Question Re: MCAT Starting from Zero

[ekennedy51]

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I had a quick question for you all regarding the time necessary to study for the MCAT. I have read all of the posts in the non-trad forum FAQ and also read many of the similar threads, but didn't find a precise answer to my question.

To give you a brief summary of my experience so far:
I graduated from my state's flagship university in 2006 with a degree in Ecology and Evolutionary Biology. My GPA was not abysmal, but it was not competitive for medical school admission, either (3.05 range core, 2.8 or so science). I spent the next 4 years working at a regular job to support my wife through vet school. She graduated in May and got a job in a different city. As such, we moved and I enrolled in a different university to take some classes to get back into an academic mindset and to begin preparation for the MCAT (which I have not taken yet).

I am also currently a medical scribe, working about 20 hours a week in an ER charting for emergency physicians.

Last semester, I took Functional Human Anatomy, Human Development and Disease, and Medical Terminology. I got all As and felt pretty good about it. This semester, I am enrolled in Molecular Genetics, Systematics, and I am helping TA a section of Anatomy (these courses have little correlation to medicine, but are some of the only classes offered that I didn't already have from my undergraduate degree).

Now I am in the predicament of gearing up for the MCAT. I feel that, regardless of my coursework, the MCAT can really help separate me from the competition, as well as make up for my low undergraduate GPA.

The question is, how long would you suggest studying prior to taking the MCAT if I am starting from "zero." That is to say, I took gen chem and gen bio in 2002/2003, organic in 2003/2004, and physics in 2005. So it has been about 6 years since I took my most recent pre-req and it has been 7 or 8 years since my oldest pre-req. As I mentioned above, I have recently taken Anatomy, but I have not taken biochemistry (course was full when I enrolled in this new school and it is only offered in the fall) or physiology, so that info is a bit foreign to me.

So, starting from this point, how long do I need? It seems people really like the EK books, and I do have that set. I am also hoping to take a Kaplan course this summer to provide a little structure to the process. My plan is to take the MCAT in August. I may apply this fall, but it is my understanding now that, in reality, I am putting myself behind the 8-ball by applying so late, as opposed to June or July. My goal is to make somewhere in the mid-30s on the MCAT. I have proven to be a good test taker when I apply myself to the process. My low undergrad GPA is simply indicative of some immaturity and indecision as to what I wanted to do with my life. I can confidently say that you grow up a lot over a period of 5 years, and my renewed commitment to this endeavor has been very productive.

Hopefully I have made some sense here. I am just concerned at the time it has been since I took my pre-reqs, and so I am curious as to how long it takes to go from 0-60, to borrow a car term. 🙂

Thanks for any insight,

Eli

 

[Pons Asinorum]

The question is, how long would you suggest studying prior to taking the MCAT if I am starting from "zero." That is to say, I took gen chem and gen bio in 2002/2003, organic in 2003/2004, and physics in 2005. So it has been about 6 years since I took my most recent pre-req and it has been 7 or 8 years since my oldest pre-req. As I mentioned above, I have recently taken Anatomy, but I have not taken biochemistry (course was full when I enrolled in this new school and it is only offered in the fall) or physiology, so that info is a bit foreign to me.

Nearly regardless of how far back/well you did in your prereqs, I would still highly recommend the 3- or maybe better 4-month study plan that SD2ed have stickied in the MCAT Forum. Any more = burnout. The amount of material covered on the MCAT isn't unconquerable. The key is to strategically take and review your practice exams, which are stressed under those plans. It can be done with work. I studied less than the 3 months and felt that the tradeoffs I made in content review didn't hold me back from getting in the range I wanted.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Nearly regardless of how far back/well you did in your prereqs, I would still highly recommend the 3- or maybe better 4-month study plan that SD2ed have stickied in the MCAT Forum. Any more = burnout. The amount of material covered on the MCAT isn't unconquerable. The key is to strategically take and review your practice exams, which are stressed under those plans. It can be done with work. I studied less than the 3 months and felt that the tradeoffs I made in content review didn't hold me back from getting in the range I wanted.

I don't know how pressed for time you are, but courses in biochemistry and physics II are, in my opinion, the best background knowledge to have to help the MCAT.

Is it possible that you could re-take physics II and take biochemistry this fall before you start your MCAT prep next spring? You may find that these two courses, along with an intensive MCAT prep in the spring will push your scores up into the impressive range.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

My low undergrad GPA is simply indicative of some immaturity and indecision as to what I wanted to do with my life. I can confidently say that you grow up a lot over a period of 5 years, and my renewed commitment to this endeavor has been very productive.

Here's my brutally-honest advice:

Your low GPA in science indicates something other than immaturity. It also indicates that you never learned the material. If you averaged a C+ in your science classes then you didn't learn the material.

I recommend two to three months of study for people who got A's in all their classes. But for you, you have to go back and actually learn everything, so it's hard to say how long this will take. I'd say give yourself at least four extra months of study, but in reality it wouldn't hurt to spend a year or two retaking classes...

...

Which leads to my next point. I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't seriously try to improve your GPA. Study this table very closely. The table shows sort of "base rate" odds of getting accepted with various GPA and MCAT combinations.

So let's say that you score around a 33-35 on the MCAT (this is a fairly high score). With a 3.05 cumulative GPA and an MCAT of 33-35, the odds of getting accepted are around 40%.

So with that in mind ask yourself: what's the best way to improve your chances of getting accepted? Score higher on the MCAT? Or improve your GPA?

Based on the table, if you move up to 39+ on the MCAT with the same GPA, your odds of getting accepted to medical school don't really change that much. But if you improve your GPA to greater than 3.6, your odds of acceptance double.

So my advice to you is to retake some courses and get that GPA up (#1 priority). In the process, you'll learn the material better this time and be actually prepared to take the MCAT.

Good luck!

 

[ChE04]

... Study this table very closely. The table shows sort of "base rate" odds of getting accepted with various GPA and MCAT combinations.

So let's say that you score around a 33-35 on the MCAT (this is a fairly high score). With a 3.05 cumulative GPA and an MCAT of 33-35, the odds of getting accepted are around 40%.

On the other hand, if you tank your GPA into the 2.0-2.19 range, and get that 33-35 MCAT, your odds go up to 100%! 😉

 

[ekennedy51]

I definitely appreciate all the responses! This is helping to synthesize some plans.

Hopeful, I certainly appreciate the honest reply-- it's what I am looking for. I would agree that my mastery of the material in my undergrad was lacking. But my statement of chalking this GPA up to immaturity was not to suggest that I learned it and just got bad grades-- rather, it was to point out that my GPA is not indicative of how hard I am willing to work now, nor is it indicative of my ability or intelligence. I was not willing to work hard in my undergraduate classes. I put in time, but not enough. I spent the rest of my time working in research labs, writing for the school newspaper, being an orientation leader, a leadership guide, a resident assistant, an SGA senator-- basically if there was an activity on campus, I was involved in it and this turned out to be to my peril.

But, like I said, you grow up a lot in 5 years. I got married, I bought a house, I worked in the real world. There is a maturation and an appreciation that occurs, and it really helps to put goals into focus in ways they may not have been before.

As for getting my GPA up to a 3.6, that is a virtual impossibility. I am currently dragging behind me about 130 hours of undergraduate work that is at a 3.05. I could put in another 130 hours and STILL not get my GPA up to a 3.6. Rather, in talking to a couple deans of admission at my state medical schools, they stressed a few semesters of course work, with pretty much all As, to show a difference. The student from 5 years ago and the student they are interviewing are different, basically. My focus, in my opinion, should be to show this positive academic growth by showing myself as a student TODAY who is able to work and achieve whatever grade I want, which I have thus far done.

Which is what leads me to the MCAT, and the reason for my posting this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with you-- my subpar performance coupled with the time since taking the courses (in some cases almost a decade) has left me rusty at best on the material. BUT everyone I talk to who seems to know anything about the MCAT suggests that retaking these courses or reading textbooks cover-to-cover would be a waste of time. The MCAT doesn't cover blanket course material, but rather focuses on specific subsets of these subjects. I flat out suggested to both of the above-mentioned deans of admission that maybe I should re-take or audit the pre-req courses over a period of a couple years to refresh myself, and both they and a Kaplan counselor suggested this would likely be a waste of my time, as not all of the material is useful. Rather, they suggested focused study on the areas of these subjects that are actually on the MCAT.

So while I agree that improving my GPA is useful (and is a process I am currently undertaking), given my history and specific situation, I don't see any situation where I move my position on that table drastically up. Rather, I am trying to focus on achieving an MCAT score that moves my position further to the right, with the idea being that when someone looks at my application in a year or two, they see a student who took 4 years off, but came back and achieved As in almost every class he took, and then scored well above average on his MCAT.

I hope I am making sense, I can ramble a bit.

Thanks again, and please don't hesitate to keep the advice coming!

Eli

 

[EdLongshanks]

Which is what leads me to the MCAT, and the reason for my posting this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with you-- my subpar performance coupled with the time since taking the courses (in some cases almost a decade) has left me rusty at best on the material. BUT everyone I talk to who seems to know anything about the MCAT suggests that retaking these courses or reading textbooks cover-to-cover would be a waste of time. The MCAT doesn't cover blanket course material, but rather focuses on specific subsets of these subjects. I flat out suggested to both of the above-mentioned deans of admission that maybe I should re-take or audit the pre-req courses over a period of a couple years to refresh myself, and both they and a Kaplan counselor suggested this would likely be a waste of my time, as not all of the material is useful. Rather, they suggested focused study on the areas of these subjects that are actually on the MCAT.

Eli

The Kaplan counselor is financially interested. The dean has a wider selection of students, but remember that he, himself, has probably not taken the modern MCAT and is being massaged and fed information by the prep-course lobbyists.

I took it last year. I can assure you that no amount of studying subsets of material will help you if you don't have the understanding behind the subsets. The writers of the MCAT are pretty bright people, and they try to write a test that cannot be gamed with prep courses. Pre-med students, however, are desperate to improve their scores, so they are easy pickings for prep course people who don't care if their students are harmed by their advice, as long as they show a big "improvement" between pre-course tests and post-course tests. If you improve your score by taking courses by yourself, then when you take their course, it will not show the same effect.

I fell for the "subset" myth, myself, and tried to study the organic chemistry this way. It cost me a few points.

Look, you are impatient to get into medical school. I understand, I feel the same way myself. But if waiting one more year and taking just a few review courses made a difference between getting in or not getting in, wouldn't it be worth it?

Secondly, you haven't discussed this, but re-taking courses WILL improve your college GPA significantly with DO schools.

And please, please don't reply that you aren't interested in DO schools because they aren't prestigious enough for you. This common response frustrates those of us who take our time to advise someone, only to find out that they are more interested in status than medicine.

 

[ekennedy51]

No, DO is definitely something I am considering. And it isn't so much impatience as it is a desire not to mess it up. As I mentioned, I have been advised by both state schools who have looked at my transcripts that taking 2 years of coursework just isn't necessary. Both schools have told me that they look at these periods as separate. A year or so of A level coursework combined with a good MCAT and a terrific personal statement will get me an interview. They also recommended that I not re-take 100 and 200 level courses that I already have credit for. I am going to trust that advice and continue on the plan they set for me. If that damns me down the road, so be it, but it won't be because I deviated from what they set forth. If I don't get in on my first attempt (which I am hopeful of, but not in any way anticipating), then I will continue to take more coursework and work to improve my application.

The point of this thread was not to debate the benefits of taking more courses. They are undeniable from a quantitative standpoint, as well as showing a comparison between now and then. The point was to get an idea-- from people who have taken it-- what amount of time should be spent preparing for the MCAT if the pre-reqs were not recently taken/fresh. Specifically, I am curious to find out if there is good review work, or if the prep books (EK, PR, Kap, etc) have enough review built into them.

I want to clarify, if it takes a year, two, or five, my goal is to go to medical school and I will do what it takes to get there. I am just looking for the most efficient path, something I think most people can understand.

Thanks!
Eli

 

[ChE04]

As long as you didn't sleep through physics/gchem back in the day, I'm going to throw another vote in the hat for 'don't retake.' I was so very close to retaking these courses during my post-bacc, because it had been so long (2000-2001) but now, as I am studying for the MCAT, I can tell you I am glad I didn't (PS is consistently my strongest section), and took bio courses instead. The Berkely Review books go in more than enough depth for these subjects, in my opinion, and I am also supplementing with Princeton Review (yes I took the course, too).

And please, please don't reply that you aren't interested in DO schools because they aren't prestigious enough for you. This common response frustrates those of us who take our time to advise someone, only to find out that they are more interested in status than medicine.

Jumping the gun a bit aren't you? Besides, what if the OP had valid reasons, like these:

I should be satisfied with a DO or with a PA. That's nonsense, as several who have been accepted into allopathic schools - and in particular my state school - have shown.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8536031&postcount=48

And, upon self-examination, I believe that this is the real reason that I am hesitant to go the DO route. There are still too many places where they don't think someone is a "real" doctor unless they have that "MD" after their name. I fear that I might not be able to treat some people who otherwise could be helped.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8535076&postcount=42

I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......

I had enough of these discussions just when I was considering applying to an osteopathic school. When I heard second hand that I was going to be a Physician's Assistant, I had enough. I don't want to deal with it. I know that DO's are just as good as MD's and I know that MOST people know it, I just don't like dealing with the minority.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9849239&postcount=8

Pot, kettle, black...

 

[EdLongshanks]

No, DO is definitely something I am considering. And it isn't so much impatience as it is a desire not to mess it up. As I mentioned, I have been advised by both state schools who have looked at my transcripts that taking 2 years of coursework just isn't necessary. Both schools have told me that they look at these periods as separate.

School specific advice, obviously, trumps everything. So, it is reasonable for you to try at least 1 cycle with an MCAT only strategy - since your GPA will not preclude you from state school interviews. Even if your MCAT comes up low and you need to retake the courses, you can do that if you don't get in the first cycle.

I would still take Biochemistry. There are no "Biochemistry specific" questions on the MCAT, rather, it's assumed in almost every BS passage. Physiology is, again, something that shows up repeatedly. For example, questions about sympathetic and para-sympathetic nerve systems seem to come up repeatedly.

You PS section is probably where you will hurt the most. This is where the physics and chemistry questions show up. Some of them are pretty simple IF you know your physics and chemistry. For example, the solubility rules are not explained, but you are expected to know that carbonate compounds are usually insoluble. Titration curves are ubiquitous.

I had some pretty simple questions about convex and concave lenses and mirrors. Pretty easy for someone who remembers how to ray trace, but impossible without it.

Physics is the easiest part to review. I liked the EK book for physics review. Chemistry is harder, but you'll get that again in BioChemistry.

So, you have 2 choices. Apply this summer or next summer. Here is how I would proceed. Spend this summer making sure all of your letters and volunteer boxes are checked. Take BioChem and Physiology in the fall. In January take a diagnostic MCAT and find out what you don't know. In the subjects that you are weak (Physics, I suspect) spend a couple of months reviewing all of the MCAT prep books in those areasto remember all of the concepts.

Then go into a full-time study course for the MCAT in March and April. This should get you into the lower to mid 30's.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

As long as you didn't sleep through physics/gchem back in the day, I'm going to throw another vote in the hat for 'don't retake.' I was so very close to retaking these courses during my post-bacc, because it had been so long (2000-2001) but now, as I am studying for the MCAT, I can tell you I am glad I didn't (PS is consistently my strongest section), and took bio courses instead. The Berkely Review books go in more than enough depth for these subjects, in my opinion, and I am also supplementing with Princeton Review (yes I took the course, too).

Originally Posted by EdLongshanks
And please, please don't reply that you aren't interested in DO schools because they aren't prestigious enough for you. This common response frustrates those of us who take our time to advise someone, only to find out that they are more interested in status than medicine.

Jumping the gun a bit aren't you? Besides, what if the OP had valid reasons, like these:

Originally Posted by EdLongshanks
I should be satisfied with a DO or with a PA. That's nonsense, as several who have been accepted into allopathic schools - and in particular my state school - have shown.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...1&postcount=48

Originally Posted by EdLongshanks
And, upon self-examination, I believe that this is the real reason that I am hesitant to go the DO route. There are still too many places where they don't think someone is a "real" doctor unless they have that "MD" after their name. I fear that I might not be able to treat some people who otherwise could be helped.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...6&postcount=42

Originally Posted by EdLongshanks
I don't care very much for myself, and I know that it won't matter as far as the career goes - its all about where the residency is done anyway. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life explaining - Yes, I'm a doctor, yes, I am a medical doctor, just not a Medical Doctor. No, a DO is not like a doctor of philosophy......

I had enough of these discussions just when I was considering applying to an osteopathic school. When I heard second hand that I was going to be a Physician's Assistant, I had enough. I don't want to deal with it. I know that DO's are just as good as MD's and I know that MOST people know it, I just don't like dealing with the minority.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...39&postcount=8

Pot, kettle, black...

Wow, ChE04 wins the thread by a landslide! 👍


EdLongshanks, do you notice that this is the second time you've been called out for hypocrisy in less than 24 hours? (See this thread.)

 

[EdLongshanks]

Wow, ChE04 wins the thread by a landslide! 👍


EdLongshanks, do you notice that this is the second time you've been called out for hypocrisy in less than 24 hours? (See this thread.)

You are correct that I have gone back and forth on the DO vs MD debate. I've never hid that fact. In fact, you will see that I discussed this just this week.

However, if you will notice, I have never, at my most foolish, said that if becoming a DO was more important to me than becoming a physician. Of course there are many DO students out there who would prefer that their school conferred an MD degree. Your quotes above selectively snip out my agreement with that point.

My frustration with many low GPA students who post here is their automatic rejection of the DO route - even though it may be the only reasonable route for them. They would rather not be a physician than be a DO. To me, this displays a real flaw in their motivations. It appears than the letters MD mean more than the job of a physician.

My going back and forth on the DO question was because that was an option for me. My stats are high enough that I could go to an allopathic school if I wished to wait another year, apply more broadly, and get a little bit more clinical experience. I won't do that, since the year means more to me than the letters. Also, in my final calculation, the location and the character of the school means more to me than the letters, although I publicly mused about it several times over the past year.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

This is where the physics and chemistry questions show up. Some of them are pretty simple IF you know your physics and chemistry. For example, the solubility rules are not explained, but you are expected to know that carbonate compounds are usually insoluble. Titration curves are ubiquitous.

side question from this discussion but MCAT based, do you suggest we memorize solubility rules for the MCAT? It's not required in my chem class, but if that is something that will help, then it's not that hard to just learn now while i can.

 

[EdLongshanks]

side question from this discussion but MCAT based, do you suggest we memorize solubility rules for the MCAT? It's not required in my chem class, but if that is something that will help, then it's not that hard to just learn now while i can.

Not all of them, but the major ones. They typically show up in the form of passages that say "Pb was reacted with... and a precipitate formed, this precipitate was reacted...."

 

[EdLongshanks]

Not all of them, but the major ones. They typically show up in the form of passages that say "Pb was reacted with... and a precipitate formed, this precipitate was reacted...."

Let me explain what I mean by the basic ones. I tried to remember 4 of them (verify these, it's been nearly a year for me). Everything in the first and next to last column of the periodic table is soluble when paired with anything. Most metals are soluble. Pb, Hg, Ag are usually not. Nitrates are usually soluble. Carbonates usually aren't.

As I said, please verify those.

Also, go by the MCAT guides and the MCAT forum on what to memorize. My memory isn't completely reliable on something that old and useless.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

I knew what you meant. Disclaimer is also noted. I have been somewhat ignoring the MCAT while going through the pre-req's mainly because I don't want to exhaust the genuine questions and also because for now the grades matter more (GPA repair is the priority). But if I manage to pick up a few tips along the way, all the better!

Thanks for the info though. 😀