Question for university-based PsyD students

[Student4Life0]

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Hi all,

This question is specifically for students at university based PsyD programs, or anybody who is able to answer the question. I would prefer that this thread does not turn into a discussion about finances and PhD vs PsyD, because I am very well informed on that front. I have applied to both funded PhD, funded PsyD, and unfunded university-based programs for Fall 2011. I would prefer a funded program, and am unsure if I will even attend an unfunded program. I am starting to wonder about the debt, and am becoming worried. I would like to hear from somebody that has been in this situation. So here is my specific question: is it reasonable/easy to get some sort of payed job or assistantship while in these programs? Let's take Widener for example. I applied to Widener, and it seems to be a very solid program, although sadly unfunded. I believe the program is aprox. $25,000/year tuition. I assume that I would need at least another $25,000/year for living expenses, possibly more if I am living right in Philly. So that means that I am taking out $50,000/year for what..4 years? Plus the $55,000 of debt that I already have from my masters degree? This is just not feasible. If I know that I am able to find a part time job or get an assistantship through the school to help cover cost of living expenses, this is not as bad. Although I know I would still be finishing with school with something like $150,000 debt. Very scary...but not as scary as $250,000.

So how do you PsyD students do it? Do you work part time? Have some of you already gone in with the debt of a masters degree?

 

[DrGero]

Hi all,

This question is specifically for students at university based PsyD programs, or anybody who is able to answer the question. I would prefer that this thread does not turn into a discussion about finances and PhD vs PsyD, because I am very well informed on that front. I have applied to both funded PhD, funded PsyD, and unfunded university-based programs for Fall 2011. I would prefer a funded program, and am unsure if I will even attend an unfunded program. I am starting to wonder about the debt, and am becoming worried. I would like to hear from somebody that has been in this situation. So here is my specific question: is it reasonable/easy to get some sort of payed job or assistantship while in these programs? Let's take Widener for example. I applied to Widener, and it seems to be a very solid program, although sadly unfunded. I believe the program is aprox. $25,000/year tuition. I assume that I would need at least another $25,000/year for living expenses, possibly more if I am living right in Philly. So that means that I am taking out $50,000/year for what..4 years? Plus the $55,000 of debt that I already have from my masters degree? This is just not feasible. If I know that I am able to find a part time job or get an assistantship through the school to help cover cost of living expenses, this is not as bad. Although I know I would still be finishing with school with something like $150,000 debt. Very scary...but not as scary as $250,000.

So how do you PsyD students do it? Do you work part time? Have some of you already gone in with the debt of a masters degree?

For perspective, I'm 37, I graduated seven years ago with about 160K of debt, all of which came from my unfunded program (I was fortunate to have come out of college with no debt). I've currently chipped it down to around 120K and my interest rate is 1.8 percent, which makes for a monthly payment that is manageable, but definitely dearly missed since I now have two young children at home and live in the California Bay Area where everything costs $$$$.

I worked throughout my grad school experience, one year was as a TA which paid about 20K for the year, the other years I worked part-time doing various counselling-type gigs. However, as I worked I continued to max out my loans and generally economized very poorly - I think I generally wasn't emotionally dealing with the amount of debt I was getting into at the time and just didn't even think about what I was spending. In retrospect, I could have spent less and taken out less loans and maybe shaved off another 30K from that figure, give or take. So, I think something can be said for trying to be as careful as possible about the debt you're accruing, even if you end up in an unfunded "professional" program. Also goes to show that there is such a big emotional side to financial decisions.

Also probably good to have an immediate plan for getting it repaid - what I would do is get a public-sector job ASAP immediately on graduation, consolidate your loans through the federal government and get on the income-contingent program, and right away get yourself started on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. That way, say, if you get out of school by the time you're in your early 30s, you could be debt-free by your 40s.... nice thought, huh?

 

[Student4Life0]

For perspective, I'm 37, I graduated seven years ago with about 160K of debt, all of which came from my unfunded program (I was fortunate to have come out of college with no debt). I've currently chipped it down to around 120K and my interest rate is 1.8 percent, which makes for a monthly payment that is manageable, but definitely dearly missed since I now have two young children at home and live in the California Bay Area where everything costs $$$$.

I worked throughout my grad school experience, one year was as a TA which paid about 20K for the year, the other years I worked part-time doing various counselling-type gigs. However, as I worked I continued to max out my loans and generally economized very poorly - I think I generally wasn't emotionally dealing with the amount of debt I was getting into at the time and just didn't even think about what I was spending. In retrospect, I could have spent less and taken out less loans and maybe shaved off another 30K from that figure, give or take. So, I think something can be said for trying to be as careful as possible about the debt you're accruing, even if you end up in an unfunded "professional" program. Also goes to show that there is such a big emotional side to financial decisions.

Also probably good to have an immediate plan for getting it repaid - what I would do is get a public-sector job ASAP immediately on graduation, consolidate your loans through the federal government and get on the income-contingent program, and right away get yourself started on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. That way, say, if you get out of school by the time you're in your early 30s, you could be debt-free by your 40s.... nice thought, huh?

Haha yes that would be a nice thought. I am in my mid 20's, and the debt already gives me anxiety. I already get letters letting me know how much interest I am accruing. I have considered stopping with my masters degree, but I don't feel that I would be content with the jobs available with a MA degree. Ideally, I would like a job at an academic hospital, and would like to be involved in research. So I feel that a doctoral degree is necessary to achieve my goals, but I don't know if I can handle the debt associated. My other option would be to take another year off, and work as a full time research assistant. If I take a year off, I will have to begin paying back my loans from my MA program. When enrolled back in school the following year, would I be able to stop payment on those loans?

DrGero, thank you for the advice. In regards to the positions that you mentioned, how competitive are they? I would love to land a position that would offer loan forgiveness, although I do not know much yet about these options. What kind of public sector jobs would offer loan forgiveness?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If you do a search, there is a good thread on here about various loan repayment and forgiveness programs. As for the competitiveness of these programs, some are open to most students (I think APA-acred. program may be a requirement for some, private loans excluded, etc), while others are quite competitive because there are so few. I wouldn't go into things planning on these programs, though many do take advantage of them and do fine.

 

[psich]

Haha yes that would be a nice thought. I am in my mid 20's, and the debt already gives me anxiety. I already get letters letting me know how much interest I am accruing. I have considered stopping with my masters degree, but I don't feel that I would be content with the jobs available with a MA degree. Ideally, I would like a job at an academic hospital, and would like to be involved in research. So I feel that a doctoral degree is necessary to achieve my goals, but I don't know if I can handle the debt associated. My other option would be to take another year off, and work as a full time research assistant. If I take a year off, I will have to begin paying back my loans from my MA program. When enrolled back in school the following year, would I be able to stop payment on those loans?

DrGero, thank you for the advice. In regards to the positions that you mentioned, how competitive are they? I would love to land a position that would offer loan forgiveness, although I do not know much yet about these options. What kind of public sector jobs would offer loan forgiveness?

I don't know if you'll have to pay back your master's loans while in a doctoral program, but if you are so concerned about loans, why not forgo a PsyD program and apply to a funded PhD program?

 

[Student4Life0]

I don't know if you'll have to pay back your master's loans while in a doctoral program, but if you are so concerned about loans, why not forgo a PsyD program and apply to a funded PhD program?

Well, that would be the ideal 🙂 I have applied to 9 programs and have yet to hear back from any of them, although I know it is still early (and thankfully, none of my programs are on the list of invites yet!) Of the 9 programs, 3 are fully funded, 3 are fully/partially funded, and 3 are unfunded. Perhaps it is too early to be panicking, but I like to know all of my options when going into a situation. I fear that I will not get an acceptance into any of the funded programs. I think that I am a pretty competitive student for these programs, and yet I know that there is A TON of equally good, and better, competition out there. I have already taken time off, and do not want to take anymore off. Although I am considering taking a year off if I only gain admission into the unfunded programs. I guess I really am unsure, and need to wait and see my options. I have been contemplating all of this for months now, and just want to hear back from programs!!!

 

[DrGero]

I don't know if you'll have to pay back your master's loans while in a doctoral program, but if you are so concerned about loans, why not forgo a PsyD program and apply to a funded PhD program?

The trade-off should be voiced explicitly here.

For Student4Life and any number of others in (his?) position, if you apply for funded programs only you could be interminably applying and reapplying every year while making a minimal (if you're lucky) salary as an RA or masters-student while putting the rest of your life on hold (e.g., family, career, etc).

The benefit of taking such time is that you can make yourself more competitive for funded programs and eventually get in and graduate with minimal or no debt.

The cost of taking so much time is lost opportunity costs associated with a late start to one's career and the anxiety of having to delay 'getting on with your life.'

Obviously, the costs of accepting a slot in an unfunded program are clear and don't need to be elucidated much further - debt that follows people for life (and, depending on where you chose to go to school and how you leveraged yourself, relatively poor job prospects).

Not saying that either side of this scale is a clear winner, because there's compelling reasons (believe it or not) that cause students to apply to unfunded programs.

Personally I would have preferred to have waited, myself, and done the 'cultivate-my-competitiveness' bit and applied for funded programs only. On the other hand, I don't have too many regrets. I like my job, I get paid fairly well, even with my student loan payments. My biggest regret is not my student loans. It's my mortgage (I'm underwater). 🙁

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Personally I would have preferred to have waited, myself, and done the 'cultivate-my-competitiveness' bit and applied for funded programs only. On the other hand, I don't have too many regrets. I like my job, I get paid fairly well, even with my student loan payments.

I have similar feelings to DrGero, as I think with another year I could have gotten into a middle of the road Ph.D. with better funding than the uni based-PsyD I attended. I was coming from another career and I was very concerned about delaying my entrance into a program. I think the debt can be manageable, but the interest rates REALLY make taking $100-$150k in debt a lot more problematic. 2% v. 4% v. 6.8% (current gov't rate) is the difference of tends of thousands of dollars.

 

[psich]

The trade-off should be voiced explicitly here.

For Student4Life and any number of others in (his?) position, if you apply for funded programs only you could be interminably applying and reapplying every year while making a minimal (if you're lucky) salary as an RA or masters-student while putting the rest of your life on hold (e.g., family, career, etc).

The benefit of taking such time is that you can make yourself more competitive for funded programs and eventually get in and graduate with minimal or no debt.

The cost of taking so much time is lost opportunity costs associated with a late start to one's career and the anxiety of having to delay 'getting on with your life.'

Obviously, the costs of accepting a slot in an unfunded program are clear and don't need to be elucidated much further - debt that follows people for life (and, depending on where you chose to go to school and how you leveraged yourself, relatively poor job prospects).

Not saying that either side of this scale is a clear winner, because there's compelling reasons (believe it or not) that cause students to apply to unfunded programs.

Personally I would have preferred to have waited, myself, and done the 'cultivate-my-competitiveness' bit and applied for funded programs only. On the other hand, I don't have too many regrets. I like my job, I get paid fairly well, even with my student loan payments. My biggest regret is not my student loans. It's my mortgage (I'm underwater). 🙁

There’s going to be anxiety regardless of what route you take - funded or unfunded - and lost opportunities will be present whether you decide to start too early or wait too long. That's just the nature of things. There’s also no argument against unfunded PsyD programs. But if you look at it from a financial perspective – which was the OP’s main concern – then it makes more sense to try out for a funded PhD (which he/she did).


I'm sorry to hear about your mortgage woes...I hope it works out.

 

[psychmama]

I just graduated from Rutgers, which is a University based PsyD program. I did the program as a career change, so I had saved quite a bit of money and had my house already and very little debt unpaid from college. However, I did have pretty high cost of living expenses -- house in the suburbs, three kids, etc. You get the picture.

I was able to shave the tuition down because Rutgers charges lower tuition for in-state residents. Also, I worked part-time similar to what Dr. Gero described. I would have been able to work more after the first year in my program, except I had a long commute and three young children, so my time was precious. Most of my friends at Rutgers worked more than I did, and between this work, a little bit of funding, and loans, they managed to get out of grad school with less than 100k debt. Rutgers partially funds some of their PsyD students, but only a lucky few get a free ride or anything close to that (I was not among these, sadly).

I think unfunded PsyD programs are expensive, but there are ways to make it work. Nonetheless, I think it's important to have a plan going in. That way you minimize the unpleasant surprises later on.😱

 

[Student4Life0]

If I am lucky, I will end up at Rutgers. It is one of the partially funded programs that I applied to. I really don't want to spend the next three years applying over and over again to funded programs. I don't have the time or patience. I have already taken time off, have worked in various labs, and have solid clinical experience. My GRE/GPA meets cut offs. I hope to make it into a funded program this year, but if I don't, chances are I will have to go the unfunded route. I guess I will just hope to find a part time job and try to minimize my debt. Most of my loans are stafford loans, but some of them are unfortunately GradPlus, with a high interest rate...I think its something like 8%. Oh well, hopefully I will have good news in a few months....a funded program!

 

[Student4Life0]

Does anybody know of a place to apply for scholarships?

 

[Student4Life0]

I am reading about the 10 year income-based repayment program; working for 10 years in a public service job while making 120 payments towards your debt. After the 120 payments, the rest of your debt is forgiven. Almost seems too good to be true. My question is, what exactly is "a public service job?" Would psychologist count, or only in specific settings? Is this a competitive program, or can anybody with high debt/public service job obtain this?

 

[jekyl]

I am reading about the 10 year income-based repayment program; working for 10 years in a public service job while making 120 payments towards your debt. After the 120 payments, the rest of your debt is forgiven. Almost seems too good to be true. My question is, what exactly is "a public service job?" Would psychologist count, or only in specific settings? Is this a competitive program, or can anybody with high debt/public service job obtain this?

I found this online:

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"The borrower must be employed full-time in a public service job for each of the 120 monthly payments. Public service jobs include, among other positions, emergency management, government (excluding time served as a member of Congress), military service, public safety and law enforcement (police and fire), public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health care support occupations), public education, early childhood education (including licensed or regulated childcare, Head Start, and State-funded prekindergarten), social work in a public child or family service agency, public services for individuals with disabilities or the elderly, public interest legal services (including prosecutors, public defenders and legal advocacy on behalf of low-income communities at a nonprofit organization), public librarians, school librarians and other school-based services, and employees of tax exempt 501(c)(3) organizations. Full-time faculty at tribal colleges and universities, as well as faculty teaching in high-need subject areas and shortage areas (including nurse faculty, foreign language faculty, and part-time faculty at community colleges), also qualify."

From here: http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml
.

 

[jekyl]

I also just saw this on Grad PLUS loans:

"[FONT=arial, helvetica]Grad PLUS loans are eligible for forgiveness. However, the language in section 455(d)(1)(D) of the Higher Education Act of 1965 precludes the use of income-contingent repayment for PLUS loans. This is fixed by section 493C(b)(3), which amends the exclusion to apply to just Parent PLUS loans. But that amendment is effective July 1, 2009. So until July 1, 2009, income-contingent repayment cannot be used for Grad PLUS loans. On or after July 1, 2009, one can use income-contingent repayment for Grad PLUS loans. (Income-based repayment also becomes available for all direct loans except Parent PLUS and Perkins Loans on July 1, 2009.) However, as with Parent PLUS loans, Grad PLUS loans can become eligible for income-contingent repayment provided that they are included in a Federal Direct Consolidation Loan and the borrower did not enter repayment before July 1, 2006. Consolidation loans that include a Grad PLUS loan are also eligible for income-based repayment starting July 1, 2009."

It's kind of confusing with all of the changes and stipulations however.
.

 

[DrGero]

I am reading about the 10 year income-based repayment program; working for 10 years in a public service job while making 120 payments towards your debt. After the 120 payments, the rest of your debt is forgiven. Almost seems too good to be true. My question is, what exactly is "a public service job?" Would psychologist count, or only in specific settings? Is this a competitive program, or can anybody with high debt/public service job obtain this?

I've done the research on it and it appears that anyone in a public sector job (city, state, federal) working as a psychologist can be part of the PSLF program - although there may be some jobs in gray areas that may need to be researched specifically

There is no application or form you have to fill out (yet) at this point you just need to be 1) employed full-time in a qualifying job; 2) have your loans consolidated in the Direct Loan program, and 3) be under the Income Contingent Loan Repayment (or Income-Based Loan Repayment) plans.

Since there's no standard form to fill out, you need to keep dilligent records of your employment and your payments. Standard forms are being developed by the Dept. of Ed. as we speak and will be out 'any moment now,' but until then, there's no standard way to record keep - just keep everything.

I may get myself on that program in the next year or two when I can finally swing a transfer to another VA (I still have my eye on Portland) - right now I'm at 80% at my current VA appointment and so I don't qualify.

What's also nice about the PLSF program is that the 120 payments *do* *not* have to be consecutive - so, if you take a forbearance period, or if you want to drop down to the 30 year plan to reduce your payment level for a couple months or whatever, and then restart on the Income Contingent plan, you can still do that.

Anyways, so those are the important details I can recall offhand. A couple of good websites I found while researching:

http://www.finaid.org/loans/publicservice.phtml

http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/PSF.jsp

Anyways, hope that helps some people.

 

[Student4Life0]

Thank you for the information everybody! I am actually reading about NHSC right now, and this seems to be the best bet for loan repayment. Five years of service in an approved site gets you $170,000 of repayment. There were 87 approved sites in my state alone, so this seems promising. However, I would never put all of my eggs in one basket. It is nice to know that if I go the unfunded route, there are some options.

 

[DrGero]

Thank you for the information everybody! I am actually reading about NHSC right now, and this seems to be the best bet for loan repayment. Five years of service in an approved site gets you $170,000 of repayment. There were 87 approved sites in my state alone, so this seems promising. However, I would never put all of my eggs in one basket. It is nice to know that if I go the unfunded route, there are some options.

I wonder about the NHSC. I'm betting that a lot of those places pay minimally and/or may be located in geographically remote areas. But, if you're single and can stomach that (or, say, working in a prison - which I can't) then it does sound like the way to go.

On a related note, I'm looking at the new Congress a little nervously and wondering about the long-term viability of these kinds of programs, but I suppose that's an issue for another thread?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

On a related note, I'm looking at the new Congress a little nervously and wondering about the long-term viability of these kinds of programs, but I suppose that's an issue for another thread?

Please feel free to make a thread in the Sociopolitical Forum, as this would be an interesting discussion. Fair warning, some of the posters in there are very passionate about their parties.

 

[Student4Life0]

I wonder about the NHSC. I'm betting that a lot of those places pay minimally and/or may be located in geographically remote areas. But, if you're single and can stomach that (or, say, working in a prison - which I can't) then it does sound like the way to go.

On a related note, I'm looking at the new Congress a little nervously and wondering about the long-term viability of these kinds of programs, but I suppose that's an issue for another thread?

The pay would worry me, but I was actually surprised by the location of these sites. At least in my state, there were quite a few placements that were part of a well respected academic hospital, and a placement at a very well respected psychiatric research hospital. Many of the sites were at community mental healthy centers, and some at prisons. I have never worked in a prison setting, but I actually think I would enjoy it.

 

[Sendtrees]

"I think that I am a pretty competitive student for these programs, and yet I know that there is A TON of equally good, and better, competition out there."

S4L, I don't know you, so I'm not sure if you're being modest--you may be better than a lot of the competition out there. But if you're not, think about yourself 5 or 6 years down the line trying to get an academic research job that will be MUCH MORE competitive than any Ph.D. program.

Most Ph.D. programs will protect you from debt and PROBABLY give you a better start on a career. There are no guarantees, unfortunately, and any doctoral program is going to cost you in terms of lost income. But lost income is one thing, $150K in debt is quite another.

 

[Student4Life0]

"I think that I am a pretty competitive student for these programs, and yet I know that there is A TON of equally good, and better, competition out there."

S4L, I don't know you, so I'm not sure if you're being modest--you may be better than a lot of the competition out there. But if you're not, think about yourself 5 or 6 years down the line trying to get an academic research job that will be MUCH MORE competitive than any Ph.D. program.

Most Ph.D. programs will protect you from debt and PROBABLY give you a better start on a career. There are no guarantees, unfortunately, and any doctoral program is going to cost you in terms of lost income. But lost income is one thing, $150K in debt is quite another.

I think I'm being realistic, not sure if it's modest. I do have research experience from a variety of labs, but no publications. One in the works, but nothing that was on my CV. I didn't want to pad it with a bunch of "in preparation" type stuff. Great clinical experience/GPA/LOR...good GRE. Solid applicant, but probably nothing extraordinary. Although I do believe I would be competitive at most PsyD programs...I hope. If I took another year, I would get publications and probably be a much better candidate. So I guess I am going to just wait and see how it all pans out. Perhaps I will be lucky enough to get some funding for 2011, but maybe not. In April I will have to make an informed decision, although I really do not want to take another year off.