question about the 80/hr week

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bravofleet4

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Hi,

I'm hoping someone who's more familiar with residency will be able to answer this question. I understand that the hours you work from one week to the next vary and it's only 80/hrs averaged over 4 weeks for residency. However, how much time do most residents have to spent outside the hospital doing miscellaneous work that's equally important like studying, reading, and preparing presentations? B/c the way I figure 6 days a week x 14 = 84 hours, but I assume you can't go straight to sleep after your shift. Do residents after their shift have to spend an additional 4-5 hours prepping for tomorrow at home? Why do residents get so little sleep 5-6 hrs?

P.S. 14 hrs/day seems overwhelming enough to me as it is...Plz no comments about how it's only terrible the 1st year. Even if it's just the 1st year I want to know why.

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Do residents after their shift have to spend an additional 4-5 hours prepping for tomorrow at home?

No.

I spend an extra hour reading at home, if I'm lucky and motivated. Doesn't always happen.

P.S. 14 hrs/day seems overwhelming enough to me as it is...Plz no comments about how it's only terrible the 1st year. Even if it's just the 1st year I want to know why.

Actually the first year is the easiest, now that you can't take overnight call as an intern. It just keeps getting worse after that.
 
Hi,

I'm hoping someone who's more familiar with residency will be able to answer this question. I understand that the hours you work from one week to the next vary and it's only 80/hrs averaged over 4 weeks for residency. However, how much time do most residents have to spent outside the hospital doing miscellaneous work that's equally important like studying, reading, and preparing presentations? B/c the way I figure 6 days a week x 14 = 84 hours, but I assume you can't go straight to sleep after your shift. Do residents after their shift have to spend an additional 4-5 hours prepping for tomorrow at home? Why do residents get so little sleep 5-6 hrs?

P.S. 14 hrs/day seems overwhelming enough to me as it is...Plz no comments about how it's only terrible the 1st year. Even if it's just the 1st year I want to know why.

Busy ward services rape your face. There's no studying, no going to the gym, no partying. Those months suck. Trying to stay afloat while you cap every call with social work and nursing home placement closed on the weekends basically blows balls. You do just that (stay afloat, not blow balls).

But then there are those elective weeks, where I am sitting in the call room at 1130 surfing SDN, having seen my one patient, already rounded, waiting around for a consult that will inevitably result in a bronch anyway. These weeks are boring, so are filled with other projects or studying, getting swole at the gym, and filling my belly with beer and pizza.

Most of the time its a balance between ZOMFG RALIENS! (which is overwhelming) and dude, where's my car? (woefully underwhelming). Hopefully you will end up in a program that gives decompression time between busy ward services. If you don't, and roll from one ICU into a WArd, into an ICU, you will burn out, not study, and ultimately fail. Well, you won't fail, since people became doctors when there was no time limit in the hospital, so...

Really, what I want to say is "being a doctor is not a job, it isnt a profession, its a calling."

If your mentality is "i am the most trained professional in the hospital, I have the most responsibility, and, as such, should have the most knowledge and ability" working a lot of hours, spending time outside the hospital preparing and studying, and generally living a grueling life doesn't seem so bad. You are doing it in persuit of mastery of your profession, setting the example for others to follow, and separating yourself from the mid level providers who think they can do your job because they don't really understand what your job is.

If, on the other hand, your mentality is "hey, this doctoring thing is a good gig. Lots of pay and no hard labor, I could do that" then you are in for a rude awakening. If you care about something other than your profession, at this stage of the game (i.e. in training), you might as well have been a PA or APRN, you know? Those ARE good gigs with decent pay and no hard labor. Being a physician is more than a job, its a calling. I have residents I work with who haven't seen their newborn son in four days. Why? ICU. He knows he will, he missed his child, but you know what's more important RIGHT NOW? Patient care, learning medicine, being present (mentally and physically) to take care of the sick, the weak, and the dying, and to be better for the next encounter he has. Whoa, dedication. Some one I actively try to emulate.

Bottom line: you have less time for the rest of your life the farther you head up the ladder. Get used to the idea of long hours, self-motivated studying, and all around compromise for the sake of your profession.

Dismal? I say no. I say that is what separates those physicians who are real doctors from joe blow. I dont want to blow joe, do you? (unless your life partner is named joe, in which case, you probably should)
 
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Even after you go home, there are still emails from clinic patients, clinic notes from last week that you didn't get around to, etc. That all has to get done sometime. Also, discharge reports/dictations when you're a junior, which can take a lot of time.

A lot of residents prep their clinic notes for the next day the night before as well, which I never did because then no-shows make you angry rather than happy.

And if you want to be an academic, then papers and grants need to get written.

Assuming you don't live at the hospital, you have to get to and from there as well. It takes me 15 mins to get to work in the morning, and with traffic in the evening it can take 30-45 mins to get home (Boston). So you leave home at 6:30 to work at 7AM, work all day, sign out at 5pm, which stretches to 6pm by the time everyone is done screwing around, you leave by 6:30 if you're really lucky and don't have much mop-up to do, get home at 7:00pm, make dinner, sit down at 8pm, and either do more work or curl up in a ball until 10pm, then go to bed and do it all again. Sprinkle some call in there and you're all set.

A lot of time just gets swallowed up, particularly towards the end of the work day.
 
My understanding is the 80 hours only applies to in-house- that is hospital/ clinic patient care-related work. So if you are not involved in patient stuff and reading, making a powerpoint, etc; wherever you are physically, that doesnt count. And yes that is 80 hours averaged out per week over the month so if you take a vacation they can use you for 100/week the other 3. The hours pile up taking night call. But when then I trained i averaged 115 hrs per the first six months doing Q2 because of vacations and attrition so 80 hours is NOTHING.
 
Busy ward services rape your face. There's no studying, no going to the gym, no partying. Those months suck. Trying to stay afloat while you cap every call with social work and nursing home placement closed on the weekends basically blows balls. You do just that (stay afloat, not blow balls).

But then there are those elective weeks, where I am sitting in the call room at 1130 surfing SDN, having seen my one patient, already rounded, waiting around for a consult that will inevitably result in a bronch anyway. These weeks are boring, so are filled with other projects or studying, getting swole at the gym, and filling my belly with beer and pizza.

Most of the time its a balance between ZOMFG RALIENS! (which is overwhelming) and dude, where's my car? (woefully underwhelming). Hopefully you will end up in a program that gives decompression time between busy ward services. If you don't, and roll from one ICU into a WArd, into an ICU, you will burn out, not study, and ultimately fail. Well, you won't fail, since people became doctors when there was no time limit in the hospital, so...

Really, what I want to say is "being a doctor is not a job, it isnt a profession, its a calling."

If your mentality is "i am the most trained professional in the hospital, I have the most responsibility, and, as such, should have the most knowledge and ability" working a lot of hours, spending time outside the hospital preparing and studying, and generally living a grueling life doesn't seem so bad. You are doing it in persuit of mastery of your profession, setting the example for others to follow, and separating yourself from the mid level providers who think they can do your job because they don't really understand what your job is.

If, on the other hand, your mentality is "hey, this doctoring thing is a good gig. Lots of pay and no hard labor, I could do that" then you are in for a rude awakening. If you care about something other than your profession, at this stage of the game (i.e. in training), you might as well have been a PA or APRN, you know? Those ARE good gigs with decent pay and no hard labor. Being a physician is more than a job, its a calling. I have residents I work with who haven't seen their newborn son in four days. Why? ICU. He knows he will, he missed his child, but you know what's more important RIGHT NOW? Patient care, learning medicine, being present (mentally and physically) to take care of the sick, the weak, and the dying, and to be better for the next encounter he has. Whoa, dedication. Some one I actively try to emulate.

Bottom line: you have less time for the rest of your life the farther you head up the ladder. Get used to the idea of long hours, self-motivated studying, and all around compromise for the sake of your profession.

Dismal? I say no. I say that is what separates those physicians who are real doctors from joe blow. I dont want to blow joe, do you? (unless your life partner is named joe, in which case, you probably should)

This is awesome. People like you give me hope for the future of medicine in this country. This epitomizes my own beliefs and reason for going into medicine.

Petition to sticky this! Haha.
 
Even after you go home, there are still emails from clinic patients, clinic notes from last week that you didn't get around to, etc. That all has to get done sometime. Also, discharge reports/dictations when you're a junior, which can take a lot of time.

A lot of residents prep their clinic notes for the next day the night before as well, which I never did because then no-shows make you angry rather than happy.

And if you want to be an academic, then papers and grants need to get written.

Assuming you don't live at the hospital, you have to get to and from there as well. It takes me 15 mins to get to work in the morning, and with traffic in the evening it can take 30-45 mins to get home (Boston). So you leave home at 6:30 to work at 7AM, work all day, sign out at 5pm, which stretches to 6pm by the time everyone is done screwing around, you leave by 6:30 if you're really lucky and don't have much mop-up to do, get home at 7:00pm, make dinner, sit down at 8pm, and either do more work or curl up in a ball until 10pm, then go to bed and do it all again. Sprinkle some call in there and you're all set.

A lot of time just gets swallowed up, particularly towards the end of the work day.
7:00 to 5:00 doesn't sound horrible. How do you get up to 80/wk? Is that where the call comes in, or do you pull an all nighter here and there? Sorry, I'm only an MS-2 and still learning a lot about how residency schedules are set up.
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys!

@OveractiveBrain can you tell me what the hours are like during wards and ICU?

@sirenomelia with 7 x 24 = 168 hrs/week. [168 - 115 (hours worked per week) - 24 hrs (1 day off per week average)] = 29 hours for sleep over 6 days which translates to just 4.83 hrs/day MAX. Is this accurate? I'm not doubting your hours just wondering how you slept.

P.S. I'm really just concentrating on sleep. I can accept that outside of my bed all my waking hours will be spent in the hospital. I also recognize that a doctor need to put in the time master his craft. However, for me, I just don't think that I'm going to learn that well putting in really long hours with no chance to get enough sleep to function properly.
 
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Most of the time its a balance between ZOMFG RALIENS! (which is overwhelming) and dude, where's my car? (woefully underwhelming). Hopefully you will end up in a program that gives decompression time between busy ward services. If you don't, and roll from one ICU into a WArd, into an ICU, you will burn out, not study, and ultimately fail. Well, you won't fail, since people became doctors when there was no time limit in the hospital, so...

Or you could do a surgery residency...where EVERY month is the equivalent of a busy IM ward month or ICU month...for 5 years.
 
it depends on the field, but most residencies that approach 80 hrs/wk don't entail a lot of studying/presentation work outside of those 80 hours. my experience as a medicine intern was working 70-80 hours/week for 10 mo out of the year. the other 2 months were consults or outpt and more like 50 hours/week. during the busy ward months, i would spend ~30 minutes average doing presentation work or starting notes for the next day. i'm a derm resident now, which is different... i'm in clinic about 45 hours/wk and study 10-20 hours/wk. it's way better than intern madness, but the home responsibilities are more like med school.
 
FYI you can totally function on 5-6 hours of sleep per night, as long as you get a chance to sleep in a couple times per month.

By the way, once you have to deal with infant rage multiple times per night, you will realize that people can at least get out of bed and sleepwalk through their day with far less than even that.

Also, think of all of this as training for the future. Given the work-hours restrictions, as a PGY-7 I routinely have to spend far more than 80 hours per week in the hospital, and since I am going into clinician-science territory, I also have grants to review, papers to write, and manuscripts to referee, so it's not like the grass always gets greener as you work your way through the system.
 
FYI you can totally function on 5-6 hours of sleep per night, as long as you get a chance to sleep in a couple times per month.

By the way, once you have to deal with infant rage multiple times per night, you will realize that people can at least get out of bed and sleepwalk through their day with far less than even that.

Also, think of all of this as training for the future. Given the work-hours restrictions, as a PGY-7 I routinely have to spend far more than 80 hours per week in the hospital, and since I am going into clinician-science territory, I also have grants to review, papers to write, and manuscripts to referee, so it's not like the grass always gets greener as you work your way through the system.

My (perhaps naive?) hope for the future is that as an attending, I will be working less than 80 hours a week...this post makes me sad
 
My (perhaps naive?) hope for the future is that as an attending, I will be working less than 80 hours a week...this post makes me sad

The work is the work is the work. Off-loading interns (because of work hour regulations) passes the work to residents, who pass the work to fellows, who pass the work to attendings. Attendings have no regulations. But, as an attending, you have many choices, including whether or not you want to be in a position to have work offloaded onto you by housestaff.

The senior cardiologist who was the go-to guy for all the surgeon's pre-op assessments at my institution routinely came in at 5AM before clinic, and stayed until 8PM after clinic to finish up. It made a lot of financial sense, at least until Medicare consultation reimbursements dropped. Then he stopped doing it. We all make choices in life.
 
Also, as a med student, in addition to hospital time, you have to study for the shelf, do presentations, assignments, etc.
 
Also, as a med student, in addition to hospital time, you have to study for the shelf, do presentations, assignments, etc.

Yeah, but since you don't have any real responsibilities, if you have a good intern/resident they'll let you go earlier than them so you can do your studying.

God help you if your resident sucks though. Then it can get rough trying to fit it all in.
 
Thanks for the replies so far guys!


@sirenomelia with 7 x 24 = 168 hrs/week. [168 - 115 (hours worked per week) - 24 hrs (1 day off per week average)] = 29 hours for sleep over 6 days which translates to just 4.83 hrs/day MAX. Is this accurate? I'm not doubting your hours just wondering how you slept.

properly.

There was no one day off per week. I think when I was an intern I got my first day off in the first week of September. There were more housestaff in the hospital and we had fewer services/patients to cover. Some nights on Vascular call you could get 6-7 hours of sleep. Trauma usually little to none. It sucked but we knew all the patients like the back of our hand. Now, night coverage is more spreadout or has a nightfloat and housestaff cover more patients that they dont follow the next day like we did so I dont think they take responsibility for them in the same way.
 
On my surgery rotation the attendings seemed to work just as much as the residents now that work hour restrictions are being enforced. Sometimes even more. Post call the resident can go home. The attending still has surgeries scheduled during the day. I'm fine with the idea of working your ass off during med school and residency, but those types of hours for the rest of your life?
 
On my surgery rotation the attendings seemed to work just as much as the residents now that work hour restrictions are being enforced. Sometimes even more. Post call the resident can go home. The attending still has surgeries scheduled during the day. I'm fine with the idea of working your ass off during med school and residency, but those types of hours for the rest of your life?

At least early in your attending years your hours generally go up dramatically. This is true both because you are the low man on the totem pole of whatever practice group you are in and because your butt is on the line and you are going to be more careful and do more double checking than at any point in your career. I've yet to see a young attending whose hours didn't jump up significantly post-residency.
 
...
@sirenomelia with 7 x 24 = 168 hrs/week. [168 - 115 (hours worked per week) - 24 hrs (1 day off per week average)] = 29 hours for sleep over 6 days which translates to just 4.83 hrs/day MAX. Is this accurate? I'm not doubting your hours just wondering how you slept.
...

it's actually more than 4.83 hours per day because you aren't going to sleep every day. That's the beauty of calls that last 24+ hours.
 
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