Question(s) for Hospital-employed MD's

Started by drusso
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drusso

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1) If you are part of a medical group like "XYZ Physicians, PLLC," who owns that group? The hospital itself or the physician members?

2) Who do you report to? Who signs your boss's paycheck? The hospital or some other group or entity?

3) Do you participate in any governance activities like reviewing policies and procedures, approving budgets, personnel decisions, etc?

4) Can you choose which payers to contract or which patients to see?

Thanks in advance.
 
While TPMG (The Permanente Medical Group) is a distinct, physician-led organization, it primarily serves members of Kaiser Permanente. However, both groups employ a mix of doctors, nurses, and staff. [1, 2, 3]
The relationship between the two entities can be broken down as follows:
  • TPMG (The Permanente Medical Group): This is the autonomous, physician-led organization that handles clinical care for Kaiser patients. While its doctors are TPMG employees, the group also directly employs thousands of clinical staff, including registered nurses. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Kaiser Permanente (KFH/KFHP): This entity owns and operates the hospitals, health plans, and medical facilities. Kaiser employs its own large network of doctors, thousands of nurses, and administrative staff to keep the broader integrated healthcare system running. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Both entities operate in a close, integrated partnership to deliver care to members across California and other states. [1, 2] Actual that last line is incorrect, TPMG I think only operates in NCAL.
The confusion usually comes from the fact that Kaiser Permanente operates nationwide through eight distinct regional Permanente Medical Groups. Each region has its own independent, self-governing group of physicians: [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • The Permanente Medical Group (TPMG): Northern and Central California
  • Southern California Permanente Medical Group (SCPMG): Southern California
  • Colorado Permanente Medical Group: Colorado
  • Northwest Permanente: Oregon and Southwest Washington
  • Washington Permanente Medical Group: Western and Central Washington
  • Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group: Maryland, Virginia, and Washington, D.C.
  • Hawaii Permanente Medical Group: Hawaii
  • The Southeast Permanente Medical Group: Georgia [1, 2, 3, 4]
 
1) If you are part of a medical group like "XYZ Physicians, PLLC," who owns that group? The hospital itself or the physician members?

2) Who do you report to? Who signs your boss's paycheck? The hospital or some other group or entity?

3) Do you participate in any governance activities like reviewing policies and procedures, approving budgets, personnel decisions, etc?

4) Can you choose which payers to contract or which patients to see?

Thanks in advance.
I'm employed by a physicians group associated with a hospital system. Basically a physician governing board with executive team employed by the hospital or "hospital adjacent." Exec committee involved in governance. The CEO of the physician's group answers to hospital CEO.

We have no say in contracts with payers, though if there were an issue, the collective could bring this to the physician board and get action. Individually, we can essentially choose who we will see.

The group is pretty hand's off with how we run clinic for the most part.

In short, the physician's group is a red-headed step-child offshoot of the hospital. The group pays exorbitant rent for hospital-owned clinic space, while the clinic staff make far less than hospital staff. Clinic management answers to group exec---CEO.
 
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I'm employed by a physicians group associated with a hospital system. Basically a physician governing board with executive team employed by the hospital or "hospital adjacent." Exec committee involved in governance. The CEO of the physician's group answers to hospital CEO.

We have no say in contracts with payers, though if there were an issue, the collective could bring this to the physician board and get action. Individually, we can essentially choose who we will see.

The group is pretty hand's off with how we run clinic for the most part.

In short, the physician's group is a red-headed step-child offshoot of the hospital. The group pays exorbitant rent for hospital-owned clinic space, while the clinic staff make far less than hospital staff. Clinic management answers to group exec---CEO.

Wow...just, wow.

FWIW, I'm doing some research on various state Corporate Practice of Medicine laws. I'm learning that private-sector arrangements that would never pass regulatory scrutiny seem to fly under the radar in health systems all the time...
 
While TPMG (The Permanente Medical Group) is a distinct, physician-led organization, it primarily serves members of Kaiser Permanente. However, both groups employ a mix of doctors, nurses, and staff. [1, 2, 3]
The relationship between the two entities can be broken down as follows:
  • TPMG (The Permanente Medical Group): This is the autonomous, physician-led organization that handles clinical care for Kaiser patients. While its doctors are TPMG employees, the group also directly employs thousands of clinical staff, including registered nurses. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Kaiser Permanente (KFH/KFHP): This entity owns and operates the hospitals, health plans, and medical facilities. Kaiser employs its own large network of doctors, thousands of nurses, and administrative staff to keep the broader integrated healthcare system running. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
Both entities operate in a close, integrated partnership to deliver care to members across California and other states. [1, 2] Actual that last line is incorrect, TPMG I think only operates in NCAL.
The confusion usually comes from the fact that Kaiser Permanente operates nationwide through eight distinct regional Permanente Medical Groups. Each region has its own independent, self-governing group of physicians: [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • The Permanente Medical Group (TPMG): Northern and Central California
  • Southern California Permanente Medical Group (SCPMG): Southern California
  • Colorado Permanente Medical Group: Colorado
  • Northwest Permanente: Oregon and Southwest Washington
  • Washington Permanente Medical Group: Western and Central Washington
  • Mid-Atlantic Permanente Medical Group: Maryland, Virginia, and Washington, D.C.
  • Hawaii Permanente Medical Group: Hawaii
  • The Southeast Permanente Medical Group: Georgia [1, 2, 3, 4]

Kaiser/TPMG is regulated as an HMO. The insurance/medical group/hospital governance was actually pretty well delineated under Federal law by the HMO Act of 1973, although we now know it only happened because Henry Kaiser's son, Edgar, and Richard Nixon were trading political favors:

This is a transcript of the 1971 conversation between President Richard Nixon and John D. Ehrlichman that led to the HMO act of 1973:

John D. Ehrlichman: “On the … on the health business …”

President Nixon: “Yeah.”

Ehrlichman: “… we have now narrowed down the vice president’s problems on this thing to one issue, and that is whether we should include these health maintenance organizations like Edgar Kaiser’s Permanente thing. The vice president just cannot see it. We tried 15 ways from Friday to explain it to him and then help him to understand it. He finally says, ‘Well, I don’t think they’ll work, but if the President thinks it’s a good idea, I’ll support him a hundred percent.’”

President Nixon: “Well, what’s … what’s the judgment?”

Ehrlichman: “Well, everybody else’s judgment very strongly is that we go with it.”

President Nixon: “All right.”

Ehrlichman: “And, uh, uh, he’s the one holdout that we have in the whole office.”

President Nixon: “Say that I … I … I’d tell him I have doubts about it, but I think that it’s, uh, now let me ask you, now you give me your judgment. You know I’m not too keen on any of these damn medical programs.”

Ehrlichman: “This, uh, let me, let me tell you how I am …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “This … this is a …”

President Nixon: “I don’t [unclear] …”

Ehrlichman: “… private enterprise one.”

President Nixon: “Well, that appeals to me.”

Ehrlichman: “Edgar Kaiser is running his Permanente deal for profit. And the reason that he can … the reason he can do it … I had Edgar Kaiser come in … talk to me about this, and I went into it in some depth. All the incentives are toward less medical care, because …”

President Nixon: [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: “… the less care they give them, the more money they make.”

President Nixon: “Fine.” [Unclear.]

Ehrlichman: [Unclear] “… and the incentives run the right way.”

President Nixon: “Not bad.”
 
Wow...just, wow.

FWIW, I'm doing some research on various state Corporate Practice of Medicine laws. I'm learning that private-sector arrangements that would never pass regulatory scrutiny seem to fly under the radar in health systems all the time...
I'm well aware how you feel about this arrangement, but I don't think it's uncommon. The degree of separation from the hospital is markedly better than direct employment with them. While it gets worse every year, we can do things in the clinic with a call or email. Anything in the hospital purview is 7 committees, innumerable non-clinical "stakeholders" and everything else you'd expect from a behemoth. It's VA-lite.

Counting the days---Need to put in 20 to be vested in a bonus retirement pool. If SOS weren't a thing, I'd have started my own shop yesterday.
 
I'm well aware how you feel about this arrangement, but I don't think it's uncommon. The degree of separation from the hospital is markedly better than direct employment with them. While it gets worse every year, we can do things in the clinic with a call or email. Anything in the hospital purview is 7 committees, innumerable non-clinical "stakeholders" and everything else you'd expect from a behemoth. It's VA-lite.

Counting the days---Need to put in 20 to be vested in a bonus retirement pool. If SOS weren't a thing, I'd have started my own shop yesterday.

SOS is certainly a very, very real thing...many people were SOS-deniers here in years past...

 
1) If you are part of a medical group like "XYZ Physicians, PLLC," who owns that group? The hospital itself or the physician members?
2) Who do you report to? Who signs your boss's paycheck? The hospital or some other group or entity?

At the very top of the food chain I report to sits the ultimate alpha-predator: my wife.

3) Do you participate in any governance activities like reviewing policies and procedures, approving budgets, personnel decisions, etc?
Yes

4) Can you choose which payers to contract or which patients to see?

Yes

Thanks in advance.

The non-profit health system I work for isn’t perfect but in the context of the larger mess that is healthcare in this country, it’s pretty swell. It genuinely tries to do the right thing for the region it serves while giving physicians autonomy and fair compensation. They are progressive enough to keep private equity groups out of the area while nimble enough to not have an army of clipboard warriors siphoning off egregious salaries.
 
I worked for a hospital owned by county owned hospital authority/trust. My checks came from the hospital. Reported to the hospital admin. It worked well. Simple and truthful.
Community hospitals in good communities are awesome. They leverage the SOS to accomplish the mission of providing care to the community.

They are the polar opposite of the chain/corporate/academic monstrosities who could care less about the patients, the docs, or the community. Eff them.
 
1) If you are part of a medical group like "XYZ Physicians, PLLC," who owns that group? The hospital itself or the physician members?

2) Who do you report to? Who signs your boss's paycheck? The hospital or some other group or entity?

3) Do you participate in any governance activities like reviewing policies and procedures, approving budgets, personnel decisions, etc?

4) Can you choose which payers to contract or which patients to see?

Thanks in advance.
1) I think the hospital, not the physicians

2) report to department head, VP. The board signs his checks I’m guessing

3) we have no say in reviewing policies, procedures, approving budgets or hiring or firing personnel

4) can’t choose which payers to contract. Can choose who I see
 
I have a hybrid model. I have an independent practice 60 percent of the time. It's an hour away from a community hospital where I do the other 40 percent. They pay RVUs and do lease arrangement for employees.

Community Hospital does care and tries to do right think but even there things get stuck in "committees"

Overall I like the situation and work hard for both entities.
 
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Community hospitals in good communities are awesome. They leverage the SOS to accomplish the mission of providing care to the community.

They are the polar opposite of the chain/corporate/academic monstrosities who could care less about the patients, the docs, or the community. Eff them.
Interesting distinction. Most of the latter is what drusso rails against. The former sounds like something he'd spearhead, but be conflicted that the funding came from SOS.
I'd say my situation is in the middle. Our competition is unequivocally the second option, so ours looks great by comparison. It looked more like a community hospital when I started. I saw the CEO at least 2x/month, there were 3 people between me and him on the corporate ladder, I texted him if something wasn't working. We now have twice the clinicians, 4 hospitals instead of 2 and several more layers of bureaucracy.
 
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I have a hybrid model. I have an independent practice 60 percent of the time. It's an hour away from a community hospital where I do the other 40 percent. They pay RVUs and do lease arrangement for employees.

Community Hospital does care and tries to do right think but even there things get stuck in "committees"

Overall I like the situation and work hard for both entities.
There is a myth that hospital aren't efficient. I am in one room and today just finished 15 cases in 2 hours.
 
Damn I can only get to 10 in 2 hours
They aren't perfect but I got to say they run an efficient procedure room. I did 20 in just under three hours including 4 bilateral RFAs last month.

Then.... they come out with stuff like EVERY doctor has to have BLS, ACLS, and PALS. Even those not seeing kids like me. Its that kind of stuff that draws people's ire.
 
10 in 2 hours is better than most. 4 per hour is typical/good. Below 4 per hour is bad. Above 4 per hour is great. The surgery center would struggle doing 5 per hour. Preop patient bays are too far away from the OR.
 
10 in 2 hours is better than most. 4 per hour is typical/good. Below 4 per hour is bad. Above 4 per hour is great. The surgery center would struggle doing 5 per hour. Preop patient bays are too far away from the OR.
we do 3 per hour, if i push for 4 an hour - then all hell breaks loose
 
Everyone buys in to having adequate turnover as a high priority. Only one room but a nurse is with a next patient waits outside the door and enters immediately as the previous patient leaves.

I start in the afternoon and they are motivated to leave so they buy in.
Have an a.m. block and get back to us.

This is pretty impressive for one room in any setting.
 
I don’t think I would want to do more than 5/hour which includes rfa. The down time might have is flooded by handling stuff that my incompetent assistant should be able to do but doesn’t, not to mention call backs, chart prep, etc
 
Have an a.m. block and get back to us.

This is pretty impressive for one room in any setting.
Everyone is bought in.

In March had a day with 20 including 4 RFAs. Started at 1pm and ended at 405.

I give them credit. We all got together and figured it out.
 
I don’t think I would want to do more than 5/hour which includes rfa. The down time might have is flooded by handling stuff that my incompetent assistant should be able to do but doesn’t, not to mention call backs, chart prep, etc
What’s a call back?

What’s a chart prep?

If I’m not able to bill it, I try not to do it
 
What’s a call back?

What’s a chart prep?

If I’m not able to bill it, I try not to do it
Yeah guess I try to be a human being when I can. Most of my communication with patients is through epic but I will call older patients back who can’t use the messaging system well. Chart prep helps me with notes. My assistant sucks and should be able to offload me but that’s not the case and the patients shouldn’t suffer
 
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I don’t think I would want to do more than 5/hour which includes rfa. The down time might have is flooded by handling stuff that my incompetent assistant should be able to do but doesn’t, not to mention call backs, chart prep, etc
If they are not doing their job or they are incompetent.....fire them

I had one recently who was competent but had 8 call ins since Jan 2026. She had to go too.
 
If they are not doing their job or they are incompetent.....fire them

I had one recently who was competent but had 8 call ins since Jan 2026. She had to go too.
Yeah they all suck. Firing my current may result in someone worse. Not gonna get much for $26/hr in New Jersey.
 
Yeah they all suck. Firing my current may result in someone worse. Not gonna get much for $26/hr in New Jersey.
Wow..

My idea. Go with good staff that you have and fill others with virtual assistants (VAs)

VA can do a lot of what you described
 
I love my two VMA’s. They answer the phones and schedule the incoming referrals. Never call in sick. No professionalism issues ever.
Vmas are definitely the way to go. Get rid of the drama, sick calls, etc.

I know of a local practice that has more vmas than actual MAs
 
Can you train them specifically for your practice?
They can really do anything that does not require face to face involvement. They obviously cant take patient vitals, assist in the procedure room, etc.

They can do any other vital tasks that includes but is not limited to authorizations, patient phone calls, charting, scheduling, prescreening new patients, etc.

From what I have seen, the amount paid is way less than hiring a staff member especially when you factor in things like retirement, health insurance, payroll taxes, etc.
 
Yes. They can do whatever you need them to do. They typically all have experience using various emr’s, office 365, IP phone platforms.
How do you do quality review and assess if theyre doing a good job?
Do all incoming calls go to them and they triage and route as necessary?

Beyond receptionist, what else are you using them for? Prior auth?
 
I can see how many unanswered calls and when they happen on ring central. Have had my mom call at random times. Patients give positive unsolicited feedback on them routinely. They first line answer the phones and schedule the new patients, call the patients that no show, etc. they could do PA if I needed them to. You just need to tell the account manager with MMM what you need/want and they will find someone who can do it.
 
You can use the same metrics that you would use for an in house person. Patients and people trying to do business with you will tell you if your phone is poor (for most of us it is).

A common metric for scheduling folks is percentage of appts kept.

I use Med VA. It's 10-11 per hr but minus taxes and benefits because they pay them. My VA is from Phillipines. Absolutely no issues with her

If you want bilingual they have some from Latin America. Ir costs more but not sure how much.

I found out my billing company gives VAs too at a lower cost but you have to do billing with them. I already had VAs before starting with my billers so I kept them.
 
I can see how many unanswered calls and when they happen on ring central. Have had my mom call at random times. Patients give positive unsolicited feedback on them routinely. They first line answer the phones and schedule the new patients, call the patients that no show, etc. they could do PA if I needed them to. You just need to tell the account manager with MMM what you need/want and they will find someone who can do it.
Game changer. I wish this had been around when I was in pp.
 
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If bilateral RFAs take 30 minutes then you are limited by that.

With multi-lesion generators unilateral take me 5-6 minutes and bilateral 9-11 minutes.

Yes, bilateral shouldn’t take near that long. Couple simple tricks for efficiency that I didn’t pick up until I was out on my own. Inject 2% and let that set up while you do motor testing (this will NOT cause motor blockade/false negative motor stim). While doing the first side lesion, place the contralateral needles. Most patients you should be able to get the last 3 needles walked off bone and ready for lateral before the burn is over. These 2 things save me about 3 minutes per bilateral RFA. That adds up.
 
Just do a real sloppy job. Place all 6 needles in AP, touch os somewhere around the pedicle and burn. I have a partner that does an exorbitant amount of procedures and this is what his RFs look like. Cervical RFs even worse

I think of him when I hear people bragging about doing 20 procedures in a morning. Only possible way to do a good job is if you have unbelievably good staff or two rooms and two c-arms
How does one achieve this level of efficiency? Bilateral RFA's still take me at least 25-30 minutes.
 
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Yes, bilateral shouldn’t take near that long. Couple simple tricks for efficiency that I didn’t pick up until I was out on my own. Inject 2% and let that set up while you do motor testing (this will NOT cause motor blockade/false negative motor stim). While doing the first side lesion, place the contralateral needles. Most patients you should be able to get the last 3 needles walked off bone and ready for lateral before the burn is over. These 2 things save me about 3 minutes per bilateral RFA. That adds up.
Thanks, will implement this.