Question About Rotations

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xajtx

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Hey All,

I've heard that residencies prefer to see ward based rotations (as opposed to preceptor based) and I was just curious, is it that bad if most of our rotations 3rd year are preceptor based? Is it something that could seriously affect getting our residency of choice? I know that board scores are the most important factor; I was just curious to hear others' opinions. Thanks!
 
Hey All,

I've heard that residencies prefer to see ward based rotations (as opposed to preceptor based) and I was just curious, is it that bad if most of our rotations 3rd year are preceptor based? Is it something that could seriously affect getting our residency of choice? I know that board scores are the most important factor; I was just curious to hear others' opinions. Thanks!

there is some negative impact. My school has had the same problem. Half of our students are at non-teaching hospitals (not quite as bad as preceptors, but similar) and the students who really push themselves get a ton out of it, from hands on experience to attendings who will do them favors. They benefit from it for sure. But the majority of students don't bust their ass and get a decent education, but largely fall through the cracks, miss out on anything they're not enthusiastic about, and don't have the reserved/protected education time that teaching hospitals give.

It's even worse with preceptor based cause there is not (always) a central hospital to give the passive benefits of many different attendings, but it has all the same faults of most students falling through the cracks and/or not getting the meat and potatoes education time.
 
there is some negative impact. My school has had the same problem. Half of our students are at non-teaching hospitals (not quite as bad as preceptors, but similar) and the students who really push themselves get a ton out of it, from hands on experience to attendings who will do them favors. They benefit from it for sure. But the majority of students don't bust their ass and get a decent education, but largely fall through the cracks, miss out on anything they're not enthusiastic about, and don't have the reserved/protected education time that teaching hospitals give.

It's even worse with preceptor based cause there is not (always) a central hospital to give the passive benefits of many different attendings, but it has all the same faults of most students falling through the cracks and/or not getting the meat and potatoes education time.
Thanks for the input! I realize that one has to be very aggressive and super proactive to get the most out of a preceptor based rotation, but what I was wondering had more to do with how much having preceptor based rotations would affect one's ability to obtain their residency of choice.
 
Thanks for the input! I realize that one has to be very aggressive and super proactive to get the most out of a preceptor based rotation, but what I was wondering had more to do with how much having preceptor based rotations would affect one's ability to obtain their residency of choice.

my answer is 100% relevant. Letters of recommendation make or break you, especially in the harder fields. Even the biggest slacker (as long as they don't actively "do bad") can get a LoR from a lot of people at a hospital. And chances are the preceptor, even if you do work enough to earn a good LoR, wont hold half the weight that the 2nd or 3rd guy on the totem pole (so a head of education for a dept, or a dept vice chair) would at any hospital. Getting it from a big name hospital is even better than that.

There are plenty of anecdotes of some residency programs which actively discriminate against preceptor based education, but idk if they are factual or solely anecdotes. I do know that LoRs carry weight and that is a real and tangible way that hospital based education increases the average students odds for any residency out there.
 
my answer is 100% relevant. Letters of recommendation make or break you, especially in the harder fields. Even the biggest slacker (as long as they don't actively "do bad") can get a LoR from a lot of people at a hospital. And chances are the preceptor, even if you do work enough to earn a good LoR, wont hold half the weight that the 2nd or 3rd guy on the totem pole (so a head of education for a dept, or a dept vice chair) would at any hospital. Getting it from a big name hospital is even better than that.

There are plenty of anecdotes of some residency programs which actively discriminate against preceptor based education, but idk if they are factual or solely anecdotes. I do know that LoRs carry weight and that is a real and tangible way that hospital based education increases the average students odds for any residency out there.

So what exactly is the difference in preceptor based and ward based? This may be a completely stupid question, but I've never heard these terms before... 😳
 
Aren't you able to use 4th year electives to get teaching hospital experiences in the specialty you're interested in?
 
Aren't you able to use 4th year electives to get teaching hospital experiences in the specialty you're interested in?

You'll have less than or equal to 4 months (thus only 4 attempts) to garner hospital LoRs if you're all preceptor for the clincal years. This is opposed to 16 months for hospital based. You can only really use july, august, sept and october for LoRs (you can use november for a rotation, but not a LoR) as applications **must** be sent in before november is over as interviews for residency run from october to early december so you wont have time to get a november LoR and sned it out before interview season is over.

I said before, and wish to reaffirm, that there are advantages to preceptor based: you can get an amazing teacher who does teach a lot, but its less likely than not, and you tend to be first assist on surgeries and very hands on, which gives you an honest and impressive advantage on your electives where you can show off your skills.

but it also leaves the knowledge end entirely up to you, and you run the risk of a single bad doc ruining the whole month for you, or simply getting a subpar experience regardless of the docs efforts due to patient flow. A busy month for a doc is still << cases than a slow month for a whole service at a hospital.

I wont sell short that very self-motivated people can make it out of preceptor based with a few solid LoRs in their 3rd year and enough clinical knowledge to make the hands on skills not look like a one trick pony, so they can shine the first 4 monhts of 4th year... but I greatly dislike the month-to-month variability potential and the fact that average-to-below-average motivated students get so little out of it. Maybe I'm biased. IDK.

as for the other guys question: ward based is another term for hospital based. Its probably a more appropriate term as plenty of preceptors are working out of a hospital, or have significant patient load through a hospital. The difference is preceptor-based is you attached to one attending, and perhaps, their PA(s). No other attendings and no residents. It also means no formal education structure. So if you go into a hospital, you're still under this guy. Ward/Hospital-based is the classic way.

My school (touro) offers hospital-based and a mixed preceptor/hospital system as some of our places are non-teaching hospitals that are attempting to switch over to teaching hositals. So they don't have residents, but also don't go full preceptor with our format. Its given me some insight into the preceptor-based model (and I read the 4-6 threads historically on this when I was trying to pick a 3rd year hospital, and the consensus was clear in all but one thread)
 
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