Question for DOs/STEP

[futureemdoc91]

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Hey all,

I'm an ms3 preparing to apply in the summer. I didn't take step 1 so I was wondering for anyone who didn't who still applied acgme about how many interviews to expect? Should I take step 2 without step 1? Probably somewhere in the middle of my class, H/HP on clinicals so far, above national average for comlex. Average Ec's.

Thanks! Would love to hear any advice.

 

[MackandBlues]

You really need step 1 to apply for ACGME. All the programs I've been looking at require step 1 and 2


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[futureemdoc91]

You really need step 1 to apply for ACGME. All the programs I've been looking at require step 1 and 2


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I know it is required frequently, my question is for applicants who applied without it and how the interview season has panned out. I'm not going back to take it now.

 

[canigetawhatwhat]

I had a friend who matched in a competitive program without usmle.

He did an away there.

He also didnt get much love from outside this program in the acgme programs.


Great doctor though

 

[Apollyon]

I had a friend who matched in a competitive program without usmle.

He did an away there.

He also didnt get much love from outside this program in the acgme programs.


Great doctor though

For some reason, when I read this post, in my mind, it sounded like a haiku.

 

[OnlyOneZlatan]

Anecdotally, there are a few that I know who had only taken Step 2, blew it out of the water, and matched at places they rotated at

 

[Katalysticfish]

I'm a DO applicant this cycle. I didn't take the USMLE 1 or 2, did poor on COMLEX I (440's), and had much improvement on II (590's). I had 1 great SLOE from big MD program (though only a P I was told on numerous occasions that it was very good), one EM letter from a PD (DO), and one gen surg letter. 3 other auditions (1 MD, 1 newly ACGME/former AOA, and one DO [home rotation]). I had poor grades MS1-2 and almost all honors MS3 (2 HP). I ended up with 11 interviews in the MD match and dropped out of the DO match pretty early. I feel like taking step I would have gotten me more interviews, but I didn't feel like Step II without I would have done me any good as most programs that I didn't hear from required Step I.

I was super anxious going into interview season given my lack of Steps and poor comlex I. I hustled my ass off on auditions and talking to PDs/APDs/residents at EMRA/ACEP/etc conferences and fairs, which got me at least a couple interviews. I only applied to historically DO-friendly programs and focused on the North East, but was still very broad with applications.

There is hope without USMLEs, but you definitely have to work you ass off on auditions and networking and play your cards well. Hope this helps!

 

[Thought Crime Spree]

You should absolutely take step 2 and try your hardest to do very well. You are at a disadvantage without step 1, you should use this as motivation to work harder for step 2 and to kill it on your auditions. When it comes time to apply you will want to apply broadly. EM is competitive and virtually every DO applying to ACGME EM residencies will have both steps on their application.

 

[futureemdoc91]

I'm a DO applicant this cycle. I didn't take the USMLE 1 or 2, did poor on COMLEX I (440's), and had much improvement on II (590's). I had 1 great SLOE from big MD program (though only a P I was told on numerous occasions that it was very good), one EM letter from a PD (DO), and one gen surg letter. 3 other auditions (1 MD, 1 newly ACGME/former AOA, and one DO [home rotation]). I had poor grades MS1-2 and almost all honors MS3 (2 HP). I ended up with 11 interviews in the MD match and dropped out of the DO match pretty early. I feel like taking step I would have gotten me more interviews, but I didn't feel like Step II without I would have done me any good as most programs that I didn't hear from required Step I.

I was super anxious going into interview season given my lack of Steps and poor comlex I. I hustled my ass off on auditions and talking to PDs/APDs/residents at EMRA/ACEP/etc conferences and fairs, which got me at least a couple interviews. I only applied to historically DO-friendly programs and focused on the North East, but was still very broad with applications.

There is hope without USMLEs, but you definitely have to work you ass off on auditions and networking and play your cards well. Hope this helps!

Thank you so much! I appreciate it!

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Hey all,

I'm an ms3 preparing to apply in the summer. I didn't take step 1 so I was wondering for anyone who didn't who still applied acgme about how many interviews to expect? Should I take step 2 without step 1? Probably somewhere in the middle of my class, H/HP on clinicals so far, above national average for comlex. Average Ec's.

Thanks! Would love to hear any advice.

You might want to consider taking step 1 if you're still eligible.

I accidentally purchased/started a step 1 nbme during my step 2 practice and was surprised how much easier the questions were than what I remembered.

If you manage to get an average step 1/good step 2 you'd be in a good position.

You could at least try one nbme and see how it goes.

 

[futureemdoc91]

You might want to consider taking step 1 if you're still eligible.

I accidentally purchased/started a step 1 nbme during my step 2 practice and was surprised how much easier the questions were than what I remembered.

If you manage to get an average step 1/good step 2 you'd be in a good position.

You could at least try one nbme and see how it goes.

My advisor said it would not be overly helpful to go back and take step 1 now and was unsure of the benefit of taking solely step 2. That's why I was hoping to get real life advice from students who had not taken either step or just step 2 and how many interviews they received to try and estimate a range of my chances. Thank you though!

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

My advisor said it would not be overly helpful to go back and take step 1 now and was unsure of the benefit of taking solely step 2. That's why I was hoping to get real life advice from students who had not taken either step or just step 2 and how many interviews they received to try and estimate a range of my chances. Thank you though!

It might be worthwhile to get a second opinion from someone at an allopathic program. The folks at western Michigan are generally open to advising students from any medical school iirc. Your call though, best of luck

 

[Rekt]

My advisor said it would not be overly helpful to go back and take step 1 now and was unsure of the benefit of taking solely step 2. That's why I was hoping to get real life advice from students who had not taken either step or just step 2 and how many interviews they received to try and estimate a range of my chances. Thank you though!

We recently had a Q&A with a ACGME PD and this question came up. He recommended taking Step 2 at least. It might open some closed doors, but not all of them.

 

[futureemdoc91]

Thanks everyone! your answers are really helpful. Hopefully some DOs will chime in before/after the match that didn't take step 1 and still got some interviews. BOL to everyone matching next month!

 

[Aonyx]

I am a DO who took both the USMLE and COMLEX and did really well on both. I applied ACGME. There were a few times that scores came up in my interviews and the interviewer always talked about the USMLE, and not the COMLEX. Someone even thanked me for taking the USMLE because it took the guesswork out of it for them.

Is it possible to get lots of Interviews with just the COMLEX? I'm sure it is.

But with already being somewhat at a disadvantage as a DO applicant for the Allopathic world, why would I create another disadvantage for myself?

I'm not saying this to criticize you or any other people who only take the COMLEX, but more to try and help people reading this thread. I took the USMLE Step 1 two days before the COMLEX and Step 2 one day before the COMLEX. I felt ready for both tests. Aside from a little OMM review and the amount of time it actually takes to take the test, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't just take both. Yes there is a significant cost and no my parents didn't pay for it...but we're talking about your future career. Unless you absolutely know you wanna go the DO route, I would definitely recommend taking the USMLE.

 

[futureemdoc91]

I am a DO who took both the USMLE and COMLEX and did really well on both. I applied ACGME. There were a few times that scores came up in my interviews and the interviewer always talked about the USMLE, and not the COMLEX. Someone even thanked me for taking the USMLE because it took the guesswork out of it for them.

Is it possible to get lots of Interviews with just the COMLEX? I'm sure it is.

But with already being somewhat at a disadvantage as a DO applicant for the Allopathic world, why would I create another disadvantage for myself?

I'm not saying this to criticize you or any other people who only take the COMLEX, but more to try and help people reading this thread. I took the USMLE Step 1 two days before the COMLEX and Step 2 one day before the COMLEX. I felt ready for both tests. Aside from a little OMM review and the amount of time it actually takes to take the test, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't just take both. Yes there is a significant cost and no my parents didn't pay for it...but we're talking about your future career. Unless you absolutely know you wanna go the DO route, I would definitely recommend taking the USMLE.

I know all of this, my intent was to hear from DO applicants who have applied without either step or with solely step 2 to gauge a rough idea of how many interviews were received and if there is a range to expect. Did they receive 3? 4? 5? Just want to know what I'm working with.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

My advisor said it would not be overly helpful to go back and take step 1 now and was unsure of the benefit of taking solely step 2. That's why I was hoping to get real life advice from students who had not taken either step or just step 2 and how many interviews they received to try and estimate a range of my chances. Thank you though!

That doesn't make any sense. You haven't applied yet so why wouldn't it be helpful to have a Step 1 score in your ERAS application?

Furthermore, while you can get interviews without a step 1 score, many programs require one simply to apply for aways, never mind for interviews. I remember looking on VSAS last year and a considerable number of programs had an explicitly stated USMLE cutoff for offering students rotation spots since they're so hard to get, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot on this one.

 

[futureemdoc91]

That doesn't make any sense. You haven't applied yet so why wouldn't it be helpful to have a Step 1 score in your ERAS application?

Furthermore, while you can get interviews without a step 1 score, many programs require one simply to apply for aways, never mind for interviews. I remember looking on VSAS last year and a considerable number of programs had an explicitly stated USMLE cutoff for offering students rotation spots since they're so hard to get, so you might be shooting yourself in the foot on this one.

Of course it would be helpful to have it, but my advisor's point (and I think 99% would agree if they actually thought about it) is that I'm half way through third year with back to back rotations and level 2 and shelf exams and visas and eras coming up. There is not the appropriate set of time to set aside and study for step 1, digging up biochem etc from my 1st year memory to take it now.

This is why my question is asking for DO students who have applied w/o step 1 and +/- step 2. This isn't meant to be an argument of whether or not step 1 is needed. I know it's needed. I know programs require it. I know it sucks to not have it and I should have taken it. What's done is done. I'm hoping for advice from students in my situation.

Again, super appreciative of everyone taking the time and energy to answer me.

 

[doggydog]

Wait, so let me get this straight, you are looking for advice from people that applied without step one and plus or minus step two?

 

[deleted245139]

I know all of this, my intent was to hear from DO applicants who have applied without either step or with solely step 2 to gauge a rough idea of how many interviews were received and if there is a range to expect. Did they receive 3? 4? 5? Just want to know what I'm working with.

I graduated 2013, finished residency 2016.
I took only usmle 2.
20 or 25 invites or so, went to 13.
Some competitive locations.

Would I do it the same way? No.

I'm sure I limited myself. The app climate has only gotten tighter. I'm faculty at an acgme prog and I see the race tighten each yr.
I'd say you need step 1. Both preferably

 

[futureemdoc91]

Wait, so let me get this straight, you are looking for advice from people that applied without step one and plus or minus step two?

Sensing sarcasm, but yes.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I graduated 2013, finished residency 2016.
I took only usmle 2.
20 or 25 invites or so, went to 13.
Some competitive locations.

Would I do it the same way? No.

I'm sure I limited myself. The app climate has only gotten tighter. I'm faculty at an acgme prog and I see the race tighten each yr.
I'd say you need step 1. Both preferably

Yeah. I mean when you consider that the average Step 1 score for EM has gone up 10 points in the last 4 years, and is now higher than the national average it just doesn't really make much sense to apply without one anymore

 

[futureemdoc91]

Now that we are post match, anyone with any experience or anecdotal experience from classmates?

 

[EM2Be2017]

What you will have to do is check out the individual websites and/or FREIDA database to see if the programs you are looking at will take COMLEX instead of USMLE. The vast majority in my experience will not. These are ACGME residencies, they expect you to take the USMLE's if you are serious in matching. I'm sure it's possible to match, and maybe there are still a decent number of programs that will consider COMLEX only, but you are significantly stacking the cards against yourself. From what I understand, most DO students that plan on applying ACGME take both Steps, so what you have to ask yourself is why would these programs decide to interview you over these applicants who have test scores the programs are familiar with. And unfair or not, you not having any Step score could make the program question how motivated you really are.

You really should take Step 2 when you take COMLEX II, you are already studying the material and from what I've heard the tests are rather similar in content at least. Not taking step 2 would honestly be foolish. I agree at this point taking step 1 may not be a great idea because you are probably more likely to do worse, not better, than your COMLEX I since you aren't going to be able to take off 4-5 weeks of dedicated study time. And you still need to reach out to programs you are interested in and see if they will take COMLEX I instead of Step 1.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I personally am against making students take two standardized exams, for several reasons. One they are expensive, and students are already strapped for cash. Two, the two exams have a linear correlation, and you can extrapolate a COMLEX score to a USMLE score within reason. Three, board scores aren't that critical in the application that you need to know the difference between someone who scores a 250 vs a 240 vs a 230. So I can't ever foresee a time where we'd require USMLE scores for DO students at my program.

However I also recognize this is not the predominant opinion. Places that are less DO friendly are absolutely going to require a USMLE score. Then again, those places are less DO friendly, so match chances there are less anyways. Places that don't require USMLE are likely to be the most DO friendly when it comes to matching DO's. If you want to have the widest number of options, I think students should take both exams so as not to shut the door on some opportunities they may want. But I also wouldn't give up and just accept a fate of not matching EM because you didn't take Step 1 either, because there are plenty of DO friendly EM residencies out there.

 

[Petypet]

Anecdotally I know 1 person out of 14 or 15 EM matches from my class that matched to an ACGME (MD) program without a STEP exam. He had multiple factors, think URM, etc that helped. I know a heck of a lot more that got low single digit interviews to ACGME places with no steps, and a few more that got 7-8 with both STEPS. Anecdotally and objectively the odds are not in favor without at least 1 step.