Question about osteopathic curriculum

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MadScientist95

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Serious question here. I am currently an OMS I and my school seems to integrate OMM heavily into their curriculum, which I really enjoy. However, out of curiosity, I am wondering how DO schools make room for OMM in their curriculum. Medical school is already a ridiculous amount of information in a short period of time. Do we remove parts of the allopathic curriculum to make room for OMM or are we truly learning everything in the allopathic curriculum plus OMM, generally speaking of course?
 
Serious question here. I am currently an OMS I and my school seems to integrate OMM heavily into their curriculum, which I really enjoy. However, out of curiosity, I am wondering how DO schools make room for OMM in their curriculum. Medical school is already a ridiculous amount of information in a short period of time. Do we remove parts of the allopathic curriculum to make room for OMM or are we truly learning everything in the allopathic curriculum plus OMM, generally speaking of course?

LOL No!!!
Most likely everything plus OMM like every DO schools.
Some DO schools are more heavy on OMM than others.
At my school, it's 1-2 hr lecture and 2 hr lab every week. Any more than that I would have died because I have no interest at all in it.
 
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Serious question here. I am currently an OMS I and my school seems to integrate OMM heavily into their curriculum, which I really enjoy. However, out of curiosity, I am wondering how DO schools make room for OMM in their curriculum. Medical school is already a ridiculous amount of information in a short period of time. Do we remove parts of the allopathic curriculum to make room for OMM or are we truly learning everything in the allopathic curriculum plus OMM, generally speaking of course?
I do not think there is any difference. The time we DO students spend on OMM weekly is the time MD students spend on research I would guess.
 
Serious question here. I am currently an OMS I and my school seems to integrate OMM heavily into their curriculum, which I really enjoy. However, out of curiosity, I am wondering how DO schools make room for OMM in their curriculum. Medical school is already a ridiculous amount of information in a short period of time. Do we remove parts of the allopathic curriculum to make room for OMM or are we truly learning everything in the allopathic curriculum plus OMM, generally speaking of course?
Nice historical side note but “allopathic” is actually a derogatory term.

That out of the way. No. Nothing is removed, except for extra studying time/ leisure time/ whateverthehellyouddowithacoupleextrahoursaweek
 
At my school, we don’t finish classes and start dedicated board studying until ~April 25 in our 2nd year. Some MD schools are done in March (or earlier), I believe. The amount of OMM we take (4-5hr a week) accounts for the extra time. Same courses, same core medical knowledge, somewhat different philosophy.
 
Serious question here. I am currently an OMS I and my school seems to integrate OMM heavily into their curriculum, which I really enjoy. However, out of curiosity, I am wondering how DO schools make room for OMM in their curriculum. Medical school is already a ridiculous amount of information in a short period of time. Do we remove parts of the allopathic curriculum to make room for OMM or are we truly learning everything in the allopathic curriculum plus OMM, generally speaking of course?
Having taught at both MD and DO schools, at least at my school we teach all the stuff I saw that my MD students used to get. It seems that DO students get less free study time; a big complaint I see about DO schools in this forum is that they don't give enough dedicated time for Boards at end of OMSII.

Do keep in mind that at a fair number of MD schools, the Faculty teach about their research, and not what students should be learning.

As an aside, some DO schools are more OMM/OMT-centric than others. Some seem to give it lip service. I guess it depends how much control over the curriculum the True Believers get.
 
We get everything MDs get plus OMM added onto it, which brings more unnecessary stress and more time spent studying voodoo if you'd like to think about it that way. Anyways, if I had the choice to go DO over again or go nowhere and not be a physician I would obviously go DO again and put up with the crap that OMM is. I hate OMM just as much as everyone else but its the tax you have to pay for partying too much in undergrad or basically ****ting the bed on the MCAT. At the end of the day def blessed my school took a chance on me
 
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We learn everything an MD learns. It’s not like we skip over vital info in favor of OMM. Realistically most of the most important learning happens in year 3 anyway.

But I strongly suggest striving for an MD acceptance. A year or two to improve your application is worth it IMO
 
To be honest even if you don't ultimately end up using OMM, I think just the training and mind-set behind it better equips us for general palpation skills and musculoskeletal / neuromuscular anatomy. There are some obvious kids at every DO school who probably should not actually be there. Probably lied about the intrinsic desire to do OMM to look good on paper, and they get into the OMM lab and palpate someone like a limp noodle. But never-the-less, not ever field is going to be enhanced by your increased palpation and NMSK anatomy.
 
Do you DO schools cover biochem, histology and cell/molecular bio in dept as MD?


I remember my school cover a lot more we needed to know in these things while we only spent 6 hrs in biostats.
 
To be honest even if you don't ultimately end up using OMM, I think just the training and mind-set behind it better equips us for general palpation skills and musculoskeletal / neuromuscular anatomy. There are some obvious kids at every DO school who probably should not actually be there. Probably lied about the intrinsic desire to do OMM to look good on paper, and they get into the OMM lab and palpate someone like a limp noodle. But never-the-less, not ever field is going to be enhanced by your increased palpation and NMSK anatomy.

This just in: all the volunteering pre-meds do isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.
Breaking: students interested in competitive specialties that do research ...sometimes know they don't want to include research in their career.
Alert: when students personalize a statement in an application about why they want to attend that school in particular, they just want to attend any school.

For many reasonable people, OMM is a hoop to jump through to become a competent physician. It doesn't hurt to make it as positive of an experience as you can, but those who openly dislike it aren't much different than people who find some sort of value in it.
 
This just in: all the volunteering pre-meds do isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.
Breaking: students interested in competitive specialties that do research ...sometimes know they don't want to include research in their career.
Alert: when students personalize a statement in an application about why they want to attend that school in particular, they just want to attend any school.

For many reasonable people, OMM is a hoop to jump through to become a competent physician. It doesn't hurt to make it as positive of an experience as you can, but those who openly dislike it aren't much different than people who find some sort of value in it.

Lol by no means am I in denial that this happens - But it's just hilarious when some kids just poke at people like they have no idea what they're doing and its like 2 years in. They just don't like it and don't care who knows. I don't care, it's not my problem, it's just funny. People think because it's OMM they don't take it seriously maybe? But if you go in with the sole purpose of practicing your palpatory skills, you can at least get something out of it. They should almost make people do hands-on ice breakers during interview day just to see who's godly afraid of even being touched/touching someone. Not to be bias, but I do tend to see this trend amongst my fellow females. It's like they've never touched anyone in their life and think if they press hard on something the person is just gonna implode.
 
Don't have anything to contribute to this conversation except that I passed my Level 3 back in October and I immediately burned the Green Book and deleted all traces of anything OMT from my computer and google drive. So good to finally purge all that nonsensical bs out of my brain.

I was that kid who mindlessly poked at people for 2 straight years and had no idea what the heck I was feeling. I had all my OMT diagnoses preset prior the practical. Chapman point? WTF is that?
:banana:
 
Do you DO schools cover biochem, histology and cell/molecular bio in dept as MD?


I remember my school cover a lot more we needed to know in these things while we only spent 6 hrs in biostats.

Yes, we did a whole block dedicated to biochem, immuno, cell/micro, genetics, etc (6 weeks), and only 7-ish hours on biostats.
 
Lol by no means am I in denial that this happens - But it's just hilarious when some kids just poke at people like they have no idea what they're doing and its like 2 years in. They just don't like it and don't care who knows. I don't care, it's not my problem, it's just funny. People think because it's OMM they don't take it seriously maybe? But if you go in with the sole purpose of practicing your palpatory skills, you can at least get something out of it. They should almost make people do hands-on ice breakers during interview day just to see who's godly afraid of even being touched/touching someone. Not to be bias, but I do tend to see this trend amongst my fellow females. It's like they've never touched anyone in their life and think if they press hard on something the person is just gonna implode.

Yea, rightfully so, because the majority is garbage.

The people who don’t question OMM are perpetuating it and the OMM department.

Stuff like Muscle Energy and whatnot has its place, but that doesn’t excuse the majority that blatantly violates evidence-based medicine, proven anatomy and physics, and just any thread of common sense.
 
There are some obvious kids at every DO school who probably should not actually be there. Probably lied about the intrinsic desire to do OMM to look good on paper

Do you seriously think that most DO students are at a DO school because they have an “intrinsic desire to do OMM”? Why do you think a vast majority of DO applicants profess an unrelenting, profound love for OMM and “osteopathic philosophy” during their application cycles—and then once they graduate and start training/practicing, 90% of them completely abandon OMM? Do these people all just have massive changes of heart during their studies? Or were they being somewhat deceitful during their DO admissions interviews to gain a precious shot at becoming a doctor?

Let’s be honest for a moment: For most applicants, the DO application process is performance art. In most cases, DO is simply a backup. OMM serves as a “tax” (as Goro likes to put it) for admission into medical school with subpar academic credentials.
 
Do you seriously think that most DO students are at a DO school because they have an “intrinsic desire to do OMM”? Why do you think a vast majority of DO applicants profess an unrelenting, profound love for OMM and “osteopathic philosophy” during their application cycles—and then once they graduate and start training/practicing, 90% of them completely abandon OMM? Do these people all just have massive changes of heart during their studies? Or were they being somewhat deceitful during their DO admissions interviews to gain a precious shot at becoming a doctor?

Let’s be honest for a moment: For most applicants, the DO application process is performance art. In most cases, DO is simply a backup. OMM serves as a “tax” (as Goro likes to put it) for admission into medical school with subpar academic credentials.

Nope I'm not disillusioned at all, I understand fully not everyone cares. Just like people may spend hours pouring over histology slides about the kidney and then go on to become an orthopedic surgeon. We all learn things in medical school that will not be relevant to your life. I can't speak to everyone's OMM departments, but at least in my school it appears like the OMM faculty teach XYZ (pseudoscience) because they have to by the NBOME, and whenever I ask them questions, they are always like "Well I'd never actually do this and do this instead..." so, I feel like my school really emphasizes the truly applicable stuff that actually works, and would even be done by a trained physical therapist. Reciprocal inhibition, Isometric Relaxation, Articulatory Techniques, Myofascial Release, HVLA, Respiratory Techniques, hell even Lymphatic techniques have their place (they even make beds that literally do it for you because it works) all have their place in true sports medicine and physical therapy.

People spend so much time hating on Chapmans and Cranial, and hold these two things up on a pillar to try and discredit the entire field - Learn it for a test, and move on, and understand what's actually beneficial (If you actually want to go into a sports medicine style practice later on).

And tbh, if it takes you anymore than 0.001% of brain energy to understand/memorize Chapmans / Cranial, I just feel bad for you cuz it's the simplest thing to understand and it's free points on the COMLEX. Everyone on SDN has clearly been scarred by this :laugh: point to me on the doll where the meanie Chapman touched you. Let's talk about it.
 
Nope I'm not disillusioned at all, I understand fully not everyone cares. Just like people may spend hours pouring over histology slides about the kidney and then go on to become an orthopedic surgeon. We all learn things in medical school that will not be relevant to your life. I can't speak to everyone's OMM departments, but at least in my school it appears like the OMM faculty teach XYZ (pseudoscience) because they have to by the NBOME, and whenever I ask them questions, they are always like "Well I'd never actually do this and do this instead..." so, I feel like my school really emphasizes the truly applicable stuff that actually works, and would even be done by a trained physical therapist. Reciprocal inhibition, Isometric Relaxation, Articulatory Techniques, Myofascial Release, HVLA, Respiratory Techniques, hell even Lymphatic techniques have their place (they even make beds that literally do it for you because it works) all have their place in true sports medicine and physical therapy.

People spend so much time hating on Chapmans and Cranial, and hold these two things up on a pillar to try and discredit the entire field - Learn it for a test, and move on, and understand what's actually beneficial (If you actually want to go into a sports medicine style practice later on).

And tbh, if it takes you anymore than 0.001% of brain energy to understand/memorize Chapmans / Cranial, I just feel bad for you cuz it's the simplest thing to understand and it's free points on the COMLEX. Everyone on SDN has clearly been scarred by this :laugh: point to me on the doll where the meanie Chapman touched you. Let's talk about it.

If you had such a doll, I’d point to the arm. Bc I can’t unsee the travesty that is OMM.

For our MD colleagues, this joke makes sense bc the eye is on the humerus in Chapman’s world of make believe. Recreational drugs must’ve been amazing at the time this nonsense was dreamed up.
 
If you had such a doll, I’d point to the arm. Bc I can’t unsee the travesty that is OMM.

For our MD colleagues, this joke makes sense bc the eye is on the humerus in Chapman’s world of make believe. Recreational drugs must’ve been amazing at the time this nonsense was dreamed up.

I mean same could be said about the bible yet billions believe that. Burning plants talking to you? I think I witnessed something like that around Woodstock...

Kidding aside, I get it. If OMM wants to be legitimate, it needs to shed itself of the things it cannot prove actually exist - But, let's not forget that at the end of the day, a lot of what we learn, even the stuff we take to be the most factual undeniable truths in medicine, could easily be found to be completely wrong, or, at least be obsolete in 20 years. At least Chapman's points won't kill patients, so there's no harm in it being wrong - Like some of the stuff they taught 30-40 years ago in medical school that they believed to be facts at that time that turned out to actually be more harmful than good. And for all we know, in 30 years we develop Nerve Conduction Studies so microscopic and sensitive that we actually do develop the technology to detect the most subliminal nerve firing patterns that finally explains to all of us the true etiology of Fibromyalgia, and hell, even maybe Chapman's points. Now, until such technology and proven studies are shown to me, I agree, they should not be stressed in the curriculum - and perhaps should be taught as a "fun historical factoids" rather than adding it into every single COMBANK question *shoots self*
 
I mean same could be said about the bible yet billions believe that. Burning plants talking to you? I think I witnessed something like that around Woodstock...

Kidding aside, I get it. If OMM wants to be legitimate, it needs to shed itself of the things it cannot prove actually exist - But, let's not forget that at the end of the day, a lot of what we learn, even the stuff we take to be the most factual undeniable truths in medicine, could easily be found to be completely wrong, or, at least be obsolete in 20 years. At least Chapman's points won't kill patients, so there's no harm in it being wrong - Like some of the stuff they taught 30-40 years ago in medical school that they believed to be facts at that time that turned out to actually be more harmful than good. And for all we know, in 30 years we develop Nerve Conduction Studies so microscopic and sensitive that we actually do develop the technology to detect the most subliminal nerve firing patterns that finally explains to all of us the true etiology of Fibromyalgia, and hell, even maybe Chapman's points. Now, until such technology and proven studies are shown to me, I agree, they should not be stressed in the curriculum - and perhaps should be taught as a "fun historical factoids" rather than adding it into every single COMBANK question *shoots self*
The difference between the billions that believe in a higher power without evidence, and doctors, is only one is practicing medicine with real-world consequences.

The bolded I have heard before and I think is a harmful line of reasoning as the justification for an entire treatment modality. And the reality for some practices in OMM (cervical HVLA, intravaginal techniques) is that they can be very harmful. Some other points I think should be kept in mind:

-I'm sure some schools have at least a few true believers that make cranial + chapman's points and other extremely tenuous practices take up much more than one test. The "anything is fair game all the time" type instructors.
-Placebo is real but I don't think we should spent 300 hours on it or call it something it's not. Sure sure, some techniques are real.
-At what point should a physician's scope not include some practices of OMM? I suppose "anything to help the patient" as a scope is honorable, but if a physician spent a bunch of time on teaching my patient stretches or performing techniques as anything other than an OMM specialist, I don't think that is the most effective (intervention-wise) way to use up a physician's time. I hate the mentality of a physician that thinks they're "above" certain practices, but at the same time we receive a lot of training and should probably try to spend more time doing what only we (and not PT or chiropractics) can do.
-It should be in our nature to think critically. OMM is a class where you are forced to suspend your disbelief. One can face very real retribution if they start questioning things.

Chapman Points are not real. Palpable boggy tissue? I am not aware of it ever having been observed on ultrasound or biopsy. Heck with all the diseases a cadaver might have had, they should be all over the place.

Anyway, the way you think about this isn't the worst I've seen and you're able to consider it from multiple perspectives, which I appreciate and should probably learn from. Perhaps the poster calling for the death throes of OMM at 9:30AM on a Saturday (me) should find a better use of their time 🙂
 
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I mean same could be said about the bible yet billions believe that. Burning plants talking to you? I think I witnessed something like that around Woodstock...

Kidding aside, I get it. If OMM wants to be legitimate, it needs to shed itself of the things it cannot prove actually exist - But, let's not forget that at the end of the day, a lot of what we learn, even the stuff we take to be the most factual undeniable truths in medicine, could easily be found to be completely wrong, or, at least be obsolete in 20 years. At least Chapman's points won't kill patients, so there's no harm in it being wrong - Like some of the stuff they taught 30-40 years ago in medical school that they believed to be facts at that time that turned out to actually be more harmful than good. And for all we know, in 30 years we develop Nerve Conduction Studies so microscopic and sensitive that we actually do develop the technology to detect the most subliminal nerve firing patterns that finally explains to all of us the true etiology of Fibromyalgia, and hell, even maybe Chapman's points. Now, until such technology and proven studies are shown to me, I agree, they should not be stressed in the curriculum - and perhaps should be taught as a "fun historical factoids" rather than adding it into every single COMBANK question *shoots self*
Yeah except for our schools are training future physicians to draw conclusions from Chapman’s points so I do actually think it’s harmful. You could have someone worked up/treated for sinusitis, GERD, cardiac issues, liver/GB, colonoscopies, PSA, etc based on imaginary bumps on the chest or thigh. Waste of resources and potentially harmful. And that’s just Chapman’s points. Let’s not even get started on BS like treating A-fib with rib raising. This crap should be illegal.
 
Anyway, the way you think about this isn't the worst I've seen and you're able to consider it from multiple perspectives, which I appreciate and should probably learn from. Perhaps the poster calling for the death throes of OMM at 9:30AM on a Saturday (me) should find a better use of their time 🙂

Thank you. My intent is never to try and sway and make people believe Chapmans or other nonsensical, unproven things are 100% correct - I just don't think they're 100% wrong either. I think there's a lot of gray zones, just like a lot of things in medicine, and unfortunately the NBOME I believe has given this stuff a bad reputation, especially with the COMLEX adding it to every question, because they make it seem like this definitive science, and that's completely wrong. As a future Osteopathic Physician I totally get and appreciate that Structure dictates Function and if you are in pain, you're going to carry yourself a certain way, which is going to have downstream effects on your posture and ultimately your nerve firing patterns, which could have a positive feedback loop on function of other things. But not everyone responds to stress/pain the same way. For example we're all stressed, but we don't all give ourselves stress ulcers. So what features of physiologic stress make some prone to ulceration of their gastric mucosa and others not? I don't know - I can tell you the physiologic pathway of how it happens, but I cannot tell you why some develop it and others don't. There's so many factors and things to consider, which is where Osteopathic medicine tries to be holistic - But I think it misses the ball by trying to shove this in our faces as direct science. We might be called "Osteopathic Physicians" but in reality we are Physicians first and Osteopaths second - No one should ever override their true western scientific medical decision making process with an osteopathic finding - but, heaven forbid if you've crossed off all the boxes and run all the scans, and everything turns out negative, and conventional methods don't seem to be working or if the patient just cannot tolerate it due to GI bleeds, Kidney/Liver dysfunction, I don't see any harm in tuning into that more holistic approach and trying out some OMM. Hence why I think Chapman's points/cranial are disproportionately stressed and we should be focusing more on techniques that can actually be done for acute injury and sports medicine modalities, since these disproportionately are seen in Primary Care/Urgent Care settings and if I remember correctly, I think Back Pain alone is one of the biggest time sucks, biggest costs in medicine, and one of the biggest reasons for decreased productivity in the workplace. And unfortunately, despite it being one of the biggest complaints seen in healthcare, western medicine really does fail these patients, and I think DOs are uniquely prepared to deal with such patients, should they want to go into Primary Care.
 
Thank you. My intent is never to try and sway and make people believe Chapmans or other nonsensical, unproven things are 100% correct - I just don't think they're 100% wrong either. I think there's a lot of gray zones, just like a lot of things in medicine, and unfortunately the NBOME I believe has given this stuff a bad reputation, especially with the COMLEX adding it to every question, because they make it seem like this definitive science, and that's completely wrong. As a future Osteopathic Physician I totally get and appreciate that Structure dictates Function and if you are in pain, you're going to carry yourself a certain way, which is going to have downstream effects on your posture and ultimately your nerve firing patterns, which could have a positive feedback loop on function of other things. But not everyone responds to stress/pain the same way. For example we're all stressed, but we don't all give ourselves stress ulcers. So what features of physiologic stress make some prone to ulceration of their gastric mucosa and others not? I don't know - I can tell you the physiologic pathway of how it happens, but I cannot tell you why some develop it and others don't. There's so many factors and things to consider, which is where Osteopathic medicine tries to be holistic - But I think it misses the ball by trying to shove this in our faces as direct science. We might be called "Osteopathic Physicians" but in reality we are Physicians first and Osteopaths second - No one should ever override their true western scientific medical decision making process with an osteopathic finding - but, heaven forbid if you've crossed off all the boxes and run all the scans, and everything turns out negative, and conventional methods don't seem to be working or if the patient just cannot tolerate it due to GI bleeds, Kidney/Liver dysfunction, I don't see any harm in tuning into that more holistic approach and trying out some OMM. Hence why I think Chapman's points/cranial are disproportionately stressed and we should be focusing more on techniques that can actually be done for acute injury and sports medicine modalities, since these disproportionately are seen in Primary Care/Urgent Care settings and if I remember correctly, I think Back Pain alone is one of the biggest time sucks, biggest costs in medicine, and one of the biggest reasons for decreased productivity in the workplace. And unfortunately, despite it being one of the biggest complaints seen in healthcare, western medicine really does fail these patients, and I think DOs are uniquely prepared to deal with such patients, should they want to go into Primary Care.
You lost me on chapman points being anything other than 100% make-believe as things currently stand. If ever there is any evidence whatsoever for them, I will be happy to change my tune. How, in your mind, are these palpable and boggy patches of fluid not viewable on ultrasound or any other imaging modality?

DOs are not more holistic. Maybe in the sense that proportionally more DOs might be generalists than MDs. But to suggest that a DO in primary vs an MD in primary care has much that is more useful (okay, besides maybe 10% of OMM) compared to the MD is disrespectful. Just because DO websites say they're more holistic does not make it true. It comes down to an individual's willingness to take the time with their patient. We all receive the training.

Agree that actual medicine should be the focus of medical school.
 
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You lost me on chapman points being anything other than 100% make-believe as things currently stand. If ever there is any evidence whatsoever for them, I will be happy to change my tune. How, in your mind, are these palpable and boggy patches of fluid not viewable on ultrasound or any other imaging modality?

DOs are not more holistic. Maybe in the sense that proportionally more DOs might be generalists than MDs. But to suggest that a DO in primary vs an MD in primary care has much that is more useful (okay, besides maybe 10% of OMM) compared to the MD is disrespectful. Just because DO websites say they're more holistic does not make it true. It comes down to an individual's willingness to take the time with their patient. We all receive the training.

Agree that actual medicine should be the focus of medical school.

No I agree about the not being more holistic, that's why I said I wish there was less emphasis on things that cannot be proven and more on things that work. Hell, I would have much rather learned way more about Nutrition than Chapman's points. We learn about nutritional defects in Biochemistry, but we don't really focus too much on how to meaningfully offer dietary adjustments for people - That would be hella more holistic, and way more relevant for primary care.

Also, for what it's worth, I know you don't believe in Chapman's Points, and I too am skeptical (Some I have actually identified in myself but others are crazy), but for test-taking purposes, Chapman's points are neither "boggy" nor "fluid-filled", I'm not sure where you got this from, they are merely "lenticularly-shaped" hypertonic muscle fibers that are due to irregular firing of neural convergence patterns correlating to specific sympathetic ganglia. Everyone in the scientific community agrees muscles can be hypertonic or flaccid, and those are not things we can see with imaging even though they're features of muscles that do exist.
 
No I agree about the not being more holistic, that's why I said I wish there was less emphasis on things that cannot be proven and more on things that work. Hell, I would have much rather learned way more about Nutrition than Chapman's points. We learn about nutritional defects in Biochemistry, but we don't really focus too much on how to meaningfully offer dietary adjustments for people - That would be hella more holistic, and way more relevant for primary care.

Also, for what it's worth, I know you don't believe in Chapman's Points, and I too am skeptical (Some I have actually identified in myself but others are crazy), but for test-taking purposes, Chapman's points are neither "boggy" nor "fluid-filled", I'm not sure where you got this from, they are merely "lenticularly-shaped" hypertonic muscle fibers that are due to irregular firing of neural convergence patterns correlating to specific sympathetic ganglia. Everyone in the scientific community agrees muscles can be hypertonic or flaccid, and those are not things we can see with imaging even though they're features of muscles that do exist.

I wish we learned more about nutrition, too.

"These ganglioform contractions may feel hard boggy and tender and are usually the size of a "BB" pellet or a pea that has been split in half. These tissue texture changes may be felt on the periosteum of the rib or clavicle. An acute reflex point is more likely to feel boggy or edematous. A more chronic gangliform contraction will likely feel ropy or string." -OMM textbook.

I appear to have conflated "feeling boggy/edematous" with "being boggy/edematous". That was my mistake. I guess if they use enough vague descriptors, anything can be a point. Regardless. If it is half the size of a pea, and different in texture/density than surrounding tissue, how can it not be visualized? How on earth can you think you have found these when never in history has one has been identified in any other way than "palpated"?

I don't know enough about MRI or other imaging to dispute what can and can't be seen in muscle tissue. It seems different than a distinct little spot to me, though. But that might be a fair point!
 
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I wish we learned more about nutrition, too.

"These ganglioform contractions may feel hard boggy and tender and are usually the size of a "BB" pellet or a pea that has been split in half. These tissue texture changes may be felt on the periosteum of the rib or clavicle. An acute reflex point is more likely to feel boggy or edematous. A more chronic gangliform contraction will likely feel ropy or string." -OMM textbook.

I appear to have conflated "feeling boggy/edematous" with "being boggy/edematous". That was my mistake. I guess if they use enough vague descriptors, anything can be a point. Regardless. If it is half the size of a pea, and different in texture/density than surrounding tissue, how can it not be visualized? How on earth can you think you have found these when never in history has one has been identified in any other way than "palpated"?

I understand, thanks for the clarification! I also kind of think they might mean the posterior chapman's points with the red reflex appearing either red/moist or blanched/cold? But you're right its intentionally vague, but gotta those keywords for test taking purposes...... The only one I get consistently honestly is for GERD, and it's right after I drink coffee. I can't explain it, but I always get it! I have not identified any others. But, like I said, it can't be proven that its actually due to GERD and there's 1000 confounding factors like it might just be that I'm hunched to the left side on my computer all day, hence why we are in agreement these should be taught as minor fun facts, not so heavily emphasized.

Are muscle cramps, spasms, or hypertonia typically seen on imaging studies? Unless the muscle is literally torn or strained producing significant amounts of edema, I don't see how you would see it. But yet, people get hypertonic muscles all the time that is simply diagnosed with palpation.
 
I apologize for my ignorance but I have a question. Why are people skeptical about OMM when it seems to me a lot like physical therapy? Or are people skeptical of that field as well, I just don't know? Not trying to start anything, just wondering because it almost seemed to me that a DO = MD + PT (although I would imagine that PTs get a lot more training in that area considering that it is the primary focus of their career field).
 
I apologize for my ignorance but I have a question. Why are people skeptical about OMM when it seems to me a lot like physical therapy? Or are people skeptical of that field as well, I just don't know? Not trying to start anything, just wondering because it almost seemed to me that a DO = MD + PT (although I would imagine that PTs get a lot more training in that area considering that it is the primary focus of their career field).
The parts that overlap with physical therapy aren’t too bad. The complaints there are more along the lines of “This isn’t something a doctor does. PT should do this,” but that’s maybe 20% of OMM if I’m being generous.

Also the parts that are fake (cranial, chapmans, autonomics) are by far the heaviest tested portions of omm on comlex, which leaves a bitter taste in everyone’s mouth.

Finally, even the easy parts that do line up with PT is tortured into you and tested in the most asinine ways. There’s modified ways to do HVLA, ME, etc that’s infinitely easier and more simple that get the same results. You’ll learn this stuff from your preceptors (who aren’t omm faculty) and it’s not too bad. Sadly, the easier way to do the stuff that has some results is the way AT Still had in mind when he started teaching osteopathy.

But instead of focusing on the practical parts of omm, we spend all of our time trying to answer third order questions about which side of the table to stand on.
 
I apologize for my ignorance but I have a question. Why are people skeptical about OMM when it seems to me a lot like physical therapy? Or are people skeptical of that field as well, I just don't know? Not trying to start anything, just wondering because it almost seemed to me that a DO = MD + PT (although I would imagine that PTs get a lot more training in that area considering that it is the primary focus of their career field).

That is what we're debating now. I'm sorry, if you don't have any knowledge of Osteopathy it might have gone over your head. There are good and bad parts to OMM. A lot of it is proven, and those things are incorporated into every day practice with Physical Therapists, Athletic Trainers, or Sports Medicine physicians, they just go by different names. However, there are unproven parts to it that are at best theoretical and have no studies to prove they are of any medical benefit or sensitive/specific to even rule out/in any underlying pathology which they claim to be able to help diagnose. Furthermore, another complaint with OMM is that even if something can help, we might not see the patient long enough or truly be able to quantify its impact given the subjective nature of it. Many parts of it that are proven are utilized in PT practices where they can objectively quantify patient's Range of Motion, Flexibility, Strength, (and pain, although this is also subjective).

In my experience and through my observations, there are two Osteopathic Principles that are consistently attacked, and those are the concepts of "Chapman's Points" and "Cranial OMM". Both of these, we have no way of truly measuring and therefore we have no way to prove they truly exist or function in the way we think they do. And those who utilize them swear by it, and others just dismiss it entirely. As someone who enjoys OMM and doesn't think it takes away from my medical knowledge, but rather, assists in my understanding of anatomy, I like to defend OMM, however Chapmans and Cranial are always the big Elephant in the room. For this reason, I wish the curriculum would remove these, or at most give a one tiny little hour long lecture on them with a worksheet of where they are and end it right there. However, they are being added to every COMLEX question and touted as true science. As someone who likes OMM, I cannot defend these concepts and principles, and it therefore is frustrating, so I'd rather see them gone. However, it is annoying when people think they are above OMM or try to discredit it solely based on these two principles while actively turning a blind eye to the various other techniques which I have found to be useful in my personal life as an athlete, and millions of others have gained benefit from through various providers.

I think this animosity toward OMM also is fueled by the fact that we are already hyper-sensitive about pseudoscience in today's day and age of Anti-Vaxxers, people who are in love with their Chiropractors (Who are also anti-vaxxers), people who want to take "Natural pills" and therefore opt to go to Naturopaths over their PCPs, and other weird non-proven things that actually are more harmful than good but people are too blind to notice because it's "Organic and all natural, it must be healthy!". This is why idiots with "Hypothyroidism" go and get "Armor Thyroid" because it's "All-natural" but in actuality can cause heart problems due to supra-therapeutic levels of thyroid hormone because it is not correctly metabolized and utilized in the body the same way real Thyroid Hormone is, which Levothyroxine does behave like.

So, unfortunately, I think everything has it's purpose and OMM has its role in certain facets of medicine with certain patients, but this anti-pseudoscience culture doesn't give OMM a chance and they champion the most pseudo-science components of it to try and discredit the whole field.

Also, many DO's hate OMM because it is their "Tax" that reminds them they didn't get into MD schools. And as someone who originally wanted to go to DPT school but then wanted to go to medical school once they found out what DO was, I was more willing than most to give OMM a chance, and I enjoy the hands on time it gives with people. Whether it be placebo or not, patient's will appreciate it too. So many elderly people tell me "No one touches patient's anymore!" and this saddens them, and I agree, I think there's a lot more to medicine than just chasing numbers, which we obviously have to do, but happier people are healthier people, and maintaining strong connections and bonds is one of the easiest ways to be happy, and ultimately healthy, and if OMM helps with that, then by all means I'll use it.
 
The parts that overlap with physical therapy aren’t too bad. The complaints there are more along the lines of “This isn’t something a doctor does. PT should do this,” but that’s maybe 20% of OMM if I’m being generous.

Also the parts that are fake (cranial, chapmans, autonomics) are by far the heaviest tested portions of omm on comlex, which leaves a bitter taste in everyone’s mouth.

Finally, even the easy parts that do line up with PT is tortured into you and tested in the most asinine ways. There’s modified ways to do HVLA, ME, etc that’s infinitely easier and more simple that get the same results. You’ll learn this stuff from your preceptors (who aren’t omm faculty) and it’s not too bad. Sadly, the easier way to do the stuff that has some results is the way AT Still had in mind when he started teaching osteopathy.

But instead of focusing on the practical parts of omm, we spend all of our time trying to answer third order questions about which side of the table to stand on.

Way more than 20%, but I think it's just seems like that because we don't focus on the truly clinically relevant things. But you're right, the stupider more autonomic things are tested more, probably just because they're more "scientific sounding" and the NBOME is trying to give it validity by testing us on it? Who knows. But you're also right that they try and make set-ups way more complicated than they actually are, and then you actually go and work with someone and its just like "yeah whatever works" with many variations of the "textbook set up" - But I guess most things in medicine don't quite fit perfectly with the textbook at the end of the day.
 
Thanks for the replies. I chose to go to a DO school because I wanted to learn OMM. While I will be the first admit that it was not what I expected and that there have been some techniques we have learned so far that I don't, nor will I ever believe actually works, there are others that I do appreciate and I do believe that there are things that can be taken from OMM like enhancing my understanding of anatomy.
 
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