Question Regarding Ws

[LatinGuitarrist]

Guys, There is discussion at the pre-allo forum regarding Ws and WUs ( Unofficial Witdrawals. I know Ws are not calculated into your gpa ( AMCAS ), but some people at the pre allo are saying that WUs might be calculated as Fs in your gpa. Do you guys have any experience info on this issue?

Sincerely,

Ed

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[spicedmanna]

I have no idea. This is the kind of question that is best addressed by contacting AMCAS/AAMC directly. I suggest doing that:

http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/contactus.htm

On the other hand, what is an "unofficial withdrawal"? Is that when you just up and leave a class and don't complete the course work, without notifying the administration of your withdrawal? If so, then it sounds like an "incomplete" grade. Here is the AMCAS information on incompletes:

Incomplete
A course is considered incomplete if the work required for it was not completed within the appropriate time limit. If the Incomplete is unresolved, no AMCAS grade will be assigned; however, if the Incomplete is resolved, an AMCAS grade must be assigned. Select Incomplete even if:

• A grade has been ultimately assigned, or
• There is no notation indicating incomplete on the official transcript.​

Many schools will assign an "IF" or "F" grade if the coursework is not completed within a given time limit. If attempted credit hours are listed on the official transcript or can be determined by AMCAS, this "F" will be included in your AMCAS GPA.

Here is the official information on withdrawals:

Withdrawal
Any course from which you officially withdrew, regardless of whether you were passing or failing at the time. Such courses usually appear on the transcript as a "W" or equivalent symbol.

• A course entry must be made even if the withdrawn course does not appear on the
transcript.
• A course entry should NOT be made if the course was dropped within the normal drop/add
period.
• No credit hours or AMCAS grade will be assigned.​

If you withdrew entirely from a school before completing courses for a specific term, you must still list each course for which you were registered that term with Withdrawal as the Course Type. If the school does not issue transcripts for students who withdraw entirely, you must request that the registrar's office forward an official letter with an AMCAS Transcript Request Form attached indicating that no transcript is available because of institutional policies. The Transcript Request Form can be found in the Transcript Requests section of the application.

 

[awk]

This question is getting to be annoying.

1. There is no "AMCAS GPA" It doesn't exist. All thats on your amcas is the courses you took, you grade (including W's), and where you took them.

2. Each Medical school will deal with your W's independently and without any regard to the AAMC. This means some might call them Fs while others might ignore them.

What I quoted earlier was a quote from a senior member of a review panel: "why would anyone drop unless they were going to fail?" This is obviously from a school that goes by the F routine. Don't bother with the AAMC when addressing this question....you need to go straight to the school you are applying to to get a real answer.

 

[spicedmanna]

This question is getting to be annoying.

1. There is no "AMCAS GPA" It doesn't exist. All thats on your amcas is the courses you took, you grade (including W's), and where you took them.

Well, I'm writing this in haste as I have an appointment coming up, but I think there is such a thing as an AMCAS GPA. It is what the application service calculates based on your course entries (which they verify against your official transcripts). Each college you apply to that subscribes to AMCAS receives an official profile that contains your AMCAS calculated GPA's. AMCAS standardizes your course information as well as your grades and GPA. This is the information that colleges use to screen and for the admissions process. They also look at your other course information, too, as well as with trends in your grades. But your AMCAS GPA is what most schools rely on for screening and whatnot. Most colleges won't have your official transcripts with your transcript grades until your matriculation, in which they just check to make sure you've satisfied their academic requirements and certify that you have your degree and whatnot.

 

[LatinGuitarrist]

2. Each Medical school will deal with your W's independently and without any regard to the AAMC. This means some might call them Fs while others might ignore them.

So does this mean that AMCAS will not translate WUs as Fs in your GPA, but certain schools will "see them" as such? I am guessing they will see them, but not calculating them?

Ed

 

[awk]

Okay...The AAMC does NOT calculate a GPA for you. Once each med school gets you application they will look at your grades (actually some flunky will do this for them based on specifications...I know one of these people) and calculate your GPA based on their own stipulations. Again, if they say "count W's as Fs" for whatever reason then you will get a 0 calculated into your GPA. Also know that Ws are not the only grades treated this way....sometimes a B+ can become a B or and A and so on. Basically whatevers on your application is subject to interpretation by commitees when making their descisions which is why you can't go to the AAMC and ask "How does a W affect my GPA?" They won't have a clue.

Also, the AMCAS will not put a F on you application instead of a W, no way, they will report whatever you tell them....even a M-!

 

[spicedmanna]

Hey, Awk, I agree that an applicant is best served by asking the medical schools directly how they would treat course withdrawals and variants. This is information that only the schools will have, and not AMCAS. I also agree that some medical schools will disregard your AMCAS-calculated GPA's for their own calculations, based on the course information that they receive from your AMCAS profile. Obviously, schools have the right to interpret your classwork as they see fit; that's their prerogative. Clearly, AMCAS has no say over how a school would do this; they simply provide the applicant profile, which includes all your verified coursework and AMCAS-calculated GPA's.

However, I don't think it is good practice to make a strong, blanket statement such as, "there is no AMCAS GPA", when there clearly is one. Many schools do use the GPA's calculated from AMCAS. Yes, the AAMC does calculate a GPA for you; please check their website and the AMCAS instructions. I acknowledge that some medical schools will calculate and use their own GPA's, but there are also many schools that will simply take your AMCAS-calculated ones and use them for admissions purposes. So, to make such universal statements as, "there is no AMCAS GPA", or, "AAMC does not calculate a GPA for you," is to be misleading, since it is quite clear that AMCAS GPA's do exist and it is calculated by AAMC/AMCAS. There are actually three AMCAS-calculated GPA's: undergraduate, postbaccalaureate undergraduate, and graduate. The AMCAS-calculated undergraduate GPA is broken down by freshman, sophomore, etc., and cummulative, which also averages in the postbaccalaureate undergraduate work. All three categories are broken down into BCPM and AO, as you know.

I am not an adcomm member, but I seriously doubt that all medical schools follow the methodology you state. Like I said earlier, I bet some do. Furthermore, AMCAS will NOT simply report what you give them; they actually verify your material against your official transcripts. If what you enter is different from what's official, they will correct it to match your transcript. Also, they will standardize your reported grades; there is a column for that as well as your original transcript grade. Obviously, you are right that schools get all of this information and can do what they please with all of it, which they receive in the profile for each applicant. Clearly, most schools will examine your course information in some level of detail at some point in the process.

Here is information that I found off of Duke's website regarding AMCAS GPA's:

The AMCAS application previously calculated and displayed an "unofficial AMCAS GPA" so that an applicant could see what his/her AMCAS GPA was likely to be, even before the "official AMCAS GPA" was calculated by AMCAS. Two years ago they decided they would no longer provide and "unofficial GPA", but rather they would wait until they could report the official one.

If you want to go through the AMCAS calculation to see what your "unofficial AMCAS GPA" would be, you can use the grade conversion information available on the AMCAS Web site. Remember that for the purposes of calculating your AMCAS GPA, a full 1cc course at Duke is equal to 4 semester hours; a 0.5 cc course is 2.0 semester hours, etc. Or you can wait for AMCAS to process the application. Once processing is complete, AMCAS will notify you of your "official AMCAS GPA" that will be transmitted to the designated medical schools.

Here is information from the AAMC website regarding the same subject:

Standardized grading information: colleges do not follow a national standard for awarding credits and grades, and therefore, GPA calculations may differ from one institution to the next according to internal standards and policies. The medical schools need a way to compare applicants on the same scale, which is why AMCAS "normalizes" grading systems and calculates an "AMCAS GPA." The medical schools use the AMCAS GPA in their admissions review, rather than the GPA's calculated on each school's transcript. The following is a common example that affects many applicants:

The AMCAS GPA calculation includes all attempted credits - AMCAS does not recognize "forgiveness" policies.

Example: you failed a three-credit semester course the first time you took it, then earned an "A" the second time. If the school has a forgiveness policy, your GPA for that class will be a 4.0, but your AMCAS GPA will be 2.0.

In addition, AMCAS calculates a cumulative, undergraduate GPA for applicants who have attended more than one institution.

If the applicant wishes to calculate an approximate AMCAS GPA, s/he may use the grade conversion chart available on the AMCAS Web site, or wait for AMCAS to process the application. Once processing is complete, AMCAS will notify the applicant and provide the GPA that will be transmitted to the designated medical schools.

 

[awk]

There is the Real world and the Dream world. I am trying to express to the OP what really goes on in the Real application process. There are no official set of guidelines for an adcomm to follow regarding GPA. I've called around to UF, USF, Miami and MUSC just to ask....they all said they use their own formulas to calculate GPA and MUSC and Miami said they would mail my a copy of theirs. The quote in my first post was from a UF member so I can guess where they stand.

This thread was formed to discuss the significance of Ws on a transcript. My point was that Ws may be viewed as Fs. Pure and simple. I think the OP is worried about this affecting his GPA. Since the only GPA that matters is the one the med schools use the AAMC is not a factor in most cases. They are responsible for gathering grades and verifying them. At most schools thats as far as their reach goes.


I am sorry if my satire about the "M-" came across as serious...it wasn't.

 

[stockmanjr]

There is the Real world and the Dream world. I am trying to express to the OP what really goes on in the Real application process. There are no official set of guidelines for an adcomm to follow regarding GPA. I've called around to UF, USF, Miami and MUSC just to ask....they all said they use their own formulas to calculate GPA and MUSC and Miami said they would mail my a copy of theirs. The quote in my first post was from a UF member so I can guess where they stand.

This thread was formed to discuss the significance of Ws on a transcript. My point was that Ws may be viewed as Fs. Pure and simple. I think the OP is worried about this affecting his GPA. Since the only GPA that matters is the one the med schools use the AAMC is not a factor in most cases. They are responsible for gathering grades and verifying them. At most schools thats as far as their reach goes.


I am sorry if my satire about the "M-" came across as serious...it wasn't.

Can you explain to me why anyone would count a W as a F? WU's are counted as a F by most universities I know but a W has no numerical value and is assigned when a student runs into some sort of problem and takes action in a timely manner. I dont get why any school would hold a W against a student?
cheers
howie

 

[LatinGuitarrist]

WU's are counted as a F by most universities I know

This is crazy! Do you mean by med schools or the actual school where the WU was obtained? Is the WU calculated into your gpa by AMCAS since it was into your gpa?

 

[musashi]

Yikes!! I sure hope that W's are not counted as F's. I have a couple on my undergraduate transcript. My transcript just says W for said classes. I hope schools in Texas don't follow this algorithm. I can understand about the UW's, but like a previous poster said, this should show a student being smart before something worse happened. I read on another post about students taking non-reg'd clourses such as bichemistry and genetics, not doing well initially in the course and then dropping before the no turning back point.

 

[twohearted]

1. There is no "AMCAS GPA" It doesn't exist. All thats on your amcas is the courses you took, you grade (including W's), and where you took them.

And this is coming from the guy who said medical schools count W's as F's 😕

 

[spicedmanna]

Yikes!! I sure hope that W's are not counted as F's. I have a couple on my undergraduate transcript. My transcript just says W for said classes. I hope schools in Texas don't follow this algorithm.

Some schools might do that. Call the schools you are applying to and find out how they will treat W's on your record, if you are truly concerned. It really doesn't take that much effort and will at least ease your mind, if you are worried about it. It's true that schools will analyze your classwork in a manner they see fit; some schools will calculate your GPA a certain way based on their own criteria and others will use your AMCAS GPA's.

I, on the other hand, am not concerned about this. What's done is done. I can't get away from it, no matter what, anyway. I'm a big fan of placing my attention on things that I can change and letting go of the rest.

 

[spicedmanna]

And this is coming from the guy who said medical schools count W's as F's 😕

Well, I don't want to defend Awk, but he made a good point that each school will do what they will with your AMCAS profile information. Granted, he could have told us he was being facetious and sarcastic in his delivery. Obviously AMCAS does have a calculated GPA, etc., but schools can choose to do their own calculations anyway, and some do just that. Essentially, I believe he is saying that some schools will view W's as F's. This might be true. I can't vouche for the validity of Awk's statement on W's, or how any one school will view anybody's record, since I never cared enough to ask the schools that I applied to. If you are interested in that information, I suggest contacting the school of interest rather than grinding your wheels in worry.

 

[twohearted]

Don't liksten to awk. He doesn't know what the F he is talking about. W's do not factor into your GPA period. What is for debate is whether or not unofficial/administrative withdrawals count towards your GPA. Read pg. 12 of AMCAS instructions:

Grades of "IF" or unauthorized/unofficial/administrative withdrawal may be treated as "F" in
the GPA depending on how they are considered by your school.

It's kind of vauge, but I think it means this: If your school does not factor in unofficials/administrative withdrawals (so UW,WF,WP, whatever) then it will not factor into your AMCAS GPA (oh, I forgot awk, it doesn't exist, right let me rephrase . . . ahem, Dream world GPA.) If however, your school does count those unofficial/administrative withdrawals against you then it will count in your AMCAS or sorry dream world GPA.

So it depends on your undergrad's policy. If your school counts those pesky little UWs as Ws then you're gravy.

 

[twohearted]

I, on the other hand, am not concerned about this. What's done is done. I can't get away from it, no matter what, anyway. I'm a big fan of placing my attention on things that I can change and letting go of the rest.

Some of the best advice I've ever heard on SDN.

 

[awk]

Ed,

First I would like to say that not all schools practice what I'm telling you, but some do. The only way to find out is to call or write the schools you are applying to. The AAMC (or the MSAR) can't provide this information. Only the schools can..so citing reference from AAMC publications is irrelavant to this topic...unless they started their own Medical School and your applying there.

Again twohearted displays another totally unfounded assumption that undergraduate policies have something to do with you gaining admission to medical school.

Everything I said was true: Some schools (Medical schools) may calculate Ws as Fs or 0 Grade points, however you want to look at it.

The song and dance (or smoke and mirrors) routine by some of the of above posters, in particular "twohearted", won't change that fact....but believe what you like.

 

[stockmanjr]

This is crazy! Do you mean by med schools or the actual school where the WU was obtained? Is the WU calculated into your gpa by AMCAS since it was into your gpa?

WU/WF are counted as a F by every undergrad university I know so it would make sense that they are counted into you AMCAS GPA. W's are just there and as I said already really dont show your failing. So awk let's come out with this and tell us what school's have this riddclous policy?
cheers
howie

 

[twohearted]

WU/WF are counted as a F by every undergrad university I know so it would make sense that they are counted into you AMCAS GPA.

That seems to be true. My current undergrad counts them as Fs. However, I know that it is not always true. I went to a community college a while back and WF counted as a W. It did not count in the GPA. Following the instructions on pg. 12 of AMCAS, one can reasonably say that in that rare case, a WF would not count toward AMCAS GPA. But yeah, most undergrads seem to count WF/WU as Fs.

 

[stockmanjr]

That seems to be true. My current undergrad counts them as Fs. However, I know that it is not always true. I went to a community college a while back and WF counted as a W. It did not count in the GPA. Following the instructions on pg. 12 of AMCAS, one can reasonably say that in that rare case, a WF would not count toward AMCAS GPA. But yeah, most undergrads seem to count WF/WU as Fs.

That's why I said every undergrad university I know 😀 . The reason for counting the WU/WF grades is that generally a student who earns one of those grades simply did something wrong.If a student becomes ill after the drop date usually a university will turn the WU/WF into a W so that it will not hurt the gpa.
cheers
howie

 

[awk]

Here is some info on where I'm coming from

http://www.advising.ufl.edu/information/faq/prehealth.html

Just scroll to the last question....

"Many medical schools consider W's as failing grades. They figure that if you had to drop one of your pre-health pre-requisites, you were probably failing the course."