiropractor, he has treated me for sports injuries (wrestling, running, weight training), and for over all maintenance and he said adjustments may help with my asthma. He has also treated my back from hurting it during firefighting, lifting a fat patient on a gurney while slipping on ice LOL! Now I know some are thinking asthma, OH HELLLLL NAH! (meant as a joke) He did help me personally with my asthma, he encouraged me to still carry an inhaler and use when I needed to. But while receiving adjustments, I had to use my inhaler less frequently. I have seen other Chiropractors after car accidents also. My experience with chiropractic is that it is helpful for neuromusculoskeletal problems. I would get adjusted after wrestling, all the time by him, I was always less sore the next day vs I didn't get an adjustment. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped make me the man I am today (raised me), and I saw him treat and help a lot of people using chiropractic.
Click to expand...

So why not Physical Therapy? The majority of benefits you seem to have received from your uncle are basically PT/training + placebo effect.

I'm just speaking from my medical school primary care experiences + radiology rotations where we see the disasters that some chiropractor caused to our patients. Either 1) some crazy manipulation goes wrong, usually in the cervical spine or 2) they tell the patient that their manipulations will help them lose weight/improve their diabetes/asthma/fibromyalgia/other conditions that end up not getting conventionally treated using medicine, so then they show up in our office with an A1c of 16.

This is why we are suspicious of chiropractry. If you divorce yourself from the quackery, you are left with physical therapy.
 
DeadCactus said:
The vast majority of physicians will not care about your training. In fact, you could be a fully trained physician who went on to get a chiropractor degree and the vast majority of physicians would respond with eye-rolling and doubt about your qualities as a physician. Even many DO's roll their eyes at OMM practitioners. Your patients won't care either and will still gladly line up and pay cash wherever you hang your shingle, so frankly why bother with extra training.
Click to expand...

To give better treatment
 
maxxor said:
So why not Physical Therapy? The majority of benefits you seem to have received from your uncle are basically PT/training + placebo effect.

I'm just speaking from my medical school primary care experiences + radiology rotations where we see the disasters that some chiropractor caused to our patients. Either 1) some crazy manipulation goes wrong, usually in the cervical spine or 2) they tell the patient that their manipulations will help them lose weight/improve their diabetes/asthma/fibromyalgia/other conditions that end up not getting conventionally treated using medicine, so then they show up in our office with an A1c of 16.

This is why we are suspicious of chiropractry. If you divorce yourself from the quackery, you are left with physical therapy.
Click to expand...

Well I will soon find out! Like I said, I will be starting in fall, if its bunk I will gladly come here and say so 😀 LOL. Thanks for your help you have given me some things to read about and contemplate.
 
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MANOFKRYPTON said:
To give better treatment
Click to expand...

You have to understand that this statement makes no sense to the vast majority of physicians. It's like wanting to get an analytical chemistry degree to help your career as an alchemist or going to pharmacy school to provide better homeopathic medicine. At best it will be viewed as a sham education from a diploma mill and at worst it will be viewed as evidence that you "know better" and are simply a charlatan exploiting others.
 
maxxor said:
So why not Physical Therapy? The majority of benefits you seem to have received from your uncle are basically PT/training + placebo effect..
Click to expand...
Yup. What OPs post basically said was that glorified massage therapy/pt plus placebo effect, through the lens of selective recall bias, helped relieve already self limiting/benign MSK complaints
 
DeadCactus said:
You have to understand that this statement makes no sense to the vast majority of physicians. It's like wanting to get an analytical chemistry degree to help your career as an alchemist or going to pharmacy school to provide better homeopathic medicine. At best it will be viewed as a sham education from a diploma mill and at worst it will be viewed as evidence that you "know better" and are simply a charlatan exploiting others.
Click to expand...

Okay, that was very helpful. That has given me a lot to think about, thanks.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
I have a great uncle who is a chiropractor, he has treated me for sports injuries (wrestling, running, weight training), and for over all maintenance and he said adjustments may help with my asthma. He has also treated my back from hurting it during firefighting, lifting a fat patient on a gurney while slipping on ice LOL! Now I know some are thinking asthma, OH HELLLLL NAH! (meant as a joke) He did help me personally with my asthma, he encouraged me to still carry an inhaler and use when I needed to. But while receiving adjustments, I had to use my inhaler less frequently. I have seen other Chiropractors after car accidents also. My experience with chiropractic is that it is helpful for neuromusculoskeletal problems. I would get adjusted after wrestling, all the time by him, I was always less sore the next day vs I didn't get an adjustment. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped make me the man I am today (raised me), and I saw him treat and help a lot of people using chiropractic.
Click to expand...
You're seriously not helping your case.
 
You will not get hired with a decent salary. You will HAVE to set up your own practice and excel there.
Most chiros are hired for 40-50k a year by the smart guys.

No reputable or even semi-reputable hospital hires chiros (even if they had your same qualifications).

The most successful chiro I ever met said to me "I think it's all bulls^#$ but they don't because it gives them instant gratification. It's like drugs when you get an instant high." Needless to say he was a finance major who worked one year in corporate finance then went to chiro school.

Consider going to physical therapy school.
 
PsychPod said:
You will not get hired with a decent salary. You will HAVE to set up your own practice and excel there.
Most chiros are hired for 40-50k a year by the smart guys.

No reputable or even semi-reputable hospital hires chiros (even if they had your same qualifications).

Consider going to physical therapy school.
Click to expand...

I plan on owning a practice of my own, I know Chiros don't get paid much.
 
southernIM said:
Yup. What OPs post basically said was that glorified massage therapy/pt plus placebo effect, through the lens of selective recall bias, helped relieve already self limiting/benign MSK complaints
Click to expand...
Pretty much. I'm just surprised he doesn't see it.
 
PsychPod said:
You will not get hired with a decent salary. You will HAVE to set up your own practice and excel there.
Most chiros are hired for 40-50k a year by the smart guys.

No reputable or even semi-reputable hospital hires chiros (even if they had your same qualifications).

The most successful chiro I ever met said to me "I think it's all bulls^#$ but they don't because it gives them instant gratification. It's like drugs when you get an instant high." Needless to say he was a finance major who worked one year in corporate finance then went to chiro school.

Consider going to physical therapy school.
Click to expand...

Could you PM me the name of that chiropractor? THANKS!!!
 
Chiro without the quackery (subluxations, high velocity impact whatever, stuff to treat internal conditions) is only for MSK conditions, which makes you very similar to a PT (legimitately)
 
evilbooyaa said:
Chiro without the quackery (subluxations, high velocity impact whatever, stuff to treat internal conditions) is only for MSK conditions, which makes you very similar to a PT (legimitately)
Click to expand...

Okay, hmm. I would need to finish one year of physics and ochem, biochem and sociology, and I don't know if my microbiology and patho class will work... Maybe I should finish those classes and go DO school? Or even MD, I only have a 3.1 cGPA, and a 3.3 sGPA though. I think after reading what others have said good and bad, I would have better luck/enjoy being a DO more. I have read about DOs some, although I would like to shadow one that does OMM.

Thanks everyone, you have given me a lot to think about.
 
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MANOFKRYPTON said:
Granted I know a lot of heels from college who have tried to cheat off of me, they are everywhere! I have had to retake classes, but at least I didn't cheat. If, while attending chiropractic school I finds it's crap, I have no problems stating so and leaving. Is your friend relatively smart and honest, have you compared yours and his text books/materials and knowledge? If you can that would be AMAZING! THANKS!
Click to expand...

My friend is smart, maybe smarter than I am, but less driven and not as hard working. He didn't get into medical school and gave up after one shot. His father has an established chiro/acupuncture practice and makes $$$. Quality of life is important to him and surfing took precedence over studying. Nothing wrong with that, it's just not my style.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
Okay, hmm. I would need to finish one year of physics and ochem, biochem and sociology, and I don't know if my microbiology and patho class will work... Maybe I should finish those classes and go DO school? Or even MD, I only have a 3.1 cGPA, and a 3.3 sGPA though. I think after reading what others have said good and bad, I would have better luck/enjoy being a DO more. I have read about DOs some, although I would like to shadow one that does OMM.

Thanks everyone, you have given me a lot to think about.
Click to expand...
You're pretty far off MD. DO could be an option with some work, or you could consider OT since that seems to be basically what you're interested in, and their knowledge and abilities are much more legitimate than chiro.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
Okay, hmm. I would need to finish one year of physics and ochem, biochem and sociology, and I don't know if my microbiology and patho class will work... Maybe I should finish those classes and go DO school? Or even MD, I only have a 3.1 cGPA, and a 3.3 sGPA though. I think after reading what others have said good and bad, I would have better luck/enjoy being a DO more. I have read about DOs some, although I would like to shadow one that does OMM.

Thanks everyone, you have given me a lot to think about.
Click to expand...

Prob not competitive for US MD, might be for DO schools. However, I'd look into OT/PT given where your major interests lie.
 
tl;dr It's not on /allo/ that you'll find educated, unbiased opinions on other health care professions.
 
Doudline said:
tl;dr It's not on /allo/ that you'll find educated, unbiased opinions on other health care professions.
Click to expand...

I've found this thread to be surprisingly balanced and accurate. The core theory of traditional chiropractic is simple unscientific quackery. A lot of modern chiros don't really practice or believe much of what "chiropractic" really is.
 
Sorry for hijacking... But it is illegal to claim to be doing "physical therapy" unless you are a physical therapist. By the way, PTs treat more than musculoskeletal conditions 😉
 
Doudline said:
tl;dr It's not on /allo/ that you'll find educated, unbiased opinions on other health care professions.
Click to expand...
Umm wrong assessment there buddy. OP asked for honest critiques of his plan/profession and he got just that from residents and medical students; everyone provided the OP with concrete and valid reasons why they don't trust chiropractors and offered the OP opinions on why their extensive chiropractor training plan may not be very useful from their perspectives.

You're really going to tell this residents (and some med students) that have had to take care of patients either injured by chiropractors, or given false treatment information by them, that they have uneducated and wrongly biased opinions/views? How are you more qualified to comment on this topic than them with your pre-med status?
 
Schland said:
Sorry for hijacking... But it is illegal to claim to be doing "physical therapy" unless you are a physical therapist. By the way, PTs treat more than musculoskeletal conditions 😉
Click to expand...

Which is why they claim to be doing chiro. But chiro is essentially physical therapy. And no one said that PTs only treat MSK problems.
 
MANOFKRYPTON said:
I have a great uncle who is a chiropractor, he has treated me for sports injuries (wrestling, running, weight training), and for over all maintenance and he said adjustments may help with my asthma. He has also treated my back from hurting it during firefighting, lifting a fat patient on a gurney while slipping on ice LOL! Now I know some are thinking asthma, OH HELLLLL NAH! (meant as a joke) He did help me personally with my asthma, he encouraged me to still carry an inhaler and use when I needed to. But while receiving adjustments, I had to use my inhaler less frequently. I have seen other Chiropractors after car accidents also. My experience with chiropractic is that it is helpful for neuromusculoskeletal problems. I would get adjusted after wrestling, all the time by him, I was always less sore the next day vs I didn't get an adjustment. I have a lot of respect for the guy, he helped make me the man I am today (raised me), and I saw him treat and help a lot of people using chiropractic.
Click to expand...

There was a chiro in my area who made some pretty outlandish claims regarding what he could treat, even cure. My mother used to take a woman from our church who had Parkinson's to him; he kept telling the poor woman that he could cure her disease. He strung her along for about a decade until she finally died from her illness. About a year or two later, he dropped dead running a 5K. I considered it poetic justice for all the people he'd duped.

One of the reasons chiro may help some with minor illnesses is the placebo effect: if you think you're being treated for something, you feel better.
 
mvenus929 said:
Which is why they claim to be doing chiro. But chiro is essentially physical therapy. And no one said that PTs only treat MSK problems.
Click to expand...

While there may be some similarities it isn't the same thing.
 
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