Question about PM&R Referral

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fozzy40

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I have a quick question for you guys about PM&R referrals...

As you probably know, PM&R is a relatively unknown field compared to other medical specialties. There are multiple reasons but I suspect that two big factors are the lack of education at the medical school level and the fact that we do not have an "organ" to call our own which makes conceptualizing what we do difficult to understand.

On the inpatient side, certain diagnoses often trigger an automatic referral i.e. spinal cord injury, traumatic brain injury, polytrauma. However, I question if the person ordering the referral actually understands the importance of the referral or if it is just a reflex.

As outpatient FP practitioners, what is your trigger to send your patient to be evaluated by a physiatrist?

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The biggest factor seems to be the primary care community's level of understanding of physiatry practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15895332

I'll generally refer to physiatry for some form of rehab or for assistance with chronic pain management. If all a patient needs is a specific type of physical therapy, I usually refer directly to the therapist.
 
Thanks for the response. I'm familiar with the McKenna paper and I'm actually citing it in a publication I'm working on (unrelated to the question asked here.) As you said, the problem is actually much bigger in that the entire medical community likely is uninformed. My guess is that family and internal medicine is more aware than others.

Aside from chronic pain management, what other issues do you typically refer patient's for a physiatric evaluation?
 
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PMnR make up a very small part of my referrals. I send my backs to them (spine fellowship trained) if they need an injection but not surgery. I send them patients who need functional bracing eval if I can't think of anything better. I send them people who need palliative support from baclofen pump or botox.

I do fine with my own msk work and manage a lot of my own stroke patients with partnership with PT. It all depends on your knowledge of PT in your community understanding what they do well and not do well. I don't use PMnR to tell me how to write a better PT script.

I don't understand PMnR very well because they seem like they are always looking for something to hold on to. It's a moving target which makes referring difficult.

I once sat down with a PMnR doc who left an academics practice to start a private practice. He spoke longer about the things he didn't do, than about the things he did do. I don't know what kind of doctors he worked with at the medical school, but I got the sense he was trying to avoid a dump from me. Bad business strategy if you ask me. He only got 1-2 patients from me in the last 2 years.

I think he had a very difficult time articulating what he does. It's a big problem when you rely on "automatic consults" and can't go out into the community to say what you do.
 
PMnR make up a very small part of my referrals. I send my backs to them (spine fellowship trained) if they need an injection but not surgery. I send them patients who need functional bracing eval if I can't think of anything better. I send them people who need palliative support from baclofen pump or botox.

I do fine with my own msk work and manage a lot of my own stroke patients with partnership with PT. It all depends on your knowledge of PT in your community understanding what they do well and not do well. I don't use PMnR to tell me how to write a better PT script.

I don't understand PMnR very well because they seem like they are always looking for something to hold on to. It's a moving target which makes referring difficult.

I once sat down with a PMnR doc who left an academics practice to start a private practice. He spoke longer about the things he didn't do, than about the things he did do. I don't know what kind of doctors he worked with at the medical school, but I got the sense he was trying to avoid a dump from me. Bad business strategy if you ask me. He only got 1-2 patients from me in the last 2 years.

I think he had a very difficult time articulating what he does. It's a big problem when you rely on "automatic consults" and can't go out into the community to say what you do.

Thanks for your detailed response. The broadness of our field is what makes it great but also can be a weakness from a perception stand point, as you stated. It's great from a practice perspective because you can really carve out your niche. From a referral stand point, you can meet 2-3 different physiatrists and all of them practice completely differently. So I definitely understand why it's difficult to understand completely what we do.

Unfortunately, there can be a dumping culture propagated by other specialties in a physiatric academic setting. Often times we will get these "automatic referrals" which is usually by services that do not understand our career scope and just really want to get patients off their service. I have friends who are now job searching and they are finding themselves having to do a lot of education about our field during their job interviews. It's great because once they find out what we have to offer employers are usually pretty excited! So in some respects, I can understand the "anti-dump" attitude because ortho/spine groups are often looking for "someone" to manage only their failed-back surgery and chronic pain patients. I agree though, it's not a great way to present yourself. However, it's a fine line to walk between being the new guy in the community and negotiating what patients you want to see when the medical community does not a completely understanding about what we do.

I will be entering the practice world after fellowship and looking forward to educating my community about what I do. If you have any suggestions on things I should address about PM&R, please let me know!
 
I think the physiatrist that I had lunch with had no clue what he was in for when he decided to leave the academic medical center to open shop out in the community. Academic medical centers are dominated by internists and surgeons; and when he went out into the community to interact with FP's who train in unopposed community programs, he didn't understand what he was talking about.

The difference between FM and IM is that FM has a MSK curriculum built into the training. We do that in several ways. We dedicate a minimum of 2 months or 200 hours to ortho and sports medicine, not to mention neurology, and we spend an incredibly large amount of time in the ambulatory setting in our continuity clinics where MSK problems are likely to present. MSK is the #3 largest bank of questions asked on our board certification and ITE, behind cardio & pulmonary. It is more important than GI in the eyes of the test makers. In FM, at least we have structure.

Internists don't have that, at least from when I was a med student comparing curricula. Internists have zero time devoted to MSK and spend a minimal amount of time in the ambulatory setting, unless you're on the primary care track. With the exception of rheumatology (and arguably neurology), a majority of their training focuses on organ systems in the thorax/abdomen.

Dumping happens for many reasons, but one of which is lack of training. Of course, PM&R is going to get the IM dump because IM docs aren't trained in matters MSK. FP's who don't pay attention during their rotations or their patient encounters are proned to dump as well when they don't understand what's going on and what to do. The failure isn't primary care's awareness of what PM&R is or what it does... the failure is in MSK training during medical education and in primary care residency education.

If you look at your medical school curriculum, when was the last time you had MSK training? 1st year anatomy? 1st/2nd year physical diagnosis class? Even osteopathic students turn their backs to MSK training because they're dying to be like allopathic students. The rest of the medical school curriculum is somehow related to internal medicine and surgery. Medical schools dump MSK training to orthopedists. So, if a student who was interested in primary care, who recognizes early that MSK is a large component of primary care, they have to compete with the gunners vying for an orthopedic match for an elective spot. So, basically, that's not going to happen. At my medical school, you got the ortho elective if you have a "particular interest" in orthopedics (hidden language for you are doing an audition elective). The worse ignorance comes when people say, "well, if you're so interested in orthopedics, why don't you become an orthopod?" What? I'm interested in orthopedics in the context of primary care. I don't care what nail you prefer for that tibia.

It's very well known how dismal MSK education is in our medical school system. It's been published many times in academic medical education journals.

BUT, here's your opportunity... If PM&R wants to be relevant, it needs to participate in all 4 years of medical school education AND all 3 years of primary care residency training. It needs to get it's clinical faculty involved early in anatomy dissection. It needs to take medical students interested in primary care medicine and teach them MSK exam, diagnosis, and management. It needs to offer itself to the training of primary care residents at managing ambulatory issues.

You start with education, and education fosters relationships. You can use that PM&R-primary care relationship as a gateway to show primary care all the other things that PM&R doctors are good at.

Unfortunately, the academic medical center isn't about relationships. It's about roles. And doctors who practice there try to define relationships by defining roles; in turn, they try to control relationships by controling roles (i.e. automatic consults, privileging). So when a PM&R doc shows up at my door step and tells me what I'm not good/trained at and tries to tell me what he's better at, I'm going to show him the curb. It's like an absent parent coming back into someone's life many years later, trying to dictate how patients should flow through the medical system. They were never a part of my medical education. What makes them think they can walk in and get my referrals? I mean, did you really think that 5 minutes of burger and fries will change that? You can't have a healthy relationship if one person is trying to control how that relationship goes. Everyone who's been on bad 1st dates would know about that.

I think PM&R can have a strong role and partnership with primary care, but I think they're trying too hard to pick up procedural scraps from neurology and orthopedics as a specialist on one hand, and on the other hand they try to displace primary care in the realm of MSK as a generalist on the other. The reality in community medicine is that PM&R doctors are a "nice to have" but not a "need to have", despite what they think. Many communities do not have PM&R docs, and people get over it. Do you think I would be sending you a Percocet addict if I knew what is causing his pain and can fix it for him? Of course not, I'd take care of it myself, bam bam, and move on. I am asking for your help because you are a specialist, so start acting like one, put your training to use, and step up to the challenge of taking care of difficult patients. Don't tell me that you don't want to see chronic pain patients.

If you want to have an impact, the time is now. The focus is on primary care, yet again; and rather than trying to define what a primary care doctor's boundaries are by trying to tell me what I can or cannot do, partner up, teach, mentor, and serve as my consultant, my back up. Get involved in medical education and embrace the education of a medical student who is interested in primary care as much as you would a medical student interested in PM&R. Referrals will naturally follow.
 
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It sounds like the interaction that you had with that one physiatrist really left an impression!

In terms of medical education and a MSK curriculum, you are actually preaching to the choir (me!) I agree with what you've stated. Unfortunately, medical education curriculum is definitely hard to crack. EVERY specialty is looking for more pre-clinical time to make a difference. It's definitely harder for smaller specialties such as PM&R. Fortunately at my residency program, we are pretty well integrated into their medical school curriculum. We participate plenty in physical exam series, problem based learning groups, and a mandatory 2 week elective for 4th year medical students. That being said, we are the exception and not the rule. We have actually been trying to collaborate with the family medicine residency and sports medicine program but unfortunately have met some resistance on their end.

I think PM&R can have a strong role and partnership with primary care, but I think they're trying too hard to pick up procedural scraps from neurology and orthopedics as a specialist on one hand, and on the other hand they try to displace primary care in the realm of MSK as a generalist on the other. The reality in community medicine is that PM&R doctors are a "nice to have" but not a "need to have", despite what they think. Many communities do not have PM&R docs, and people get over it.

If you want to have an impact, the time is now. The focus is on primary care, yet again; and rather than trying to define what a primary care doctor's boundaries are by trying to tell me what I can or cannot do, partner up, teach, mentor, and serve as my consultant, my back up. Get involved in medical education and embrace the education of a medical student who is interested in primary care as much as you would a medical student interested in PM&R. Referrals will naturally follow.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "procedural scraps". Can you elaborate? Some communities "get over" not having a physiatrist but that does not necessarily mean that people may not benefit from our services.

With your boundary comment, were your referring to the physiatrist who showed up at your door or the specialty in general? This is news to me but is there a perception that PM&R is trying to take away referrals from FP? Either way, there is plenty of MSK problems to go around for everybody.
 
It sounds like the interaction that you had with that one physiatrist really left an impression!

LOL. Yea, I guess so. I'm probably embellishing it in my mind and making it a bigger deal than what truly transpired. Nice guy, was probably just trying too hard to orchestrate the "perfect" referral, which was rather irksome. Specialists who do well in my community are those that support my practice pattern, are available to me when I need them, treat my patients with respect, report back to me in a timely manner, and have good outcomes. These are the things that affect my referral pattern. I think medical care is optimized when specialists are allowed to compete against each other based on those variables, and I get incredibly irritated when insurance companies or hospitals or whoever tries to over-orchestrate who I refer my patients to.

My patients come back to me and spill the beans on the specialists they see. It's actually quite funny. They tell me everything that range from bedside manner to practice efficiency. They tell me "love him/her, thanks" to "don't bother, take them off your list." And, I keep a rap sheet on every where I send patients to. Unfortunately, insurance companies don't understand quality and they make us refer to the lowest bidder some times.

I think as primary care docs, we're already annoyed when people tell us what to do.

The difference, I think, between academia and community medicine is the referral patterns are flip flopped. In academic medical centers, specialists dictate how primary care doctors refer. In community medicine, primary care doctors dictate which specialists get to see which patients. This guy was fish out of water, I suppose.
 
In terms of medical education and a MSK curriculum, you are actually preaching to the choir (me!) I agree with what you've stated. Unfortunately, medical education curriculum is definitely hard to crack. EVERY specialty is looking for more pre-clinical time to make a difference. It's definitely harder for smaller specialties such as PM&R. Fortunately at my residency program, we are pretty well integrated into their medical school curriculum. We participate plenty in physical exam series, problem based learning groups, and a mandatory 2 week elective for 4th year medical students. That being said, we are the exception and not the rule. We have actually been trying to collaborate with the family medicine residency and sports medicine program but unfortunately have met some resistance on their end.

Yea, logic doesn't always prevail. It's about self-preservation. I'm not saying I'm above all this. I'm just saying rather than getting into a pissing contest, let's just work together on how to take care of a patient. Our strengths and weaknesses will become apparent once we get to work.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by "procedural scraps". Can you elaborate? Some communities "get over" not having a physiatrist but that does not necessarily mean that people may not benefit from our services.

Well, I'm referring to EMG/NCV bubble that neuro and PM&R fight over specifically, although I will admit those are pretty juicy scraps.

With your boundary comment, were your referring to the physiatrist who showed up at your door or the specialty in general? This is news to me but is there a perception that PM&R is trying to take away referrals from FP? Either way, there is plenty of MSK problems to go around for everybody.

I think the question is what is it that general non-fellowship-trained PM&R docs want in the outpatient setting? Do they want direct access to patients, in which case they'll have to articulate clearly what they do to the general community in an already crowded space? Or, do they want a subset of cases, which means they have to demonstrate a value-add? Like anything in medicine, it really all depends on the needs of the community.
 
So getting back to my original question, based on the two posters that you will typically refer to a physiatrist for:

1) chronic pain management
2) interventional spine procedures
3) prosthetics/orthotics
4) NCV/EMG

We are trained to manage other issues but it seems that these are the common things in your community. Anything other issues/diagnoses?
 
I'm a 4th year that just matched FM in the recent military match, however, I was the coordinator of our PM&R interest group as a 2nd year. I can tell you that in our area, the PM&R docs present themselves as "managers" of inpatient rehab. Other than the rare doc that went full outpatient sports med, almost everyone we've had come talk to the group is 100% hospital based and explains their practice as "acting as a managing unit for all the different partners in the rehab setting (therapists, all the different physician specialists, nutrition, case management, social work, psych, etc.)" and this is how they are promoting the field. Most of them seem to focus on SCI/TBI and chronic pain. They come and do a MSK exam night and an EMG/NCV demonstration every year. One of our dean's is even still a practicing PM&R doc. I think out of 320 students in last year's class, 2 or 3 matched PM&R.
 
Any other thoughts?

If not, thanks again to those who posted!
 
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