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collegekid77

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i'm starting medical school next year but i am afraid healthcare is going to suck the life out of me. i love medicine, but i hate healthcare. as residents, i need to ask you if you have a social life and if you actually work 80+ hours a week. i can't do that. i will go insane. i'm considering a PhD in chemistry instead. please just tell me what its actually like working as a post-grad doc so i can make up my mind!
 
You want a life, you think medicine is too hard, and you instead want to get a PhD in chemistry? :laugh:

Look at the typical PhD Chem person and ask which group has more of a life.
 
i'm starting medical school next year but i am afraid healthcare is going to suck the life out of me. i love medicine, but i hate healthcare.

Are you saying that you like medicine intellectually but don't enjoy the day to day work? If that's the case, and its pervasive, then medicine may not be for you.

as residents, i need to ask you if you have a social life and if you actually work 80+ hours a week.

Yes, I did have a social life during residency and regularly worked MORE than 80 hrs per week. During the first 3 years of residency, the 80 hr restrictions were not in force, during the last two years, they were not enforced (by my program). But I was still able to have a social life. Your mileage may vary - you may find yourself in a program which works fewer hours.

It depends on what you define as a "social life". If you mean going out with your friends two or three nights a week, drinking, staying out late...I doubt you will be able to do that. Its just too tiring and you need to study when you get home.

i can't do that. i will go insane.

What? Work 80 hrs a week or go without a social life? Take a look at the adults around you - are most of them partying like they did in college? No. And those that are are not likely to be very successful. Priorities change, people get more tired and they have other responsibilities which take precedence over having a social life. That doesn't mean you won't meet friends, go on trips together, go to dinner, concerts, parties at each other's house. Its just not the social whirl undergrad often is.

i'm considering a PhD in chemistry instead. please just tell me what its actually like working as a post-grad doc so i can make up my mind!

Well, as tibor notes above, a PhD in Chemistry is no picnic and its a lengthy road which requires determination and a great ability to delay gratification.

Pick what interests you the most, not which has the best social life. BTW, since someone here will undoubtedly say it ...physicians get much more play than Chemists (at least the male ones do).:laugh:
 
i'm starting medical school next year but i am afraid healthcare is going to suck the life out of me. i love medicine, but i hate healthcare. as residents, i need to ask you if you have a social life and if you actually work 80+ hours a week. i can't do that. i will go insane. i'm considering a PhD in chemistry instead. please just tell me what its actually like working as a post-grad doc so i can make up my mind!

I made the opposite decision. I was planning on a PhD in chemistry and bailed out once I realized just how much lab work, TAing and other things there were to do. Before choosing chemistry, spend some time in a lab and see what it really takes. There is nothing in medicine that I have found as frustrating as the hours I feel like I wasted in the research lab doing experiment after experiment that didn't work or that provided results that just weren't good enough ("What you only got 50% yield, that won't cut it?").

The PhD candidates did have time to screw around and be social, but they also regularly spent 12-18 or more hours daily in the lab. There were plenty of times that I would come in late, say at 9 or 10 pm to check on my longer running reactions and find plenty of people in the lab working.

I can say that I have far more satisfaction from being a doctor. Sure, there is a heck of a lot of stress, but I find the rewards are better. There is still plenty of research available, both clinical and bench, in all specialties of medicine.

What you might want to do is spend some time with some residents and with some PhD candidates and find out what it is really like. BTW, call can actually be fun...there is nothing like making a few good calls to make your week.
 
yes i like medicine intellectually, i LOVE science... and i want to help people. but it seems like "healthcare" isn't about helping people anymore... its a business (not that socialized medicine is any better, its evil... its still a business, the only thing different is its controlled by Big Brother, and i don't think the government has a right to say who lives or dies) but aside from all that, when its said and done, i need ME time, not necessarily party time... in fact i am not a party person at all. i need at least one day a week with my friends too, just to chill. but who cooks so you don't live out of the vending machine between patients and cleans and does laundry and balances the checkbook, etc. when one is working 19 hours a day? how do you manage a marriage and/or kids? how do you have time to fix your car if you need to or go to the gym so you can stay fit? maybe social life was a bad choice of words... basically, how do you just plain LIVE?
 
Well, I've done both paths (MD/PhD) and can say that my PhD was far more of a time and emotion commitment than my internship has been (IM at a pretty benign program if you're curious).

I worked longer hours and took more work home w/ me (and more stress as well) as a grad student than I did as a med student or do as a resident. I am sure that this will only get worse when I do my research fellowship in a couple of years as at that point I'll be competing for funding and faculty spots.

The major upside to grad school is that you choose your hours and do what you really want to do. As a med student not only are you stuck showing up when you're told to, you also have to do a bunch of things that you hate (Peds and Surgery in my case, YMMV of course). As a grad student, assuming you haven't picked a project or mentor that you hate, you can pretty much pick your (long) hours and you're doing something you care about. As a resident, you should theoretically be doing something you like (except as an intern where you may get stuck on off-service rotations that are like dying a tiny little death every day) but you'll be stuck there on hours you don't necessarily choose.

The long-term picture is something even more important to consider. You'll only be a med/grad student, resident, fellow or post-doc for a (relatively speaking) short period of time. Try to look past the training and imagine yourself 10-15 years down the road. Will you be happy as a physician or a researcher or both?
 
I have been with my SO for the past seven years, through five years of general surgery residency (at a pretty malignant, academic program and half of which was completed prior to the 80 hour work week) and a transplant fellowship. Was it hard? Sure. Did we have different lives than our other non-medical family and friends? Absolutely. Did they always understand? Of course not. But it was manageable. My few thoughts on this topic:

It is better to spend 12 hours at work doing something you love rather than 8 hours doing something you hate. You will feel better on your time off, even if you have less of it.

Residency is temporary, and you should not base decisions on the rest of your life off of the finitie period of time you will spend as a resident. Sure, you'll still work hard as an attending, but your practice type and specialty choice will largely dictate exactly how hard.

When you work that much, you get used to functioning when tired and time off feels different. When he had a day off, we made sure to do fun things and were less likely to sit around and waste the day. In a way, we ended up doing and seeing more since free time was such a commodity. And when he had a full weekend off, it felt like a mini-vacation.

You will likely see your social circle shift a bit once in residency. Not to say you will drop your old friends, but you will make new work related friends who understand the demands you are under (as they will be under them as well) and your social outings will adapt as such. Plus, your colleages (assuming you aren't a total jerk and don't abuse it) will often and to the best of their ability cover for you on those events you HAVE to attend, or if you have to drop the car off, or if you have a doctor's appointment, etc. as they understand there is a lot of karma when it comes to helping each other out in residency. What goes around comes around.

As a resident and fellow (and FWIW, the fellowship hours were far, far worse than the residency hours) there was at least one trip a year to Europe to ski with the college and med school buddies and another trip to climb a mountain somewhere in North/South America or Africa. These things were important to him, and he made sure to make the most out of vacation time. Also, he trained for and ran several marathons and triathlons (currently training for a half Ironman as a fellow). He enjoys cooking and makes sure to cook one "big" dinner at least once a week. Granted, sometimes we may not eat until 11, but we eat well and he gets his "kitchen therapy." He made his "me time" happen, albeit sometimes that meant very early hours or very late nights. We also had season tickets to a local pro team, granted it was a half season since we knew it would be completely unrealistic to plan on attending all, or even most games. Oh, and the garden is beautiful no thanks to me--that is totally him. Overall, he has a very busy but active and fulfilling life outside the hospital.

As far as our relationship, I was working 60-80 hours a week, and then was a medical student who still worked 12-24 hr/week, but we just made the time. Granted, we were in the same hospital so it helped to see each other at work. You learn to roll with the late dinners and unused hockey tickets (at least I did).

Honestly, I think it is amazing what people can be capable of, and humans are adaptable creatures. The work hours are insane for sure, but there is truly still time to do the things that matter the most to you, but yes--sometimes you will have to pick and choose. Some days this stings worse than others. I'm certain that no matter what you decide there will be days you are certain you made the worst mistake of your life just like there will be days you can't believe you get paid to do something you love so much.

And, hey, if you really love medicine but hate healthcare that much to not do a residency you can always go into the public sector and try to change things!🙂
 
yes i like medicine intellectually, i LOVE science... and i want to help people. but it seems like "healthcare" isn't about helping people anymore... its a business (not that socialized medicine is any better, its evil... its still a business, the only thing different is its controlled by Big Brother, and i don't think the government has a right to say who lives or dies) but aside from all that, when its said and done, i need ME time, not necessarily party time... in fact i am not a party person at all. i need at least one day a week with my friends too, just to chill. but who cooks so you don't live out of the vending machine between patients and cleans and does laundry and balances the checkbook, etc. when one is working 19 hours a day? how do you manage a marriage and/or kids? how do you have time to fix your car if you need to or go to the gym so you can stay fit? maybe social life was a bad choice of words... basically, how do you just plain LIVE?

While Bitsy has answered your query much more eloquently than I could, I thought I would add my agreement to her sentiments.

First of all, you aren't working 19 hrs a day, every day. You will work 12-14 on most days, and generally have at least one full day off on the weekends (or during the week) and at least one full two day weekend during the month. Even programs that violate the work hour restrictions generally try and do at least that.

People do have families while in residency and they make that their priority - so while in the hospital they study when they can, so that when home they can spend time with the kids. Long hours are not the sole province of medicine; my father regularly worked 12-14 hrs a day as well and somehow I turned out ok.

So what this means is that you have to be organized when you are off. If you know you are going to be post-call on Wednesday, then that's when you schedule your dentist appointment or to take your car in for a tune-up.

You make sure your refrigerator and cupboards are stocked with food and have some easy to prepare recipes so that when you go home, you aren't picking up Taco Bell on the way.

Gyms in the hospital are nice, but if you don't have one, perhaps your apartment complex will. Heck, you don't need a gym to stay in shape - you can run a few flights up the stairs while in the hospital, ride your bike to work, etc. You have to think a little more broadly.

Believe me, as Bitsy and I understand, life was much much harder in the pre 80 hr workweek. I would often put clothes in the washer, only to return to them 3 days later and find them stinky and have to rewash them. I often fell asleep while having conversations with my SO. But it is much easier now to do the things you need to do as well as the things you want to do.

I won't lie and say that it does take some organization. It was hard for me to get a dentist appointment because a) I didn't know my schedule two months in advance (which is how far out he was scheduling) and b) I never knew if I was really going home post-call during the daylight hours when the dentist worked.

As for hanging out with friends, you might not have a whole day each week to do so, but you can coordinate some of your activities and kill two birds with one stone: meet your friends for a game of football or something else so that you get your exercise in, have them over for dinner and cook lots of extra stuff so that you have it in your freezer for meals to come.

If all the above fails, get a spouse or SO without a demanding job and have them do all the car work, errands, etc for you!
 
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