question for OD's and OD students

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optometry06

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I am going to attend IU SOO in the fall, and i am aware of the "war" brewing between opticians and optometrists, that opticians want rights to refract. What possible implications could happen to optometrists if rights are given to opticians?? A friend recently sugested that our profession has only about 20yrs for survival, and i am very concerned about this? Any possible insight on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

***please respond seriously on this matter***

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optometry06 said:
"... A friend recently sugested that our profession has only about 20yrs for survival, and i am very concerned about this? Any possible insight on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

***please respond seriously on this matter***


optometry06,

There are many new avenues that optometry has started towards which may dilute the optician factor. Certainly, if an optometrist is focused on selling glasses and contact lenses, then there would be a problem. Patients like "one-stop" shopping which optometrists are more readily able to give than opticians.

Some directions:
1. TBI vestibular rehabilitation within an interdisciplinary team
2. Behavioral/developmental vision
3. Difficult to fit contact lenses
4. Pre and post surgical evaluations
5. Disease surveillance and management.

The above is some of the one-stop shopping which opticians won't be able to provide in the forseeable feature.
 
optometry06 said:
I am going to attend IU SOO in the fall, and i am aware of the "war" brewing between opticians and optometrists, that opticians want rights to refract. What possible implications could happen to optometrists if rights are given to opticians?? A friend recently sugested that our profession has only about 20yrs for survival, and i am very concerned about this? Any possible insight on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

***please respond seriously on this matter***

Every branch of the medical field sees itself as facing major upcoming battles (ODs and MDs, ODs and opticians, MDs and CRNAs, MDs and DPMs). Optometry has been around for a long time, its not going anywhere, and I don't forsee any massive changes like this going on.
As a general rule, state OD societies tend to be well organized. That in itself will prove a major obstacle to refracting opticians. Also, in the one positive I can see with our sue-happy culture.... if opticians DO refract, sooner or later one of them is going to refract a patient to 20/20 while some pathology is brewing (glaucoma can sneak up on you). When that patient eventually does go to an OD or an MD, they are going to say "We could've saved more of your vision if we'd caught this sooner.... why didn't you get regular eye exams?" This will lead to lawsuits galore and cause this issue to come into the public eye.
I wouldn't worry about the future of optometry with respect to refracting opticians.
 
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optometry06 said:
I am going to attend IU SOO in the fall, and i am aware of the "war" brewing between opticians and optometrists, that opticians want rights to refract. What possible implications could happen to optometrists if rights are given to opticians?? A friend recently sugested that our profession has only about 20yrs for survival, and i am very concerned about this? Any possible insight on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

***please respond seriously on this matter***

I have posted my opinion on here before. That opinion is that optometry will not cease to exist. However, I believe that the future of optometry is very much like that of pharmacy. You will see most ODs working retail hours in retail locations. The "independant optometrist" will be about as common as the independant pharmacist.

I do not agree with another poster who suggest pre and post surgical fits and "hard to fit" contact lens cases. I worked in an office that was staffed by two diplomates of the academy in contact lenses. Our office was the "go to place" for contact lenses for about 50 miles in any direction. We saw maybe one of these "hard to fit" patient every 3 months. Contrary to what the journals will tell you, there is not a huge unmet demand for bitoric RGP bifocals that you can charge hundreds of dollars.

Developmental vision is a good option...disease management less so. Again, all in my opinion.
 
what does your friend do? if he/she thinks opts are only capable of refraction, its a good time to educate them! spread the word, and campaign for optometry one step at a time!

and i agree with KHE, given the current trend we will all end up at walmart. however, i really believe if we can get the opt community to change then our fate will be different. how to achieve that change...is yet another question

fight on!
 
my friend is a pessimistic 1st year opt student.
 
optometry06 said:
my friend is a pessimistic 1st year opt student.

:eek: This is much more scary that opticians refracting... why is a 1st year opt student already pessimistic?? A trend like this spells disaster more than anything else. My views about the profession are very optomistic... but then again.. why shouldn't they be. Why would I want to committe my self to something that I dont fully believe in and support. I think your friend is already heading down the wrong path...

Opticians will not refract for the same reason Pharmacy Techs cant despense medication.
 
optometry06 said:
I am going to attend IU SOO in the fall, and i am aware of the "war" brewing between opticians and optometrists, that opticians want rights to refract. What possible implications could happen to optometrists if rights are given to opticians?? A friend recently sugested that our profession has only about 20yrs for survival, and i am very concerned about this? Any possible insight on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

***please respond seriously on this matter***

Theres no "war". It's all hype from forums like this.
 
Hines302 said:
:eek: This is much more scary that opticians refracting... why is a 1st year opt student already pessimistic?? A trend like this spells disaster more than anything else. My views about the profession are very optomistic... but then again.. why shouldn't they be. Why would I want to committe my self to something that I dont fully believe in and support. I think your friend is already heading down the wrong path...

Opticians will not refract for the same reason Pharmacy Techs cant despense medication.

Pharmacy techs can dispense meds in my state
 
not without a pharmacist
 
Does one need a college degree to practice as an optician?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
http://www.opt.indiana.edu/programs/opttech/courses.htm#curr

Looks like its an associate's degree, if I read this right.

only in some states. For most you barely need a high school diploma. It depends. Some states are more strict on whether someone can work as either a "sales associate" or an "optician". one's licensed and one isn't.

states have different rules about how many non-licensed people you can have on the floor per licensed person.
 
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cpw said:
only in some states. For most you barely need a high school diploma. It depends. Some states are more strict on whether someone can work as either a "sales associate" or an "optician". one's licensed and one isn't.

states have different rules about how many non-licensed people you can have on the floor per licensed person.

Are most ODs opposed to this change within an optician's scope of practice? It might actually be a good thing in that it would lead to increased medicalization for ODs (e.g., more medical-type power).
 
ProZackMI said:
Are most ODs opposed to this change within an optician's scope of practice? It might actually be a good thing in that it would lead to increased medicalization for ODs (e.g., more medical-type power).

good point. most ODs arent to worried about that much medical-type power (note the word most - obviously there are exceptions). most just want to be the primary eye care person - red eyes, refractions, glaucoma, etc, and when major surgery is needed, send them to their OMD.
in reality, refracting opticians probably wouldnt change things (even though i doubt they would obtain these privilidges). right now our field is so full of sellouts who work commercial and lower the perception of our services that maybe getting them out and replaced with opticians might not hurt. and then when lawsuits start coming in and laws are changed back, ODs will have bargaining power to not work corporate. naturally, the cycle will then resume, whereby a sellout here and there decides to go commercial and the gradual comprimise of our services resumes. if opticians were allowed to refract, OD institutions would have to come around and decrease their class sizes. dentistry did this several years back, and look at how financially rewarding it is to be a dentist. ophthalmology residencies are cutting back on numbers. apparantly everyone but us in optometry know how to plan for the future.
 
one more note.
regarding ODs and OMDs - the most successful eye care groups in my region are multispecialty groups. i think the future will hold (regardless of how this optician thing works out) more of this type of practice. newer ODs have an exceptional grasp on ocular pathology, and also know when to refer to the OMD. these multispecialty groups allow the ODs and OMDs to work less and make more money; each is doing what they do best -ODs with primary eye care, OMDs with consultation based eye care/surgery.
 
drgregory said:
good point. most ODs arent to worried about that much medical-type power (note the word most - obviously there are exceptions). most just want to be the primary eye care person - red eyes, refractions, glaucoma, etc, and when major surgery is needed, send them to their OMD.
in reality, refracting opticians probably wouldnt change things (even though i doubt they would obtain these privilidges). right now our field is so full of sellouts who work commercial and lower the perception of our services that maybe getting them out and replaced with opticians might not hurt. and then when lawsuits start coming in and laws are changed back, ODs will have bargaining power to not work corporate. naturally, the cycle will then resume, whereby a sellout here and there decides to go commercial and the gradual comprimise of our services resumes. if opticians were allowed to refract, OD institutions would have to come around and decrease their class sizes. dentistry did this several years back, and look at how financially rewarding it is to be a dentist. ophthalmology residencies are cutting back on numbers. apparantly everyone but us in optometry know how to plan for the future.

Good points. One result of this change in scope for opticians might be that their educational programs would change like yours did. Originally, OD programs, from what I understand, included little, if any pharm, but now it seems that you guys receive a fair amount of pharm training while in school. So, using this example, maybe it's logical to infer to that opticians will increase their educational requirements similar to what ODs did.

As the opticians begin to refract CL, ODs might move more into the primary care realm and fill the void of fewer OMDs and poorly trained FMGs who wouldn't know conjunctivitis from iritis. So, while some ODs might think this change is not good, your options might just change. The world of health care is an ever changing one, so this might open more doors for you guys. If you continue to push for more changes in your professional curriculum, you might end up being more like DPMs and dentists.

I mean, if you think about it, a DPM is a full range physician/surgeon that is restricted to practice on the foot, below the ankle. In all states, DPMs have pretty liberal RxPs, hospital privis, and authorized to perform a wide range of surgeries on the foot/ankle. Dentists share similar restrictions to the oral cavity and non MD oral-maxillofacial surgeons (some are MD, some DDS, and some MD-DDS) are considered physicians/surgeons in all states with almost unlimited medical authority, including RxPs in all schedules, hospital admit d/c privis, etc.

Following that logic, if ODs adjusted their OD program to include more med and less refraction, you might eventually become the ONLY vision specialist (physician and surgeon). It's a thought. Many PsyD/PhD psychologists are trying to compel the APA to create drastic reforms in the education of clinical psychologists (who have RxP and hospital privis in some states) to convert from a standard research PhD (filled with non-clinical coursework such as stats, research methods, etc.) to a more clinical DCP or PsyD degree that includes the basic medical sciences, pharm, neuroanatomy, physical assessment, etc.

It's entirely possible that with time and continued reform, ODs would gain the status and financial independence that many DDSs and DPMs enjoy. If this occurs, you guys would eventually replace OMDs and become the only eye doctors, and in a similar fashion, the PsyDs would eventually replace the psychiatrists as the only full service mental health medical professional, although this is less likely. If you think about it, dentists and podiatrists both had their roots in allopathic med. Today, there are NO physicians who treat dental disease; it's all done by dentists. Some orthos treat orthopedic foot problems and some endocrinologists and internists treat diabetic foot problems, but by and large, most foot tx is performed by pods. If ODs undergo more medicalized professional training, and less refraction, they might wind up with a much broader scope of practice.

Of course, if this did happen, the AMA would resist, but would lose. Also, it would mean that optometry would change from being optometry to optometric medicine (similar to dental medicine and podiatric medicine). Many ODs might not like this change. It would enhance your status, but change the occupation. The days of Wal-mart/retail practice would be long gone, however.

Just some food for thought.
 
You can blather on and on about "sellouts" and "commercial optometry" as much as you want. If commercial optometry suddenly disappeared tomorrow, the publics perception of optometry is not likely to substantially change because a large (VERY large) number of so called "private optometry practices" are essentially optical stores with exam lanes in the back and they still make the overwhelming majority of their revenue from the retailing of glasses and contact lenses.

Can anyone out there honestly say that a "private practice" in a strip mall in between a nail salon and a pizzeria projects a more positive image of the optometric profession than a Lenscrafters in an upscale mall?

There are just as many "sell outs" in private practice as commerical practice. In fact, I would say that there are even MORE. They are the reason that we even have commercial practices in the first place.


drgregory said:
good point. most ODs arent to worried about that much medical-type power (note the word most - obviously there are exceptions). most just want to be the primary eye care person - red eyes, refractions, glaucoma, etc, and when major surgery is needed, send them to their OMD.
in reality, refracting opticians probably wouldnt change things (even though i doubt they would obtain these privilidges). right now our field is so full of sellouts who work commercial and lower the perception of our services that maybe getting them out and replaced with opticians might not hurt. and then when lawsuits start coming in and laws are changed back, ODs will have bargaining power to not work corporate. naturally, the cycle will then resume, whereby a sellout here and there decides to go commercial and the gradual comprimise of our services resumes. if opticians were allowed to refract, OD institutions would have to come around and decrease their class sizes. dentistry did this several years back, and look at how financially rewarding it is to be a dentist. ophthalmology residencies are cutting back on numbers. apparantly everyone but us in optometry know how to plan for the future.
 
ProZackMI said:
Good points. One result of this change in scope for opticians might be that their educational programs would change like yours did. Originally, OD programs, from what I understand, included little, if any pharm, but now it seems that you guys receive a fair amount of pharm training while in school. So, using this example, maybe it's logical to infer to that opticians will increase their educational requirements similar to what ODs did.

As the opticians begin to refract CL, ODs might move more into the primary care realm and fill the void of fewer OMDs and poorly trained FMGs who wouldn't know conjunctivitis from iritis. So, while some ODs might think this change is not good, your options might just change. The world of health care is an ever changing one, so this might open more doors for you guys. If you continue to push for more changes in your professional curriculum, you might end up being more like DPMs and dentists.

I mean, if you think about it, a DPM is a full range physician/surgeon that is restricted to practice on the foot, below the ankle. In all states, DPMs have pretty liberal RxPs, hospital privis, and authorized to perform a wide range of surgeries on the foot/ankle. Dentists share similar restrictions to the oral cavity and non MD oral-maxillofacial surgeons (some are MD, some DDS, and some MD-DDS) are considered physicians/surgeons in all states with almost unlimited medical authority, including RxPs in all schedules, hospital admit d/c privis, etc.

Following that logic, if ODs adjusted their OD program to include more med and less refraction, you might eventually become the ONLY vision specialist (physician and surgeon). It's a thought. Many PsyD/PhD psychologists are trying to compel the APA to create drastic reforms in the education of clinical psychologists (who have RxP and hospital privis in some states) to convert from a standard research PhD (filled with non-clinical coursework such as stats, research methods, etc.) to a more clinical DCP or PsyD degree that includes the basic medical sciences, pharm, neuroanatomy, physical assessment, etc.

It's entirely possible that with time and continued reform, ODs would gain the status and financial independence that many DDSs and DPMs enjoy. If this occurs, you guys would eventually replace OMDs and become the only eye doctors, and in a similar fashion, the PsyDs would eventually replace the psychiatrists as the only full service mental health medical professional, although this is less likely. If you think about it, dentists and podiatrists both had their roots in allopathic med. Today, there are NO physicians who treat dental disease; it's all done by dentists. Some orthos treat orthopedic foot problems and some endocrinologists and internists treat diabetic foot problems, but by and large, most foot tx is performed by pods. If ODs undergo more medicalized professional training, and less refraction, they might wind up with a much broader scope of practice.

Of course, if this did happen, the AMA would resist, but would lose. Also, it would mean that optometry would change from being optometry to optometric medicine (similar to dental medicine and podiatric medicine). Many ODs might not like this change. It would enhance your status, but change the occupation. The days of Wal-mart/retail practice would be long gone, however.

Just some food for thought.

essentially, this would probably be best for the profession. the key, as you noted, would involve drastically increasing the amount of systemic medicine training and increasing obviously surgical training in optometry programs. a year of surgical residency after graduation with the OD degree would have to be a requirement (at minimum). Problem is, there is that lag time between production of medicosurgical trained optometrists and regular optometrists, and as you noted, revolt from OMDs would ensue. There are too many excellent OMDs who would become somewhat of a dying breed. Sure, they could practice during this reform, but when and how would OMD residencies start decreasing acceptance and shriveling up? this is a sensitive subject. i'm trying not to be biased when chewing on this "food for thought". the biggest problem i see, is again that lag time. right now, optometrists are in no way major eye surgeons. simple as that. certification for ODs to become eye surgeons would have to be a national certification. so for a few years, or even decades, there would be a spectrum of ODs ranging from "Dr. Walmart" to new graduate of optometric medicine. but, as you correctly pointed out, there would be no Dr. Walmart any more, so that wouldnt be an issue. wow, this is some chewy food for thought.
on the other hand, if i were a residency/fellowship trained OMD, i'd naturally be bitter. the training that these physicians undergo is intense, long, and costly. all of the sudden being a dinosaur would anger me. that is why i think if this change in scope were to happen, having a one year surgical residency for all ODs, and then followed by another year of fellowship would be the most prudent.
who knows.
 
KHE said:
You can blather on and on about "sellouts" and "commercial optometry" as much as you want. If commercial optometry suddenly disappeared tomorrow, the publics perception of optometry is not likely to substantially change because a large (VERY large) number of so called "private optometry practices" are essentially optical stores with exam lanes in the back and they still make the overwhelming majority of their revenue from the retailing of glasses and contact lenses.

Can anyone out there honestly say that a "private practice" in a strip mall in between a nail salon and a pizzeria projects a more positive image of the optometric profession than a Lenscrafters in an upscale mall?

There are just as many "sell outs" in private practice as commerical practice. In fact, I would say that there are even MORE. They are the reason that we even have commercial practices in the first place.

as a whole, optometry would like to purge itself of any sellout - private or commercial - at least our image with other health care providers would then improve.
 
KHE said:
You can blather on and on about "sellouts" and "commercial optometry" as much as you want. If commercial optometry suddenly disappeared tomorrow, the publics perception of optometry is not likely to substantially change because a large (VERY large) number of so called "private optometry practices" are essentially optical stores with exam lanes in the back and they still make the overwhelming majority of their revenue from the retailing of glasses and contact lenses.

Can anyone out there honestly say that a "private practice" in a strip mall in between a nail salon and a pizzeria projects a more positive image of the optometric profession than a Lenscrafters in an upscale mall?

There are just as many "sell outs" in private practice as commerical practice. In fact, I would say that there are even MORE. They are the reason that we even have commercial practices in the first place.

Amen!!! Where were all the private practice docs when these new grads were looking for jobs? Yes, yes... I know... start your own practice... but that can only work for so many new grads. Many need to find associate jobs in private practices, but they just aren't there! I loathe commercial optometry... but I think that it is only a fraction of the problems facing optometry. Optometrists seem to be unable to refer to each other, work in groups, and unite as a whole for issues like national licensure and reciprocity. I would like to stand up and proudly declare that I will NEVER work commerical optometry... but until I've been turned down for loan after loan to start up a business because of my sky high student debt, been unable to find an decent associate job, have mouths in my family to feed and that first $2000+ loan payment coming up, I will not declare that and I will not refer to those in commercial optometry as "sellouts". What I can do is spend a lot of time pouring over the comments of those much wiser than me on places like this forum, ODWire, and POP for the next four years, and hope that I can create a job for myself or find one out there in the world when the time comes.
 
drgregory said:
as a whole, optometry would like to purge itself of any sellout - private or commercial - at least our image with other health care providers would then improve.

I understand what you are thinking, but I do not agree.

Optometry's image with other health care providers will not improve until we start working alongside them during their training years and they learn that optometrists are competent providers and are a viable referal option.

How many medical students encounter optometry students or even optometry staff members during their time in medical school? I would bet less than one tenth of one percent.

Yet they will encounter dental and podiatry students or staff members.

How many optometry students work with disciplines other than ophthalmolgy during their training? Again, a very very small number. Maybe a few neurologists here and there.

That's the problem.
 
i never thought the roles will be reversed and i will say this: if one wants to do eye surgery....go to medical school. opt school is to train to be a primary eye provider and not a backdoor to an opth residency, so i guess ill be one of those "unhappy" opts if that plan goes through

i do hope for a more medical approach or simply new laws that allow optometrist to practice what they are trained for. however, i have no problem with refraction. not that i want to only do refractions all day, but its optometry's history and future to be involved in refraction.
 
prettygreeneyes said:
Amen!!! Where were all the private practice docs when these new grads were looking for jobs? Yes, yes... I know... start your own practice... but that can only work for so many new grads. Many need to find associate jobs in private practices, but they just aren't there! I loathe commercial optometry... but I think that it is only a fraction of the problems facing optometry. Optometrists seem to be unable to refer to each other, work in groups, and unite as a whole for issues like national licensure and reciprocity. I would like to stand up and proudly declare that I will NEVER work commerical optometry... but until I've been turned down for loan after loan to start up a business because of my sky high student debt, been unable to find an decent associate job, have mouths in my family to feed and that first $2000+ loan payment coming up, I will not declare that and I will not refer to those in commercial optometry as "sellouts". What I can do is spend a lot of time pouring over the comments of those much wiser than me on places like this forum, ODWire, and POP for the next four years, and hope that I can create a job for myself or find one out there in the world when the time comes.

This is a great post! I am right there with you!
 
still_confused said:
i never thought the roles will be reversed and i will say this: if one wants to do eye surgery....go to medical school. opt school is to train to be a primary eye provider and not a backdoor to an opth residency, so i guess ill be one of those "unhappy" opts if that plan goes through

i do hope for a more medical approach or simply new laws that allow optometrist to practice what they are trained for. however, i have no problem with refraction. not that i want to only do refractions all day, but its optometry's history and future to be involved in refraction.

A agree with this. I don't think OD's should do surgery... nor do i think it will ever happen.

Although I hope that one day OD's across the nation will all be able to practice under a unified scope that allows us to practice up to our potential.

In an ideal situation.. i see OMD's more as surgeons. and OD's treating more disease. (maybe there would be your basic OD for refraction purposes... and other OD's who go through additional training to specialize in more ocular disease??)
 
Hines302 said:
In an ideal situation.. i see OMD's more as surgeons. and OD's treating more disease. (maybe there would be your basic OD for refraction purposes... and other OD's who go through additional training to specialize in more ocular disease??)

this would be the most appropriate model, and it has begun to happen, a little. it is, however, hindered by our own profession. who wants to go to lenscrafters to get their glaucoma treated? if i were a patient, i wouldnt. id go to the private office, and i wouldnt want to see the same type of doctor who works in a place like lenscrafters, even if that doctor could easily manage my glaucoma. so, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
and to KHE - the same goes for private offices who try to sell everyone a pair of glasses - red eyes, glaucoma visits, etc. i agree with you - they are in fact no better than Dr. Walmart or Dr. Lenscrafters.
 
I agree. This is why those doctors who had specialized training in Ocular Dx would work in private offices (or with OMD's). While OD's without this specialized training could work private as well... but would most likely work commercial. OD's with specialized training would not work commercial at all.

In addition these specialized training residencies should be very limited in number and reserved for only the brightest and most motivated 4th year opt students.
 
Thanks everyone for your comments, it really puts things into prospective!
 
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