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Question about the intersection of APA ethics and personal life.
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In these cases, not much of a gray area. You want to post porn on a tumblr blog, go ahead. Youtube whatever that was, go ahead. Etc etc. Where in the APA ethics code are there problems with this?
Now, the stripper thing on the weekends thing, that could be slightly problematic. More so because your patients could conceivably find out and multiple relationship stuff could go down if they start to frequent your club. Although, I imagine your branding issues would be the larger issue. But anyway, go nuts and have your hobbies, very few would actually (conceivably) intersect with the ethics code.
Now, the stripper thing on the weekends thing, that could be slightly problematic. More so because your patients could conceivably find out and multiple relationship stuff could go down if they start to frequent your club. Although, I imagine your branding issues would be the larger issue. But anyway, go nuts and have your hobbies, very few would actually (conceivably) intersect with the ethics code.
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If you want to be a public person in your spare time, there's nothing stopping you.
In your professional time, there's rules.
The only times the twain shall meet is when you get legal charges or your personal life compromises your ability to do your job effectively. Unless you are in a state that has some clause about judgement, character, or vetting.
If you choose to have a public thing, expect that to be used repeatedly in: therapy/transference, lawsuits, board complaints, etc. You can bet you'll have to explain why talking about adult matters shouldn't be considered evidence of poor judgement.
Don't care how well you explain why it shouldn't be so. It just is.
In your professional time, there's rules.
The only times the twain shall meet is when you get legal charges or your personal life compromises your ability to do your job effectively. Unless you are in a state that has some clause about judgement, character, or vetting.
If you choose to have a public thing, expect that to be used repeatedly in: therapy/transference, lawsuits, board complaints, etc. You can bet you'll have to explain why talking about adult matters shouldn't be considered evidence of poor judgement.
Don't care how well you explain why it shouldn't be so. It just is.
I just want to echo some of the points other people have made. So, yeah technically there may be a divide between what you do with your personal/professional time; however, what you do in your personal life can most definitely affect your professional existence. My judgment compass tells me not to do anything (especially online) that could reasonably call my credibility as a professional into question. Taking poll dancing for exercise or vlogging about trashy romance novels isn't really a big deal (at least for me). I'd think twice about participating in anything pornographic online.
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I agree. This would not be appropriate in the professional realm of things for most practicing clinicans IMO. Also, out of respect to these individuals, the correct term is "adult entertainers," rather than "stripper," which is slang. But, I'm an army of one trying to get everyone to call them adult entertainers and not "strippers" (and perhaps too PC)
I knew of one woman who attended a clinical psych doctoral program and was an adult entertainer on the side. I lost contact with her, but I'm sure at some point she had to give up the 'adult entertaining' for licensing reasons.
I wanted to find the particular APA ethics code that it may be at odds with, and found this gem. Seems like SDN has already addressed this: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...ers-mental-health-counselor-stripper.1053187/
To the OP, I'm sure the blog (albeit under a pseudonym, much like we do for social media fun) and the pole dancing lessons would be okay (I also knew one of my friends who took pole dancing lessons for exercise during doctoral training, and she loved it!). I think you'd run into the same ethical dilemma as working out at a gym around your clients/patients (just assume not - too awkward). Adult entertaining is just too...well, sexualized. And unless you are a sex surrogate therapist, I think regular 'ole clinical and counseling psychologists/therapists separate those activities from personal lives, and keep those topics exclusively in the therapy room, with the focus only on the patient (unless it is contraindicated to discuss the transference, like in transference-focused therapies).
Totally curious to hear others opinions, though.
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Thanks for posting - that thread is a gem.
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deleted343839
I know a former stripper/exotic dancer/adult entertainer who is now a licensed psychologist, but is much more insightful and ethical than the OP from that thread. She left that line of work behind when she started her training.
Instead of searching the ethics code for "why not?" I think sometimes we need to lean on our better judgment. There are careers that are probably incompatible with one another. Any form of sex work (including adult entertainment or any other work intended to provoke sexual arousal or stimulation) is probably not compatible with professional psychology. Blogging about sexual topics is OK - plenty of sex therapists do - but the content and tone need to fit with your professional judgment.
I'm of the opinion that psychologists, like physicians, peace officers, teachers, members of the clergy, and other professionals, have a higher responsibility of personal conduct than the average citizen. We can do things that are challenging and even controversial, but I don't think we are free to turn a blind eye to how we are perceived in the public eye, nor to deliberately put our personal and professional identities into conflict.
Though I think sex surrogacy can be therapeutic for properly vetted patients, it would still be a one-way ticket to licensure revocation for a psychologist.
Instead of searching the ethics code for "why not?" I think sometimes we need to lean on our better judgment. There are careers that are probably incompatible with one another. Any form of sex work (including adult entertainment or any other work intended to provoke sexual arousal or stimulation) is probably not compatible with professional psychology. Blogging about sexual topics is OK - plenty of sex therapists do - but the content and tone need to fit with your professional judgment.
I'm of the opinion that psychologists, like physicians, peace officers, teachers, members of the clergy, and other professionals, have a higher responsibility of personal conduct than the average citizen. We can do things that are challenging and even controversial, but I don't think we are free to turn a blind eye to how we are perceived in the public eye, nor to deliberately put our personal and professional identities into conflict.
Though I think sex surrogacy can be therapeutic for properly vetted patients, it would still be a one-way ticket to licensure revocation for a psychologist.
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Some training programs (and some full time jobs, for that matter) have rules about having outside employment, which might explicitly prohibit you from a side job as an adult entertainer, and/or require you to receive permission from your training program director in order to continue with said outside employment.
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Given the concern that you may run into clients in your line of work and thus damage the therapeutic relationships, there is quite a bit more grayness depending on your living situation. For example, if you treat clients in the Bronx, but strip in Manhattan, the odds of clients running into you are quite low, suggesting low-enough risk to possibly be acceptable. On the other hand, if you live in a small town with only one strip club, there is no conceivable way that your side-job will go unnoticed. I recently interviewed at an internship site in a remote rural area. It's a town of under 10,000, and there is only one bar. As an unofficial rule, interns and staff psychologists are discouraged from ever going to the bar, unless it's a happy hour for the entire office. Basically, anywhere you go, you run into clients or their families. As such, there is no feasible space for you to not be a professional, so getting buzzed in public is almost always out.
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I mean, you can still do it, but I'd make sure to have some killer liability insurance for what will inevitably be challenges to your license. Also, you may have a shortage of referring providers in some settings.
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Hmmm. Tell me more about that.
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Well, I guys. I think I am getting kicked out of school. for anyone that is interested i am a youtube personality that kinda has a sexy persona. my fans can donate to my channel and they can get a sexy picture of me. so now I am going to be kicked out of school.
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Whoredom and the practice of professional psychology do not belong together.
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On the contrary. Some of the more prolific plaintiff "experts" I have seen in professional forensic settings whored out their integrity long ago. Also, stripping and prostitution are two different things. At least in the eyes of those not blinded by the church 🙂
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Well, I was more referring to her solicitation of money from strangers for "adult" pictures in her last post. That's an act of whoredom, and I don't think its consistent with living a life of mental health. Not advisable for a psychologist even if its not expicitly addressed by the current APA ethics code.
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deleted343839
Well, that wrapped up pretty quickly.
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Did you offer any compromises like to take down the website? I find it odd that they just kicked you out without any negotiation.
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Let's hold our (wild) horses here. Is it [doctoral studies] over? Is there no remediation, @myfuzzypen?!? Can you disable your YouTube account, and be done with it immediately? Seriously, I'm talking quitting [adult entertainment blogging] cold turkey (if it's what you want: Current lifestyle vs. Future career goal?)?
Agreed. 100%
The use of "whoredom" has a negative connotation that is not helpful here, erg923. Who are you to shame her or any other person who will behave in these manners that you may not deem for yourself or those close to you?
Whoever decides to pursue adult entertaining (or exotic dancing, as MamaPhD so aptly added) is just that...an ADULT (consensual decisions and ramifications included). This is why some states have licensing requirements and most of these establishments have age limits for their patrons and entertainers. (Did I mention one of my former roommates in college was also an adult entertainer? Well, she was...so I have greater insight into the perspective of the entertainer, as well as their judgments on those who engage in these behaviors on the solicitation side. I could write paragraphs on what the folks on stage think about the persons sitting in the peanut gallery.)
Regardless, all that my SDN mind cares about (besides my cheeky response of "tell me more") is that the OP may be in jeopardy of being dismissed.
Back to @myfuzzypen, APA may not have explicit codes to cite that may support or chastise you, but if you peruse that old thread (in my previous response), the bottom line that comes into question is your judgment as a mature adult (again, not saying entertainers are not "mature," but their cost/benefit ratio is different than a licensed mental health professional) and 'image,' as well as social standing in the community are recognized factors. *Think* exhibition, voyeurism, masochism, sadism may all be fun & games (especially if you're getting rewards, monetary gains and such), but there is so much more to it....and that is why, IMO, it is not consistent with professionalism, conservatism...especially when you learn more about the trade of 'doctoring.' Anecdotally, I have always heard of stories of people doing "wild & crazy things" during graduate school, but never really subsisting into the actual career because of the dissonance.
Best bet is to go to your doctoral school manual (each one has to have a manual if it is an APA approved program). Each program uses this manual as their bible (no pun intended), so your program will cite your program's codes if you truly violated any, by this discovery. If you want to send me a PM, maybe we can speak more frankly.
I wanted my doctoral training badly enough to make some serious sacrifices to myself and others around me, I could not imagine getting accepted to a doctoral program, starting it, and letting it all go (for reasons other than not being able to fulfill the academic requirements and/or handle the training).
Good luck!
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deleted106747
"whoredom" ha ha ha really?
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I didn't call anyone a nasty name. I labeled the behavior (which is true by the common definition of the term and not particularly desirable for a public professional, i think we all agree). some people disagreed with the definition. Relax.
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Are we in the 18th Century, for crying out loud?!?
***** has a negative connotation, there, Bud. Much better fitting if you found out your wife, sister, or mom was an "adult entertainer," rather than a "*****"...practicing "whoredom," yes? God forbid...but stretching the imagination to make a point of empathy, without shame. That's my point. Geezz.
I'm relaxed, now.
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This is/was a commonly used term for such behavior in my culture. "Adult entertainers" enage in whoredom. This is not widely accepted or advised where i come from. Sorry.
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My culture, too. Damn...you'd be stoned for shaming your family and have all your hair cut-off until you were bald, if it was discovered. But, that's so yesterday. I want to be much more progressive in thought than those ideals that were harmful and reductionistic, especially in this century. I still hold my own personal ideals, but I learned a lot from that roommate (who my family never knew what she did) and came to recognize her agency (in what I now know was a non-judgmental stance).
Apology accepted. 😎
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A lot of choices are hard. It's narcissistic to think that one will be exempt from general consequences for a behavior.
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How did your program find out about this?
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How far along in your program are you? If you've still got a couple of years left, that's ample time to double down and impress. I wouldn't automatically assume this means you'll never get a good letter of rec. If you decide to continue focusing on psych as your career and are willing to frame it as a lapse in judgement that you continued this into grad school but as also an important learning point at this early juncture of your career, I think you can easily get past this. Just get through the talking-tos, being mindful to keep humility and avoid defensiveness in those conversations, and take the questions raised above in this forum to heart for careful consideration (about how what you do on your own time *can* conceivably have a significant negative impact on clients/reputation/career, so make choices and maintain boundaries accordingly). I think you can get through this OK though, if that's the path you choose.
Seriously though, how did they find out? Given your previous reservations as I assumed from your initial post, I assume you were trying to keep it on the DL around the school crowd.
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deleted343839
It sounds like you are feeling shame and experiencing the natural impulse to flee the situation. This is totally understandable, but try hard to resist that urge to burn it all down. It's not going to feel better if you walk away.
I've known people who were dismissed from their programs, and people who overcame obstacles to their progress. People get dismissed outright when the faculty don't see a way to rectify a problem. If your program faculty are offering to work with you, they see the situation as something that can be turned around. I don't think most people would invest the time and effort if they didn't see real potential for a good outcome. It's going to be challenging for a while. But it's not an insurmountable challenge. There is something to be gained here.
I'm wondering how much you would love this if no money changed hands. Identify the real problem here -- is it loss of income or is it estrangement from an activity that is intrinsically satisfying?
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deleted106747
oh I'm plenty relaxed. I think your use of that term is kind of hilarious is all.
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Jenna Marbles has a masters in psych from BC and makes more money than any of us. 😉
I don't see why a student couldn't be a fashion blogger, comedy blogger, etc., and have a page, even if some of the content/humor is PG-13. I'm confused about the nature of this channel though, which initially sounded like it was a highly sexual thing with offers to send photos (how else do people know they can get a photo from you, if you're not advertising it....?) and now it's being presented as just "stupid videos online."
I don't see why a student couldn't be a fashion blogger, comedy blogger, etc., and have a page, even if some of the content/humor is PG-13. I'm confused about the nature of this channel though, which initially sounded like it was a highly sexual thing with offers to send photos (how else do people know they can get a photo from you, if you're not advertising it....?) and now it's being presented as just "stupid videos online."
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I'm confused too. How does a "pretty tame" channel with "nothing adult" also include selling what sounds like pornographic photos?
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If patients can get sexy photos of us online for a fee, that would be a problem for a variety of reasons. Sexualized transference and counter-transference is very real and addressing it in a healthy way can be a key aspect of providing effective treatment. Many of my patients have been sexually victimized in various ways and have significant conflictual feelings around this. The general rule of thumb to provide safe effective treatment is to have very clear boundaries and a solid therapeutic frame. I don't think it is so much about right or wrong as it is about having a clear role. The OP clearly has a choice to make.
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I think this is the problem in a nutshell. In this field it's generally good to be aware of the information about yourself that is out there for public consumption, because it can impact therapeutic relationships. Not to say that we can't have personal lives and interests, but we also have to be careful about limiting others' access (as much as possible) to aspects of ourselves and our lives. This is especially true of information that ends up online, just because once it's out there you have no control over who has it or how it's used. It's the reason that I keep my social media profiles on lockdown in addition to being careful about what I post. And especially once we're licensed and getting established in our careers, it's important to manage the way that we're perceived by others who might be considered hiring us, seeing us for therapy, etc.
OP, it sounds like your online activities (youtube channel, etc.) are incompatible with the expectations of your grad program. Even if this hadn't gotten onto their radar now, I don't think that selling pics is a good idea. If you're doing this all online, you have no way of knowing who your customers are or whether they have your best interests at heart. Whatever people are paying $1000 to see may resurface at some point down the road, when keeping it private may matter more to you than it does right now.
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Threw a little kink it (no pun intended), yes. Eff'd it up, no, not by a long shot.
Sounds like your program is quite willing to work with you, which as others have stated, means they see this as a surmountable issue. Seems like you've decided which path to pursue and are committed to it, so my guess is that by this time next year absolutely no one will be thinking about it. And, since the worry has floated through your mind about recommendation letters in the future, you can always have a conversation with your adviser/letter writer beforehand about that, but I know someone who made some poorly considered choices early on in grad school, but ameliorated the situation and the adviser framed it as a positive without actually mentioning the incident, e.g., "very open to feedback/takes feedback well and puts it into practice" which is an important quality for a trainee in general to have, so there's that. So to paraphrase one of my favorite Saves the Day songs, don't let the despair ravage you, just take your rudder and aim your ship and keep on moving forward, and you can make it through just fine. 🙂
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Is your YouTube channel still up? If not, I would recommend deleting your channel as well as your donation page. You want to demonstrate to your program that you're taking their concerns seriously, and addressing the donations page without taking down the channel seems insufficient to me. Having a small following seems like even more reason to discontinue your channel - for now it may not be a big deal for you to have videos out there that (presumably) include aspects of yourself and your personal life that you wouldn't necessarily share with patients, but you may feel differently later in your training. Don't worry about the videos that you've already put out there (converting those videos to downloadable files is very easy - I would assume that at least one viewer has them stored somewhere), but just focus on moving forward!
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It sounds to me like you're working through this, but I'd suggest you drop this. A. it was going to be found out eventually anyway, and B. this really is a thing that they were right to bring to the faculty. Just having a silly youtube page isn't, but clearly you were advertising something relatively close to pornography. You also have no control over what happens to those photos once you send them.
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"Sexy poses with cleavage" is adult content. I think maybe you're using the word "adult" to refer to sexually explicit pornography, whereas in this context it's just used to refer to anything of an intentionally sexual nature.
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Pssh, prudes.
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I would reframe this as you have learned how to market an aspect of yourself successfully and although most psychologists would likely agree that this type of marketing is incompatible with the professional practice of psychology, it still bodes well for your future prospects in the field. Physical attractiveness is a positive attribute and you apparently have some solid interpersonal skills or charisma along with that. Learn to draw some very solid boundaries around overt sexualizing and maintaining a solid professional stance and focus on your continued development and training as a doctoral student in psychology.
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Update for those who care:
1. Meeting went so well. I was genuinely impressed with my program director and adviser's response.
2. I was honest with what has been going on in my life and they validated my need to feel wanted and sexual. They just encouraged me to find ways that would not impede on my professional life.
3. I did tell them that I was struggling and that I am now on medications and seeing someone.
4. They wanted to support me and see me succeed.
5. And to my surprise, they didn't tell me to "stop living a life of whoredom" 😉 (lol its just funny since I am clearly from such a different generation than most of the people in this chat. I spent half the time explaining to my program director what twitch, discord, and snapchat were).
Thanks everyone! I did edit my comments because I, as am sure you know, dont want this to be identifiable to me. See!!! I have already learned something! 😉
Wish me luck out there!
1. Meeting went so well. I was genuinely impressed with my program director and adviser's response.
2. I was honest with what has been going on in my life and they validated my need to feel wanted and sexual. They just encouraged me to find ways that would not impede on my professional life.
3. I did tell them that I was struggling and that I am now on medications and seeing someone.
4. They wanted to support me and see me succeed.
5. And to my surprise, they didn't tell me to "stop living a life of whoredom" 😉 (lol its just funny since I am clearly from such a different generation than most of the people in this chat. I spent half the time explaining to my program director what twitch, discord, and snapchat were).
Thanks everyone! I did edit my comments because I, as am sure you know, dont want this to be identifiable to me. See!!! I have already learned something! 😉
Wish me luck out there!
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Darn, I guess that means we won't see any of the pics now! In all seriousness, I am glad that it went well for you and it will be great to chalk it all up as a learning experience. The whole life of whoredom thing reminds me of something that would make a good Monty Python sketch (which is also from a much older generation😛). I can see it though, a bunch of grizzled old psychologists wearing puritan outfits yelling profanities at the poor young student. "Cast the trollop with her evil Snapchat into the pit!!!"
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that's fantastic!! Thanks so much for taking the time to provide us with an update. I'm so glad it went well. Clearly they care about you and also think that you have the potential to be an asset to the field. Glad to hear also you're taking proactive steps to take care of yourself- that can be a hard lesson to learn sometimes, and it's better to learn it sooner rather than later. 🙂 I wish you the very best of luck, both with developing and pursuing your career, and with the rest of life also!!
Also, I really appreciate the monty python references, guys! 😉
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Oh, you're a twitch streamer! Glad things went well.
