Question for "aprogdirector"

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ygmd1980

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Hi,

I'm an IMG applying this year.
During my last year (6 year program) I basically spent all the time in the hospital doing core rotations, something similar to the Transitional year, from your experience do you think I should mention that under "Experience" in ERAS? or is the MSPE enough?

Thank You,
 
Hi,

I'm an IMG applying this year.
During my last year (6 year program) I basically spent all the time in the hospital doing core rotations, something similar to the Transitional year, from your experience do you think I should mention that under "Experience" in ERAS? or is the MSPE enough?

Thank You,

This is exactly what American medical students do - spend their last year doing clinical rotations.

The question of listing medical school rotations as "clinical experience" has been argued here before. The consensus was that it does not count.
 
This is exactly what American medical students do - spend their last year doing clinical rotations.

The question of listing medical school rotations as "clinical experience" has been argued here before. The consensus was that it does not count.

Debatable. IMGs spent last year of medical school doing an internship (repeating basic core rotations at the level of a sub-intern/PGY1), sometimes adding up to 4-6 months of Surgery, OB/GYN, Medicine and Pediatrics. On top of that, some of us have dedicated extra-hours concentrating on some sub-specialties.

On the other side, you should know that American residency programs don't care about your level of clinical exposure. I'll recommend to list clerkships/Sub-Is that you were able to do in the U.S.
 
Debatable. IMGs spent last year of medical school doing an internship (repeating basic core rotations at the level of a sub-intern/PGY1), sometimes adding up to 4-6 months of Surgery, OB/GYN, Medicine and Pediatrics. On top of that, some of us have dedicated extra-hours concentrating on some sub-specialties.

As an IMG myself, I am well aware of that. The point is that unless you were working in the capacity as a physician (ie, out of medical school), these core rotations are not considered to be any different in the eyes of US medical school faculty than what US students do.

It does no good to debate that you are doing more or functioning as a sub-I or intern level or have dedicated yourself to a subspecialty because:

1) most US medical students are doing sub-I rotations as well; many have required sub-Is in Medicine and Surgery;
2) the point of medical school is NOT to concentrate on a subspecialty; as a matter of fact, it can be looked down upon if you spend most of your final year doing the specialty you are applying to in the US. The conventional wisdom is that your goal is to be a well rounded physician.

On the other side, you should know that American residency programs don't care about your level of clinical exposure. I'll recommend to list clerkships/Sub-Is that you were able to do in the U.S.

What they often don't care about is clinical exposure in foreign countries. Having seen what passes as clinical exposure in other countries, I can tell you that the perception is that it is more of an apprenticeship or observership with Herr Professor than it is actual hands on clinical exposure. Right or not, the perception exists and no one cares unless you were actually working as a physician in a certain specialty.

Most foreign students I've worked with in the US are wonderful diagnosticians but have little to no relevant hands-on skills, especially when it comes to procedures. That may be my biased experience, but the autonomy and responsibility offered US students appears to be much greater than it is for foreign students. You only need to read SDN to see that there are foreign final year students coming to the US who have no idea how to write a note, place a catheter, present on rounds, etc. This is obviously school dependent and your program may be different but I have seen this time and time again - IRL and on SDN. The good news is that most of this stuff can be picked up relatively rapidly during US internship.

Many US programs REQUIRE a certain number of months of US clinical exposure for applicants.
 
The question is basically already answered. Some countries / medical schools include an "intern like" year as part of medical school. How to list this on ERAS is debatable. It can be listed as an Experience. I have seen some people list it as an internship (which I would not recommend). Some list each rotation as an experience, also not really a good idea IMHO. How much PD's will "Care" about this is also debatable. As mentioned, US based rotations should be emphasized on your application.
 
Thank you both winged Scapula and aProgDirector,

As I have only 1 Month of USCE, I was wondering if writing my other rotations would help, but I understand that it will be futile so I will refrain from that.

and I agree that most IMG's, including myself are lacking in the clinical aspect.
offcourse it depends on the different school, and even more on where you had your rotations. from what I saw on my rotation in the US is that MS3 and MS4 have a much more structured program and allow the students more experience when it comes to 'hands on".

But like you said it yourself: We have a very good knowledge base, and the gap can be filled quickly in the internship, and I think it's better to lack something which can be learned in a month, then to lack the foundations and knowledge that took us 6 year to absorb...
 
In my home country the doctors place the IVs, draw blood etc. Therefore as a student you are expected to make rounds every morning, draw blood from all patients and place all IVs during the day.So, during med school I have done that up to 10-20 a day/5day a week over 6 years of med school.
In my country we don't have RT, pharmacist on rounds, sonograms techs and all the other specialties so we (studentens and doctors) are actually the ones that do all that. I doubt that many doctors in the US learn doing actually sonograms in residency that we learn to certain point in medical school. I have a done lots of hands on experience. Our med school is set up differently. We are expected to work like a doctor since school is for free.

Agree!
 
I would totally disagree with that. I have 6 months of US clinical experience all of which is in the field I am applying to and most of it as in ICU setting. I noticed while many US medical students were pretty book smart a bunch of the ones I met did not know how to properly examine a patient and most have never placed an IV or draw blood in their life. Even the US doctors (and nurses) I worked with told me that I was better than many interns they had. In my home country the doctors place the IVs, draw blood etc. Therefore as a student you are expected to make rounds every morning, draw blood from all patients and place all IVs during the day.So, during med school I have done that up to 10-20 a day/5day a week over 6 years of med school...more than most US physicians can claim after finishing even residency. In my country we don't have RT, pharmacist on rounds, sonograms techs and all the other specialties so we (studentens and doctors) are actually the ones that do all that. I doubt that many doctors in the US learn doing actually sonograms in residency that we learn to certain point in medical school. I have a done lots of hands on experience. Our med school is set up differently. We are expected to work like a doctor since school is for free. In the US I noticed that some (not all!) med school are kinda seeing themself in the role of the paying customer, they are more int he observing position than actually being required to "put hand on". Surely it might be different from school to school. But in general I noticed that in the US, med school has the goal to teach their students mostly to pass the Steps (they have good book knowledge) than the hands on experience.
I don't want to generalize but that's just what I have noticed during my rotations.

We all have different experiences.

However, when I was discussing clinical and procedural skills I was specifically NOT talking about starting IVs and drawing blood. I agree that US students are not taught this as much as they used to be but you can ask whether or not this is a skill that is necessary in this day and age of superspecialization (ie, where there is an "IV team", a "PICC team", etc. - rhetorical question because of course it is a good skill to have lest one find themselves in NYC where the nurses *don't* do these things). In 6 years of medical school, you perhaps have time to learn these skills but I don't know whether knowing how to perform a sonogram is a valuable skill for anyone outside of GS, FM, EM and OBG (in general). Just because you are taught something doesn't necessarily mean that it is a valid use of your time.

Nor did I say that American students were better clinically (as a matter of fact, I also bemoan the attitude of many that because they have paid X amount of tuition dollars they should be able to decide when, where, and the how of their education and not do things they don't care for); as a matter of fact, many FMGs are better clinically as they are taught the art of being a diagnostician (which I mentioned in my earlier post).

I was specifically talking about higher level things like central lines, chest tubes, suturing and presenting patients, writing notes, ordering studies, etc. I have found that these are frequently skills that IMGs/FMGs do not possess.

But as I noted, YMMV and this is not an argument about who is better but a recognition that US faculty don't really care about foreign clinical rotations because they cannot assess the quality and level of responsibility of those rotations.
 
oops, n/m
 
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I 100% agree with Drmed2009....plus isn't it contradictory, if nobody seems to be interesed in our clerkships, but they would actually show that we HAD all the hands-on experience, that we DID present patients during rounds, in the US or at home, that we actually performed all these procedures, we are supposely not doing in our home country...?!

AND I really don't know, where else I am supposed to talk about the clerkships.
In my transcripts they are barely mentioned, and in my MSPE only a few are picked out, mainly the ones in the US and not very detailed...

I actually believe the amount of clinical experience is what makes us stand out, and I really don't think that one can compare a intense 4 months rotation in surgery for example to the couple of weeks american MS4's usually get....

So I really don't know what I should do now, just take em all out but then where am I supposed to talk about all the experience I had, in my PS, I don't think that's the right place, it will make it sound like a resumee...

Plus if I refere to them in my PS, nobody will know what I am talking about, since they are not really listed anywhere...?!

I am confused...?!
 
I actually believe the amount of clinical experience is what makes us stand out, and I really don't think that one can compare a intense 4 months rotation in surgery for example to the couple of weeks american MS4's usually get....

Just to disabuse you of this notion, US students get 2-4 months of surgery (school dependent) experience as MS3s and MS4s.
 
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