Question about Retina Fellowships

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Akaandykay

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How is it that the Bascom Palmer Eye Institute at the University of Miami is ranked #1 by US News, yet they have two Retina Fellowships available post-match?

I am still premed and I admit that I don't really understand the ins and outs of how programs are ranked or what to look for when applying to fellowships, but it seems strange to me that such a well-respected program would not be able to fill its fellowships. Can anyone explain?

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"Medical Retina" not "Surgical Retina"

Medical Retina is not even close to as competitive as Surgical. Many people do not even go into a medical retina fellowship because their residency training provided ample opportunity to learn these "basic" procedures. Some people get so little exposure to medical retina in their residency, they have to do a fellowship to really get a hands on experience of everything it entails. It is not as financially rewarding as surgical retina and many comprehensive ophthalmologists are incorporating it into their practice with ease without the extra training etc.

I am sure others can expound on this much better than me, but I know for a fact some residency programs provide so much medical retina exposure you will have done more medical retina procedures in three years of residency than most people who do residency and the fellowship.

I am sure you can look up online what each retina fellowship entails in regards to difference in procedures and complexity etc.
 
"Medical Retina" not "Surgical Retina"

Medical Retina is not even close to as competitive as Surgical. Many people do not even go into a medical retina fellowship because their residency training provided ample opportunity to learn these "basic" procedures. Some people get so little exposure to medical retina in their residency, they have to do a fellowship to really get a hands on experience of everything it entails. It is not as financially rewarding as surgical retina and many comprehensive ophthalmologists are incorporating it into their practice with ease without the extra training etc.

I am sure others can expound on this much better than me, but I know for a fact some residency programs provide so much medical retina exposure you will have done more medical retina procedures in three years of residency than most people who do residency and the fellowship.

I am sure you can look up online what each retina fellowship entails in regards to difference in procedures and complexity etc.

but dont you think that medical retina at Bascom is still something that people are looking for ,,, esp with the better life style compared to surgical retina
 
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but dont you think that medical retina at Bascom is still something that people are looking for ,,, esp with the better life style compared to surgical retina

Medical retina training is basically the same everywhere. So it is less about the "training" and more about location and other factors. Bascom is one of the busiest clinics in the country so some people may not want to be that slammed for the fellowship year with no "added training/educational value" after a certain amount of procedures done. Medical retina training is pretty standard across the board from talking to a lot of residents and attendings.
 
"Medical Retina" not "Surgical Retina"

Medical Retina is not even close to as competitive as Surgical. Many people do not even go into a medical retina fellowship because their residency training provided ample opportunity to learn these "basic" procedures. Some people get so little exposure to medical retina in their residency, they have to do a fellowship to really get a hands on experience of everything it entails. It is not as financially rewarding as surgical retina and many comprehensive ophthalmologists are incorporating it into their practice with ease without the extra training etc.

I am sure others can expound on this much better than me, but I know for a fact some residency programs provide so much medical retina exposure you will have done more medical retina procedures in three years of residency than most people who do residency and the fellowship.

I am sure you can look up online what each retina fellowship entails in regards to difference in procedures and complexity etc.

Sorry, but you don't really know what you're talking about--don't care how many residents and attendings you've talked to. I won't fault you too much, though, as I see you're still a medical student. As a practicing medical retina specialist who actually helps train fellows, let me enlighten you. You did make one correct point. Medical retina is not surgical retina. Everything else you stated is either partially or wholly inaccurate.

I would argue that medical retina is actually more competitive than surgical. Granted, not as many apply directly to medical fellowships (some only apply as a backup to surgical), but there are far fewer positions available. The only US fellowships are BP (2), Duke (3), USC (1), NEI (1), Northwestern (1), UK (1), and Tufts (1). That's only 10 total spots. [There's also Joslin, but that's a hybrid fellowship with some surgery and a focus on diabetes.]

As far as learning the "basic" procedures in residency, you've missed the point. Learning a procedure, such as an injection or laser, is clearly not that difficult (heck, I was pretty comfortable with cataracts after about 40 cases). You cover a little of everything in most residencies, so why even have fellowships? The fact is that learning when to do what procedure and when to change your approach is the difficult part. My residency was actually pretty retina-heavy, but once I was in fellowship doing exclusively retina every day, I realized how ignorant I still was. It's not as simple as needle here, laser there. For instance, did you know there are five different types of neovascular AMD? And that each responds differently to treatment? Some require more frequent injections. Some require more than just injections. Some won't respond to injections at all. I would argue that many surgical fellowships don't spend enough time on medical retina. There were surgical fellows where I trained that actually came to the medical fellows for advice.

As far as the financial aspect, ask any retina surgeon and he/she will tell you that you lose money when you go to the OR. The fact is that medical retina specialists can make as much as, if not more than, surgical.

Yes, there are comprehensive ophthalmologists who incorporate medical retina into their practices, but not at high volumes and not the difficult cases. In rural areas, some comprehensive docs will even do intravitreal injections, but that's not the norm.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, wants more information about medical retina, feel free to PM me. 😎
 
"Medical Retina" not "Surgical Retina"

Medical Retina is not even close to as competitive as Surgical. Many people do not even go into a medical retina fellowship because their residency training provided ample opportunity to learn these "basic" procedures. Some people get so little exposure to medical retina in their residency, they have to do a fellowship to really get a hands on experience of everything it entails. It is not as financially rewarding as surgical retina and many comprehensive ophthalmologists are incorporating it into their practice with ease without the extra training etc.

I am sure others can expound on this much better than me, but I know for a fact some residency programs provide so much medical retina exposure you will have done more medical retina procedures in three years of residency than most people who do residency and the fellowship.

I am sure you can look up online what each retina fellowship entails in regards to difference in procedures and complexity etc.

Actually, according to the SF Match website, I believe it is a surgical retina fellowship (http://www.sfmatch.org/vacancies/f_ophthalmology.htm#Ret), I say this because it has a distinction between "medical retina" and "retina." Am I reading this correctly?
 
Actually, according to the SF Match website, I believe it is a surgical retina fellowship (http://www.sfmatch.org/vacancies/f_ophthalmology.htm#Ret), I say this because it has a distinction between "medical retina" and "retina." Am I reading this correctly?

It's listed under the retina heading, rather than medical retina, but it is a medical retina fellowship:

4154 U Miami/ Bascom Palmer - Palm Beach Medical Retina
SUBSPECIALTY: Retina
DIRECTORS: Phillip J. Rosenfeld, MD, PhD
DESCRIPTION: Two post-match vacancies available.
 
Although I will claim just being a medical student I stand by most of what I said.

1. Comprehensive ophthalmologists are venturing into the medical retina territory with ease nowadays and have more incentive to do so(more income). When I asked various attendings and residents at the program I just matched at their thoughts on if I should pursue a medical retina fellowship later, they laughed and said it would be a "waste of time" because my three years of residency with without a doubt have me ready to easily handle 99.9% of the cases that I would see and that the numbers would total to be far and beyond what an average medical retina fellow would end up with. Although this certainly varies from program to program in regards to strength and volume of training in residency. For example, at some programs you may be lucky to perform a total 50 PRPs in three years and at others you WILL perform 250+ PRP's in three years of residency. Just an example.

2. I am sorry but saying medical retina is possibly more competitive than surgical is absurd.

3. Financially, right now medical retina is very lucrative, but if you understand the economics and trends of ophthalmology, "comprehensive ophthalmologists" that feel comfortable in practicing "medical retina" will easily do so on their own and have already started.

4. To the medical student, ask around what is more competitive and I am sure you will get your answer. If I am wrong, so be it. However, the fact that there have been 2 unmatched spots in MEDICAL RETINA since early December should probably tell you something.

5. Just because Visionary was "ignorant" to some of the pathology that happens in the retina, does not mean every person who finishes residency are. Depends on the strength of your program and how well they teach you and if you have the desire to read up as much as you can during your residency. The reality is that it would be hard, if not impossible, to find a strong and succesful "retina surgeon" who did not participate in a surgical retina fellowship. In addition, there are plenty of ophthalmologists who are strong and succesful in the field of medical retina who never did a medical retina fellowship.

6. To the original poster, I am not even trying to be biased because I do not even know what specialty I want to go into. If you spend enough time in an ophthalmology department, you will figure it all out.
 
Although I will claim just being a medical student I stand by most of what I said.

1. Comprehensive ophthalmologists are venturing into the medical retina territory with ease nowadays and have more incentive to do so(more income). When I asked various attendings and residents at the program I just matched at their thoughts on if I should pursue a medical retina fellowship later, they laughed and said it would be a "waste of time" because my three years of residency with without a doubt have me ready to easily handle 99.9% of the cases that I would see and that the numbers would total to be far and beyond what an average medical retina fellow would end up with. Although this certainly varies from program to program in regards to strength and volume of training in residency. For example, at some programs you may be lucky to perform a total 50 PRPs in three years and at others you WILL perform 250+ PRP's in three years of residency. Just an example.

2. I am sorry but saying medical retina is possibly more competitive than surgical is absurd.

3. Financially, right now medical retina is very lucrative, but if you understand the economics and trends of ophthalmology, "comprehensive ophthalmologists" that feel comfortable in practicing "medical retina" will easily do so on their own and have already started.

4. To the medical student, ask around what is more competitive and I am sure you will get your answer. If I am wrong, so be it. However, the fact that there have been 2 unmatched spots in MEDICAL RETINA since early December should probably tell you something.

5. Just because Visionary was "ignorant" to some of the pathology that happens in the retina, does not mean every person who finishes residency are. Depends on the strength of your program and how well they teach you and if you have the desire to read up as much as you can during your residency. The reality is that it would be hard, if not impossible, to find a strong and succesful "retina surgeon" who did not participate in a surgical retina fellowship. In addition, there are plenty of ophthalmologists who are strong and succesful in the field of medical retina who never did a medical retina fellowship.

6. To the original poster, I am not even trying to be biased because I do not even know what specialty I want to go into. If you spend enough time in an ophthalmology department, you will figure it all out.


Wow. You are wrong on so many levels.
 
theretinageek...


Where am I wrong? Let me know so that I can prove you wrong.

I am not trying to "bash" on medical retina. Heck I may even decide to do a fellowship in it one day if I feel inclined too post residency, but I am pretty sure I am spot on in what I posted.
 
theretinageek...

Where am I wrong? Let me know so that I can prove you wrong.

I am not trying to "bash" on medical retina. Heck I may even decide to do a fellowship in it one day if I feel inclined too post residency, but I am pretty sure I am spot on in what I posted.

I don't think you're yet capable of comprehending how and why you're wrong. Your response to my post pretty much demonstrated that. It's kind of like some posters on the college football recruiting boards this time of year. Because they watch a lot of football, they think they know more than the coaches and recruiting services, even though most have likely never played a down. Get in touch with me when you're a third year. Perhaps then you'll understand.
 
I don't think you're yet capable of comprehending how and why you're wrong. Your response to my post pretty much demonstrated that. It's kind of like some posters on the college football recruiting boards this time of year. Because they watch a lot of football, they think they know more than the coaches and recruiting services, even though most have likely never played a down. Get in touch with me when you're a third year. Perhaps then you'll understand.

Don't hate because I bruised your ego. I was not trying to do that at all. It is very natural to defend your territory. You did a medical retina fellowship and i am sure you do very well for yourself, but reality is still reality. Sorry.

"For instance, did you know there are five different types of neovascular AMD? And that each responds differently to treatment? Some require more frequent injections. Some require more than just injections. "
Shocker: Many residency programs actually teach this fact and have enough volume of patients to demonstrate this.

Deal with it. Only a resident who has gone through three years of ophtho residency can decide if they want/need more training to approach different areas and I know plenty of former residents who practice med retina who are in both camps. The one's who did not go on to do a Medical Retina fellowship are doing very well and continually say they were well trained enough in residency. They also took the time to read the literature on the subject during residency so they didn't just show up not knowing that. "For instance, did you know there are five different types of neovascular AMD? And that each responds differently to treatment? Some require more frequent injections. Some require more than just injections. " Seems like something you could learn if you kept up with the literature. But thats just me.
 
Let's just close this thread and move on. This is going nowhere.
 
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Why don't you just skip your ophthalmology residency.

Skip fellowship too.

You've got this all figured out bigguy.

🙄
 
Don't hate because I bruised your ego. I was not trying to do that at all. It is very natural to defend your territory. You did a medical retina fellowship and i am sure you do very well for yourself, but reality is still reality. Sorry.

"For instance, did you know there are five different types of neovascular AMD? And that each responds differently to treatment? Some require more frequent injections. Some require more than just injections. "
Shocker: Many residency programs actually teach this fact and have enough volume of patients to demonstrate this.

Deal with it. Only a resident who has gone through three years of ophtho residency can decide if they want/need more training to approach different areas and I know plenty of former residents who practice med retina who are in both camps. The one's who did not go on to do a Medical Retina fellowship are doing very well and continually say they were well trained enough in residency. They also took the time to read the literature on the subject during residency so they didn't just show up not knowing that. "For instance, did you know there are five different types of neovascular AMD? And that each responds differently to treatment? Some require more frequent injections. Some require more than just injections. " Seems like something you could learn if you kept up with the literature. But thats just me.

Hey, no worries. My ego is completely secure. Honestly, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. As DOCTORSAIB said, you seem to have it all figured out. You must have matched to an incredible residency, too. Good for you! The concept of resistant AMD subtypes and targeted therapy has only been more broadly discussed in the retina community over the last year or so, and that's mainly been at meetings--little actual peer-reviewed literature on the subject. Many are still just injecting away or giving up on resistant cases.

I'm actually posting for the other medical students and residents who are open-minded enough to appreciate my perspective and experience. I'm one of a few attendings who regularly post to this forum. I try and answer questions, offer advice, and (in the case of your post) correct misinformation. The readers of this forum can decide for themselves whether they want to take the word of a medical student or a board-certified, fellowship-trained medical retina specialist.

Here's my main issue with your post. You basically denigrated an entire subspecialty, stating that it's only beneficial for those who didn't have enough exposure in residency. Following your logic, why do we have glaucoma fellowships? I did quite a few trabs and tubes in residency. They weren't that hard (tubes, especially), and I know some comprehensive docs who do them. Why do we have peds fellowships? I did plenty of muscles in residency, and you pretty much aspirate pediatric cataracts. I also know some comprehensive docs who do muscles. I guess the only reason to even do a 2 year surgical retina fellowship is to learn vits and buckles, because most residencies don't give you enough volume. Should be able to do that in a year, though, don't you think? Heck, the actual surgeries aren't that difficult. Why are most surgical fellowships 2 years? Maybe because 85-90% of retina is medical and most of the 1st year of fellowship is medical? You should call around to some of the surgical retina fellowship directors, though, and tell them you would like to just set up a 1 year, purely surgical fellowship, because you will get enough medical retina training in residency. While you're at it, you should really go give a talk at this year's ASRS meeting in Boston to warn the retina community about the coming surplus of retina specialists, because the darn comprehensive docs are scooping up all the medical retina, which is the bulk of their livelihood.

Enough silliness, though. The real point of any fellowship is to obtain advanced training in a subspecialty. It's kind of like learning a foreign language, say Spanish. Residency is like the Spanish classes you take in high school or college. They teach you the core vocabulary and grammar. If you stop there, you can probably get along okay in a Spanish-speaking country. Fellowship is like an immersion course, where you live in a Spanish-speaking country with a host family for a period of time and speak only Spanish. That's how you pick up the intricacies of the language and approach fluency. The final step is practicing on your own, like moving permanently to a Spanish-speaking country. That's when you achieve true fluency. You'll be amazed at how much more you learn, when you're out on your own--no faculty backup, following your own patients on a regular basis. Love this job!
 
Hey, no worries. My ego is completely secure. Honestly, I'm not trying to convince you of anything. As DOCTORSAIB said, you seem to have it all figured out. You must have matched to an incredible residency, too. Good for you! The concept of resistant AMD subtypes and targeted therapy has only been more broadly discussed in the retina community over the last year or so, and that's mainly been at meetings--little actual peer-reviewed literature on the subject. Many are still just injecting away or giving up on resistant cases.

I'm actually posting for the other medical students and residents who are open-minded enough to appreciate my perspective and experience. I'm one of a few attendings who regularly post to this forum. I try and answer questions, offer advice, and (in the case of your post) correct misinformation. The readers of this forum can decide for themselves whether they want to take the word of a medical student or a board-certified, fellowship-trained medical retina specialist.

Here's my main issue with your post. You basically denigrated an entire subspecialty, stating that it's only beneficial for those who didn't have enough exposure in residency. Following your logic, why do we have glaucoma fellowships? I did quite a few trabs and tubes in residency. They weren't that hard (tubes, especially), and I know some comprehensive docs who do them. Why do we have peds fellowships? I did plenty of muscles in residency, and you pretty much aspirate pediatric cataracts. I also know some comprehensive docs who do muscles. I guess the only reason to even do a 2 year surgical retina fellowship is to learn vits and buckles, because most residencies don't give you enough volume. Should be able to do that in a year, though, don't you think? Heck, the actual surgeries aren't that difficult. Why are most surgical fellowships 2 years? Maybe because 85-90% of retina is medical and most of the 1st year of fellowship is medical? You should call around to some of the surgical retina fellowship directors, though, and tell them you would like to just set up a 1 year, purely surgical fellowship, because you will get enough medical retina training in residency. While you're at it, you should really go give a talk at this year's ASRS meeting in Boston to warn the retina community about the coming surplus of retina specialists, because the darn comprehensive docs are scooping up all the medical retina, which is the bulk of their livelihood.

Enough silliness, though. The real point of any fellowship is to obtain advanced training in a subspecialty. It's kind of like learning a foreign language, say Spanish. Residency is like the Spanish classes you take in high school or college. They teach you the core vocabulary and grammar. If you stop there, you can probably get along okay in a Spanish-speaking country. Fellowship is like an immersion course, where you live in a Spanish-speaking country with a host family for a period of time and speak only Spanish. That's how you pick up the intricacies of the language and approach fluency. The final step is practicing on your own, like moving permanently to a Spanish-speaking country. That's when you achieve true fluency. You'll be amazed at how much more you learn, when you're out on your own--no faculty backup, following your own patients on a regular basis. Love this job!

very well explained 👍
 
helpful reply and input... thanks VISIONARY.
 
Although it is all about comfort level in regards to what an ophthalmologis can and can't do, I understand the value in a fellowship. Many "specialists" never partake in a fellowship and that is just a fact of life. Although, even if the fellowship training, is 99% redundant, having it on your CV may be crucial to landing many jobs. This is a pointless discussion because clearly Visionary you do not understand the economic and business side of medicine and the role incentives play in the medical community and how physicians practice and will continue to practice. I am not surprised, because most physicians do not take this in consideration. I am sure you are a brilliant ophthalmologist, but medicine is changing and many physicians are increasing their scope in all areas regardless of "formal training". By law, an ophthalmologist does not need to do a fellowship to call himself/herself a "medical retinologist" or a "neuro-ophthalmologist". You think the average patient will base his/her decision to see a "specialist" based on if they did a fellowship? I am sure the average patient does not even know what a fellowship is. I understand that some ophthalmologists need someone senior to them to "hold there hand" when learning new techniques and information, but this is certainly not the case across the board.

I totally understand that a surgical retina fellowship is still mostly "medical" because like in all specialties, the least invasive approaches are usually exhausted before any surgical approach is taken. The major point I am making is that pretty much all of the fellowship training that involves medical treatment is redundant with a great deal of residency training, so people(NOT EVERYONE) may still go into their desired specialty without a fellowship based on the volume of cases they worked with in residency. The same goes for glaucoma, cornea, peds, EVEN basic ocuplastics procedures. The "15%" or so of difficult surgical cases one sees in a 2 yr retina surgical fellowship will most likely never be learned even close to adequately in a residency.

If you do not think that there is a massive wave of comprehensive ophthalmologists with desires of expanding their scope into the medical retina, medical glaucoma, etc, then you clearly are not aware of your own surroundings. I know you are just goin to say blah blah medical student etc, but you clearly are not aware of how medicine is evolving, and I dont blame you because this was probably not a hot button issue when you were in medical school, but it certainly is today.

Also to the original poster, regardless if why those spots were open, a big issue is that fellowships come at an age where many people take into consideration other factors like spouse, children, comfort etc. Obviously open spots are totally random every year(3 open ophtho residency spots this year, which was unheard of), this year people may not have wanted to move to Miami for a year if they had other personal factors to consider. I have heard of people only doing a fellowship if they can land at a particular program/region, and if they do not end up matching exactly where they wanted, they move on to other things...
 
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Although it is all about comfort level in regards to what an ophthalmologis can and can't do, I understand the value in a fellowship. Many "specialists" never partake in a fellowship and that is just a fact of life. Although, even if the fellowship training, is 99% redundant, having it on your CV may be crucial to landing many jobs. This is a pointless discussion because clearly Visionary you do not understand the economic and business side of medicine and the role incentives play in the medical community and how physicians practice and will continue to practice.

And we are supposed to believe somehow that you, a medical student, have the knowledge base and business acumen to presume to educate the attending audience? Back it up, and I am calling you out, here, or I will say you are an arrogant blowhard who doesn't know what he doesn't know.



I am not surprised, because most physicians do not take this in consideration. I am sure you are a brilliant ophthalmologist, but medicine is changing and many physicians are increasing their scope in all areas regardless of "formal training". By law, an ophthalmologist does not need to do a fellowship to call himself/herself a "medical retinologist" or a "neuro-ophthalmologist".

Do you think that ophthalmologists in academic practice live in a vacuum? Who do you think you are schooling, here?

You think the average patient will base his/her decision to see a "specialist" based on if they did a fellowship? I am sure the average patient does not even know what a fellowship is. I understand that some ophthalmologists need someone senior to them to "hold there hand" when learning new techniques and information, but this is certainly not the case across the board.

It is hold their hand, FYI.

You obviously don't have much patient experience. Patients are more discerning that you appear to appreciate.



I totally understand that a surgical retina fellowship is still mostly "medical" because like in all specialties, the least invasive approaches are usually exhausted before any surgical approach is taken.

That is simply and on its face, not true.

The major point I am making is that pretty much all of the fellowship training that involves medical treatment is redundant with a great deal of residency training, so people(NOT EVERYONE) may still go into their desired specialty without a fellowship based on the volume of cases they worked with in residency.

It depends on what you do and where you are. Since you have not done any residency or a fellowship, I can only assume you are parroting someone else's opinions.

The same goes for glaucoma, cornea, peds, EVEN basic ocuplastics procedures. The "15%" or so of difficult surgical cases one sees in a 2 yr retina surgical fellowship will most likely never be learned even close to adequately in a residency.

Nor would that be the purpose of the residency exposure, unless you were to choose to do a retina surgery fellowshipto follow to have that opportunity to treat the most difficult problems.

If you do not think that there is a massive wave of comprehensive ophthalmologists with desires of expanding their scope into the medical retina, medical glaucoma, etc, then you clearly are not aware of your own surroundings.

And we are to take your word on that?

I know you are just goin to say blah blah medical student etc, but you clearly are not aware of how medicine is evolving, and I dont blame you because this was probably not a hot button issue when you were in medical school, but it certainly is today.

No, I just call you a silly *****.

Also to the original poster, regardless if why those spots were open, a big issue is that fellowships come at an age where many people take into consideration other factors like spouse, children, comfort etc. Obviously open spots are totally random every year(3 open ophtho residency spots this year, which was unheard of), this year people may not have wanted to move to Miami for a year if they had other personal factors to consider. I have heard of people only doing a fellowship if they can land at a particular program/region, and if they do not end up matching exactly where they wanted, they move on to other things...

Why should anyone think you know anything about why anyone would choose fellowships one year and not another? Explain, if you can.

Oh, and post some creds about why you think anyone should take you seriously about your presumed business knowledge. And if those creds don't include an MBA from a top program, then tuck into a bag of shutup, will ya.
 
Actually...

Took two years off from medical school to....GET MY MBA...from a top 10 east coast business school...with extensive formal research on trends in medicine(with emphasis on ophthalmology because thats the field I have wanted to be in since my first year of med school).... clown. Yes some of us are actually well rounded.


You can say I am lying, but anything short of me mailing my degree won't suffice I am sure. I am not surprised by these forums anymore. Most doctors have so little awareness of anything outside medicine....it is what it is....

This forum should be closed, because clearly there are too many physicians too narrow-minded to really understand their own profession inside and out and now it is just people getting too sensitive and insulting each other.
 
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I pray eyeguy15 never has the opportunity to treat anyone I know or any of my family members.

"Top 10 east coast business school" - I would love to see you in the clinic / in surgery....
 
Actually...

Took two years off from medical school to....GET MY MBA...from a top 10 east coast business school...with extensive formal research on trends in medicine(with emphasis on ophthalmology because thats the field I have wanted to be in since my first year of med school).... clown. Yes some of us are actually well rounded.


You can say I am lying, but anything short of me mailing my degree won't suffice I am sure. I am not surprised by these forums anymore. Most doctors have so little awareness of anything outside medicine....it is what it is....

This forum should be closed, because clearly there are too many physicians too narrow-minded to really understand their own profession inside and out and now it is just people getting too sensitive and insulting each other.


You need to calm yourself. There are people on here with a lot more experience than you. No one likes know-it-all personalities.

Next, why did you do your MBA during medical school? Esp if you plan on pursuing residency. You still have 4-6 years of training left. There is such a thing as an expiration date for your MBA. Hence why most intelligent physicians pursue their MBA AFTER they gain some clinical experience.

You already knew that though. Right?
 
There is a fellow where I work at the moment who was at BP last year. He tells me that these retinal fellowships are new and will be based primarily offsite - that probably explains why they're available post-match.
 
People like eyeguy15 make this forum unpleasant to read sometimes. His arrogance and know-it-all personality that invite unnecessary confrontations really seem like a cover-up to mask his insecurities more than anything.

To visionary, orbitsurgmd, and others, I want to say that your posts have been extremely valuable and informative. Thank you, guys, and please continue to share your knowledge and experience with us.
 
Actually...

Took two years off from medical school to....GET MY MBA...from a top 10 east coast business school...with extensive formal research on trends in medicine(with emphasis on ophthalmology because thats the field I have wanted to be in since my first year of med school).... clown. Yes some of us are actually well rounded.


You can say I am lying, but anything short of me mailing my degree won't suffice I am sure. I am not surprised by these forums anymore. Most doctors have so little awareness of anything outside medicine....it is what it is....

This forum should be closed, because clearly there are too many physicians too narrow-minded to really understand their own profession inside and out and now it is just people getting too sensitive and insulting each other.

Well, that explains a lot! No wonder you think you know what you're talking about. I'll clue you in on something: school is not the real world. You're like that stereotypical commanding officer in the war movies who acts like he knows more than the grunts on the ground. He always gets put in his place once he's in the thick of combat.

Despite your so-called expertise in medical trends, you clearly have no understanding of basic concepts, such as practice building, referral patterns, ROI, overhead, or even simple supply and demand. You claim that comprehensive docs will be exploding their practices into all sorts of subspecialty care without realizing that doing so without a proper referral base for those subspecialty services you will not be doing enough volume to justify the equipment/supplies/personnel that are needed. Do you honestly think you can just go hang your shingle and get all sorts of subspecialty cases coming your way? Where are they going to come from? Do you really think they just walk in off the street? You build a practice by establishing a referral base. You say that patients don't know anything about medicine or fellowships. Even if that were true, which it isn't, your referring docs (optometrists, primary care physicians, etc.) sure as heck do!

There is a projected shortage of ophthalmologists, given the aging baby boomers. The comprehensive docs will be drowning in cataracts. Why expand into subspecialty care? They'll do much better focusing on premium IOLs and post-op refractive surgery!

I could give you many examples that work against your claims. For instance, a friend of mine is a retina surgeon in the northern US. He joined a predominantly comprehensive group last year. The docs in that group, because of its location, had been doing upwards of 1000 intravitreal injections per year in co-management with retina specialists an hour+ away, along with numerous lasers. How many do they do now? None. They were more than happy to turn that all over to him, so they could focus on cataracts/refractive. The docs in my group were doing some retinal lasers, but again, they were happy to turn that over. Most of them book out for months in advance just with the comprehensive work.

Yet another level of argument against your claims is that medical knowledge is growing at an incredible pace. It's a challenge to keep current in any specialty. If anything, trends are pointing toward more subspecialization. Why do you think so many residents pursue subspecialty training? They can't all be at crummy residencies, can they? Who wants to be a jack of all trades, master of none? Better to choose one niche and excel at it!

If you review this thread, it pretty obvious your opinions aren't taking hold. Still, you should think about writing a manifesto. You can call it "The Death of Fellowship Training" or maybe "Jack of all Trades." I'd love a signed copy for my office!
 
Here's my main issue with your post. You basically denigrated an entire subspecialty, stating that it's only beneficial for those who didn't have enough exposure in residency. Following your logic, why do we have glaucoma fellowships? I did quite a few trabs and tubes in residency. They weren't that hard (tubes, especially), and I know some comprehensive docs who do them. Why do we have peds fellowships? I did plenty of muscles in residency, and you pretty much aspirate pediatric cataracts. I also know some comprehensive docs who do muscles. I guess the only reason to even do a 2 year surgical retina fellowship is to learn vits and buckles, because most residencies don't give you enough volume. Should be able to do that in a year, though, don't you think? Heck, the actual surgeries aren't that difficult. Why are most surgical fellowships 2 years? Maybe because 85-90% of retina is medical and most of the 1st year of fellowship is medical? You should call around to some of the surgical retina fellowship directors, though, and tell them you would like to just set up a 1 year, purely surgical fellowship, because you will get enough medical retina training in residency. While you're at it, you should really go give a talk at this year's ASRS meeting in Boston to warn the retina community about the coming surplus of retina specialists, because the darn comprehensive docs are scooping up all the medical retina, which is the bulk of their livelihood.

Enough silliness, though. The real point of any fellowship is to obtain advanced training in a subspecialty. It's kind of like learning a foreign language, say Spanish. Residency is like the Spanish classes you take in high school or college. They teach you the core vocabulary and grammar. If you stop there, you can probably get along okay in a Spanish-speaking country. Fellowship is like an immersion course, where you live in a Spanish-speaking country with a host family for a period of time and speak only Spanish. That's how you pick up the intricacies of the language and approach fluency. The final step is practicing on your own, like moving permanently to a Spanish-speaking country. That's when you achieve true fluency. You'll be amazed at how much more you learn, when you're out on your own--no faculty backup, following your own patients on a regular basis. Love this job!

Well put, Visionary. There's a clear difference between finding a community where you're able to incorporate medical retina into your comprehensive ophthalmology practice and successfully improve your bottom line (which, as EyeGuy15 mentions, is possible in some areas - particularly those that are underserved), and with being well-trained in these conditions to provide the best possible patient care. These are entirely different angles from which to view the issue. Having worked with retina fellows and 3rd year residents now at two strong training programs, there's a clear difference in the care they offer medical retina patients. I wouldn't allow my mother to be treated by a comprehensive ophthalmologist for most medical retina issues other than annual DM screenings or early dry AMD checks. I think most comprehensive ophthalmologists would feel similarly (as an aside, I have found that comprehensive ophthalmologists seem to have an even lower threshold in referring their friends and family members for a retinal specialty eval than their standard referral patterns).

Although the eye may seem small and completely graspable from the perspective of a medical student having recently being exposed to the entirety of medicine (tastes of many specialties from OB to Cards to ENT, etc.), it is quite difficult to stay abreast of advances in all areas of ophthalmology, and comprehensive ophthalmologists already have a lot on their plate. Everyone has a different threshold for referrals to retinal specialists and some comp ophs manage many common medical retina conditions quite well. I wholeheartedly agree that you need to see a huge volume of medical retina to understand these processes well and it's quite rare to get that in starting up a comprehensive practice (especially being unmentored). Knowing the literature inside and out is crucial, but is only a part of what you'll need to know.

Knowing people that have recently interviewed for or gone through all of the existing medical retina fellowships...they are not nearly as competitive as surgical fellowships. You can get some sort of surgical fellowship with relative ease (tons of private practice fellowships out there who would love to get someone to help out in clinic), but the top 30 or 40 fellowships are very competitive - especially the top handful. And I'd have to disagree, Visionary, that "actual retinal surgeries aren't that difficult!" 😉
 
Well put, Visionary. There's a clear difference between finding a community where you're able to incorporate medical retina into your comprehensive ophthalmology practice and successfully improve your bottom line (which, as EyeGuy15 mentions, is possible in some areas - particularly those that are underserved), and with being well-trained in these conditions to provide the best possible patient care. These are entirely different angles from which to view the issue. Having worked with retina fellows and 3rd year residents now at two strong training programs, there's a clear difference in the care they offer medical retina patients. I wouldn't allow my mother to be treated by a comprehensive ophthalmologist for most medical retina issues other than annual DM screenings or early dry AMD checks. I think most comprehensive ophthalmologists would feel similarly (as an aside, I have found that comprehensive ophthalmologists seem to have an even lower threshold in referring their friends and family members for a retinal specialty eval than their standard referral patterns).

Although the eye may seem small and completely graspable from the perspective of a medical student having recently being exposed to the entirety of medicine (tastes of many specialties from OB to Cards to ENT, etc.), it is quite difficult to stay abreast of advances in all areas of ophthalmology, and comprehensive ophthalmologists already have a lot on their plate. Everyone has a different threshold for referrals to retinal specialists and some comp ophs manage many common medical retina conditions quite well. I wholeheartedly agree that you need to see a huge volume of medical retina to understand these processes well and it's quite rare to get that in starting up a comprehensive practice (especially being unmentored). Knowing the literature inside and out is crucial, but is only a part of what you'll need to know.

Knowing people that have recently interviewed for or gone through all of the existing medical retina fellowships...they are not nearly as competitive as surgical fellowships. You can get some sort of surgical fellowship with relative ease (tons of private practice fellowships out there who would love to get someone to help out in clinic), but the top 30 or 40 fellowships are very competitive - especially the top handful. And I'd have to disagree, Visionary, that "actual retinal surgeries aren't that difficult!" 😉

Really appreciate your input, PPVx! Oh, and welcome to SDN! That's exactly the point I was trying to make, not only about medical retina, but about all subspecialties to which we get fair exposure during residency.

Regarding the competitiveness of surgical vs medical retina, I completely agree with your breakdown. Honestly, I was basing my point on the pure numbers game--little tongue-in-cheek there. 😀 As you stated, there are many surgical retina opportunities. You're definitely correct, though, in putting the top 30-40 in a different class from the rest. That certainly makes those top fellowships much more competitive, as they are the ones that all the applicants will shoot for. On the other side, far fewer people apply to medical retina primarily. Most apply as backup to surgical (warning: this is usually a real turn-off to the fellowship directors, if they get wind of it). There are typically post-match vacancies in medical fellowships, because the directors would often rather go unmatched and have their pick of the high quality scramble applicants than take sub-par primary applicants. Duke and Bascom, who each have multiple positions, generally have at least one post-match vacancy per year for this very reason. BTW, to Matthius Such, Rosenfeld's Palm Beach fellowship has actually been around for at least four years. It will fill, just wait and see.

PPVx, please don't take offense at my description of retinal surgery. Like any microsurgery, vitreoretinal surgery is, no doubt, difficult. My point was that once you have a good base of cataract surgery, the transition to vits (even moreso buckles) is not a huge leap. The hand-eye coordination is there, so the challenge is adapting to a different procedure. The first vit I did admittedly felt a bit foreign, but I could tell it wouldn't take nearly as long to feel comfortable as it did for cataracts--the first foray into microsurgery.
 
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