Questions about Harvard

[iflossdaily2009]

This time of year, it seems that a lot of pre-dental students are facing the dilemma of which dental school to attend. I know that this is definitely my dilemma. I am deciding between UCSF and Harvard. For those of you who are well informed about Harvard School of Dental Medicine, I would certainly appreciate your opinion.

After reading many posts and speaking to students/professors, I am convinced that Harvard is more selective in their admissions process than probably any dental school in the country. However, I can’t help but have a few concerns about the quality of the school.

First, if my sources are accurate, it seems that Harvard has no more than 10 tenured dental faculty while other schools can easily boast twice or triple that number. Why would a dental school that holds so much prestige have such a low number of dental instructors?

Second, many claim that Harvard is known for its excellent research. I realize that the new research building will mark the beginning of a burst of new research. However, why was Harvard ranked #30 in NIDCR funding in 2003 http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Funding/DentalSchools/GrantsToAcademicInstitutions2003.htm ? Yes, it is true that Forsyth was # 1 in funding in 2003 and has been consistently a top receiving institution for years. But Forsyth is not Harvard. It is a Harvard-affiliated institution. If Harvard is so research oriented, then why isn’t it awarded as much funding at schools like UCSF, University of Washington, etc. every year?

Third, I often hear that Harvard has the highest average for part I of the boards. Is it fair though, to compare Harvard’s national board scores with that of other schools that have over 100 students? Would taking the top 35 scores of another school yield comparable results?

I hope that I have not offended anyone with this post. I honestly want to attend Harvard School of Dental Medicine more than anything, but all these questions are keeping me from sending in my decision. Again, I would appreciate any comments that anyone might have on this matter.

Thank you

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[Halitosis]

This time of year, it seems that a lot of pre-dental students are facing the dilemma of which dental school to attend. I know that this is definitely my dilemma. I am deciding between UCSF and Harvard. For those of you who are well informed about Harvard School of Dental Medicine, I would certainly appreciate your opinion.

After reading many posts and speaking to students/professors, I am convinced that Harvard is more selective in their admissions process than probably any dental school in the country. However, I can’t help but have a few concerns about the quality of the school.

First, if my sources are accurate, it seems that Harvard has no more than 10 tenured dental faculty while other schools can easily boast twice or triple that number. Why would a dental school that holds so much prestige have such a low number of dental instructors?

Second, many claim that Harvard is known for its excellent research. I realize that the new research building will mark the beginning of a burst of new research. However, why was Harvard ranked #30 in NIDCR funding in 2003 http://www.nidcr.nih.gov/Funding/DentalSchools/GrantsToAcademicInstitutions2003.htm ? Yes, it is true that Forsyth was # 1 in funding in 2003 and has been consistently a top receiving institution for years. But Forsyth is not Harvard. It is a Harvard-affiliated institution. If Harvard is so research oriented, then why isn’t it awarded as much funding at schools like UCSF, University of Washington, etc. every year?

Third, I often hear that Harvard has the highest average for part I of the boards. Is it fair though, to compare Harvard’s national board scores with that of other schools that have over 100 students? Would taking the top 35 scores of another school yield comparable results?

I hope that I have not offended anyone with this post. I honestly want to attend Harvard School of Dental Medicine more than anything, but all these questions are keeping me from sending in my decision. Again, I would appreciate any comments that anyone might have on this matter.

Thank you

these are my guesses....pls let me know what you guys think.

1) 10 tenured prof only....so they limit class size to 35 only. good ratio.
2) research heavyweights like columbia and harvard are pretty low on that list b/c they don't need funding from nih....they got enough money from alumni donations, etc. again....pure speculation....anyone w/ rebuttal backed by numbers pls let me know.
3) you're right. dr. mcmanus of columbia and dr. alexander of ucsf straight up said if they took the top 35 ppl of their class, board scores would challenge that of harvard or uconn.

 

[dane4695]

these are my guesses....pls let me know what you guys think.

1) 10 tenured prof only....so they limit class size to 35 only. good ratio.
2) research heavyweights like columbia and harvard are pretty low on that list b/c they don't need funding from nih....they got enough money from alumni donations, etc. again....pure speculation....anyone w/ rebuttal backed by numbers pls let me know.
3) you're right. dr. mcmanus of columbia and dr. alexander of ucsf straight up said if they took the top 35 ppl of their class, board scores would challenge that of harvard or uconn.

I pm'd you my two cents.

 

[drat]

Third, I often hear that Harvard has the highest average for part I of the boards. Is it fair though, to compare Harvard’s national board scores with that of other schools that have over 100 students? Would taking the top 35 scores of another school yield comparable results?

Hmmm, this seems silly. The Harvard's class average as a whole is one of the highest average part I scores out of any dental school (At the interview, as you know, you're given this journal publication; the publication looks at PBL vs. a traditional learning program only at Harvard and compares the successes/weaknesses of the two types of learning. One outcome looked at is the average board scores -- part I and II). If a school has 100 students and you take the 35 best scores (roughly the top 1/3 of the class), you may get a number that rivals Harvard's average. But what if you take the top 1/3 of Harvard's class? This "average" will be higher than the original average over the whole class...Of course this is only a reasonable speculation because I obviously don't have every single students' scores from Harvard, Columbia, UCSF, Pacific, etc. Comparing a school's top 35 students to Harvard's 35 students is a moot point, in my opinion; either compare a whole to a whole or 1/3 to a 1/3. All schools have that bottom 1/3 that drag down the average, and Harvard may not be the exception.

As an aside, a class average is not necessarily an indication on how well you'll do on the exam. This isn't news. But, maybe in this case, the high average board score indicates the Harvard adequately prepares its students for the exam, but it could also be the students adequately preparing themselves. You need to be an environment that will allow you to prosper. Harvard has a pass/no pass grading system, a PBL system, classes with the med students, etc...Does this suit you?

P.S. I'll PM you, iflossdaily, with my opinion of Harvard if you're interested.

 

[The Godfather]

I agree with the other posters about board scores. If you took only the top third of some other schools, they would probably have as good or better scores. Also, remember that some schools (especially the private schools) teach "to the test." Imagine taking your undergraduate science classes and spending most of your time on just DAT topics. You'd have a incomplete picture. I'm not saying this about Harvard at all because I'm unfamiliar with their program. I'm just saying that there are schools out there that seemed to be more concerned with board scores than producing dentists that are "good to go" clinically right out of the gate. You need to ask different questions. Do you want to specialize? If that's the case, find out how many of the students wanting to matriculate into speciality programs are placed in such programs. Talk to some of the students there if you can and ask the hard questions, like "what don't you like about the program?" Finally, if you are unsure, go visit the different schools again (and the area where you will be spending four years) and spend some time, talk to the locals, etc. I think it should be easy to decide between two schools. Good Luck, and congratulations on being accepted to two very competitive programs!

 

[harvard asda]

To answer your questions...
First, it is rather difficult to achieve tenure at Harvard. It's something more systemic with the entire university than particularly with the dental school. But other people who responded above are right in saying that since we are such a small school with smaller facilities, it's difficult to house the extra professors. Another point is that our school does not pay our professors as much as many other schools do and so retaining faculty is somewhat of a problem.
Second, you are correct in saying that there is a difference between HSDM and Forsyth. However, many of the researchers at Forsyth have teaching appointments at Harvard and so they teach at HSDM. Also, I can't say what the new building will bring in because I just frankly do not know yet. But as far as research and Forsyth are concerned, it is quite easy to work in one of their laboratories.
Thirdly, about board scores, I think a lot of the responders above were right. You need to compare apples with apples.

If you want my honest and personal opinion, I'm happy at hsdm. It's a free learning environment where you get to pursue your own interests. There is a lot of downtime in the early years so you can do your favorite type of research or whatever else you choose. If you want to specialize, it's a convenient place to go because most of the class matches.

As you can tell, there are many positives and negatives to going to HSDM, just as there are to going to any dental school. So take what you will of this message and feel free to aim me at "harvard asda" if you like. Right now, I'm the only person from our school's ASDA that is using the screen name but hopefully in the very near future, we will be getting other students to give their input.

 

[drat]

Ahhh, it will be wonderful to get some answers/impressions from you (and company) about Harvard.

 

[Mithridates]

iflossdaily, I think you may be looking at the numbers a little too hard.

What was your general impression of harvard? Do you think you might be a little more comfortable there than at UCSF?

Harvard's a great school. There's great dental faculty here. And there are so many opportunities to become involved in research. You shouldn't look too much into specific funding details. HSDM researchers are really happy and enthusiastic about involving students in their projects. I think this level of engagement is exceptionally high at Harvard.

 

[marshall]

I agree that looking at NICDR and NIH funding isn't necessarily a good measure of what's available to you. If there is just one person doing what you want and they're willing to take you on, that's all you need. I found the lab that I worked in at Forsyth to be very welcoming and I've yet to talk to a HSDM student that is not happy.

 

[ItsGavinC]

After reading many posts and speaking to students/professors, I am convinced that Harvard is more selective in their admissions process than probably any dental school in the country.

Since we're painting with broad brushes, I'll say that I believe UW to be much more selective than Harvard. For that matter, I think there are quite a few schools that are more selective than Harvard.

Sorry to hijack your thread.

 

[Sprgrover]

Since we're painting with broad brushes, I'll say that I believe UW to be much more selective than Harvard. For that matter, I think there are quite a few schools that are more selective than Harvard.../QUOTE]

I agree with Gavin.

 

[drat]

Since we're painting with broad brushes, I'll say that I believe UW to be much more selective than Harvard. For that matter, I think there are quite a few schools that are more selective than Harvard.

Oh, Gavin. *yawn*

 

[MSZ]

I have a couple of questions about Harvard. I plan on applying to dental school this spring, and Harvard is definitely one of my top choices. If anyone has some words of advice on what to expect at the interview, how long you typically wait to hear a response, or anything about their PBL curriculum (I've heard about it, but I'm unsure of the details), I would appreciate hearing from you. Also, I don't know if anyone would be able to answer this since you do not sit on the admission committe, but what do you think Harvard looks for in a candidate? My GPA is fine and I did well on my DAT (although, my reading and math were below 20...18 and 17 respectively), I'll be going with a dentist to Jamaica to do dental missionary work, I have quite a few extracurriculars, one of my passions is art and I'm even doing an indpendent study on the evolution of dentition in vertebrates (i'm drawing scientific drawings), blah blah blah. Basically, I was curious what Harvard may ask on an interview or think about when considering an applicant. Thanks so much. Oh, and if anyone who does attend Harvard and wouldn't mind sharing the pros and cons of the school, that would be great. I really think I want to specialize and the P/no P system looks very attractive.

 

[dane4695]

You've got good enough stats for H. Just make sure you got the community service and MAKE SURE you've done research.

Also, but prepaird to answer questions like "why were you listed as third author on this paper rather than 1st or 2nd" I'm sure it's a great school, gl to you.

 

[delicious]

You've got good enough stats for H. Just make sure you got the community service and MAKE SURE you've done research.

Also, but prepaird to answer questions like "why were you listed as third author on this paper rather than 1st or 2nd" I'm sure it's a great school, gl to you.

hey dan4695, where are you going to school next year? You've got some pretty good stats. Let me guess, the University of Alaska at Iditarod?! I go to the University of Sweden at Gäthenburg. Fo-shizza!! Dentistry is my major, but I'm minoring in the culinary arts, specifically how to roast your a$$!! (jk)

 

[drat]

Thanks, Harvard ASDA, for your PM the other day....Very helpful! I have another question that other applicants may wonder about. . .Is it necessary to have a computer at school? If so, would you recommend a laptop over a desktop? Do professors do PowerPoint presentations for lectures? Thanks!

 

[MSZ]

You've got good enough stats for H. Just make sure you got the community service and MAKE SURE you've done research.

Also, but prepaird to answer questions like "why were you listed as third author on this paper rather than 1st or 2nd" I'm sure it's a great school, gl to you.

Thanks Dane. I've participated in Big Brothers/Big Sisters and I'm doing a dental outreach program at a community center at the moment (plus the missionary work in Jamaica) but as far as research, I don't have any yet. I've only worked as a lab technician at a big chemical company over the summer. However, this summer I am working on my thesis and I will be doing research then...is that too late? Thanks for your help.

 

[mnrji]

>It's a free learning environment where you get to pursue your own interests.
>There is a lot of downtime in the early years so you can do your favorite
>type of research or whatever else you choose.

Would you outline what daily or weekly schedule for the first and second year students are like? I heard that most dental schools have classes from 8 am to 5 pm, but HSDM is somewhat different. How different is it?

How many hours a week are you expected to commit to research?

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[harvard asda]

Thanks, Harvard ASDA, for your PM the other day....Very helpful! I have another question that other applicants may wonder about. . .Is it necessary to have a computer at school? If so, would you recommend a laptop over a desktop? Do professors do PowerPoint presentations for lectures? Thanks!

No problem. About the computer. I would say it's pretty much one of the most important things you can have, second to books. There is a tremendous amount of online academic resources at the med school and less so for the dental school, although that is starting to change right now. In terms of a laptop vs. desktop, that's more an issue of personal preference. I personally use a laptop and would say that probably about 60-80% of the students have laptops. Most of them do not use them in lecture to take notes, however.

 

[harvard asda]

>It's a free learning environment where you get to pursue your own interests.
>There is a lot of downtime in the early years so you can do your favorite
>type of research or whatever else you choose.

Would you outline what daily or weekly schedule for the first and second year students are like? I heard that most dental schools have classes from 8 am to 5 pm, but HSDM is somewhat different. How different is it?

How many hours a week are you expected to commit to research?

Thanks so much for your help!

No problem.

It varies year to year. I'm a 2nd year so I'm not personally familiar with the 3rd and 4th year schedules, but from what I hear and see, they go on a more traditional schedule of about 8-9am to 6-7pm. Although for 4th year, much of your schedule depends on the externship sites that you are assigned to.

The 1st and 2nd year schedules are dramatically different. 1st years typically have medical school classes from 8:30am-12:30pm Monday-Friday. Three afternoons a week they will have afterrnoon commitments, one for a Patient-Doctor interviewing course from about 1-3pm (some are 2-4, if I remember correctly) and the other two afternoons (Tuesdays and Thursdays, typically) are for dental classes at 1-3pm. So to tally it all up, 1st years are typically done by 3pm on Monday, by 3pm on Tuesday, by 12:30 on Wednesday, 3pm on Thursday, 12:30 on Friday.

2nd years have the same morning schedule with the medical school classes. There is also dental school class 2X/week for 2 hours, similar to 1st years. The Patient Doctor course for 2nd years is all afternoon from about 1pm-5/6pm, and starting in February for about a month and a half, it will be one full day (9am-5pm). In the fall, there is a psychopathology course that we take that occupies another afternoon. To tally this up, a 2nd year is done by 5pm on Monday (during Psychopathology in the fall), otherwise it's 12:30pm, 3pm on Tuesday, 5-6pm on Wednesday, 3pm on Thursday, and 12:30pm on Fridays.

I hope I haven't been too confusing.

 

[MSZ]

harvard asda, I was wondering if you had any input on some of the posts I had listed previously on this thread (about getting in, what the curriculum was like, etc.) I would really appreciate your advice/comments. Thanks

 

[harvard asda]

I have a couple of questions about Harvard. I plan on applying to dental school this spring, and Harvard is definitely one of my top choices. If anyone has some words of advice on what to expect at the interview, how long you typically wait to hear a response, or anything about their PBL curriculum (I've heard about it, but I'm unsure of the details), I would appreciate hearing from you. Also, I don't know if anyone would be able to answer this since you do not sit on the admission committe, but what do you think Harvard looks for in a candidate? My GPA is fine and I did well on my DAT (although, my reading and math were below 20...18 and 17 respectively), I'll be going with a dentist to Jamaica to do dental missionary work, I have quite a few extracurriculars, one of my passions is art and I'm even doing an indpendent study on the evolution of dentition in vertebrates (i'm drawing scientific drawings), blah blah blah. Basically, I was curious what Harvard may ask on an interview or think about when considering an applicant. Thanks so much. Oh, and if anyone who does attend Harvard and wouldn't mind sharing the pros and cons of the school, that would be great. I really think I want to specialize and the P/no P system looks very attractive.

Harvard just like every other school has the first release date of admissions decisions on December 1st. They wait until they have a good look at the later applicants that come in January and February and then start taking people off the waitlist when they're done. The interview when I did it was pretty standard. If you say you did research, make sure you're able to talk about it fluently. There were no trick questions and the interviewers were nice.

The PBL curriculum is where there is less emphasis on lecture and more emphasis on small group learning. In the medical school curriculum, we typically have 1-2 lectures a day for about an hour each. Then with the rest of the time, there are either lab sessions in small groups or tutorials where we discuss the presentation history of a patient and analyze the relavant material. The dental school classes have a similar structure, except it's two-hour blocks (one hour of lecture and one hour of tutorial), twice a week.

I can't say about what they look for in applicants. I can say that from what I see in my class, they don't have a mold that their accepted students fit. The class is very diverse in interests in backgrounds so I don't think you can "engineer" a perfect application. Just do what makes you happy and be able to express it enthusiastically on the AADSAS and the interview.

Every school has its pros and cons and I don't think Harvard is an exception. Some faculty are better than others. Sometimes, you feel like a medical student more than a dental student. Sometimes you want more guidance in a class or your education in general. But on the other hand, there is a large amount of free time that we're given to explore and pursue our interests. The faculty that are engaged in the school are great. The research opportunities are mind-boggling.

I'm definitely happy here. I think most people would say that they are happy, as well. There are people who may not like it, but I think that if you asked them where else they would be happier, they probably couldn't give you an answer (except for the Californians who just want it to be warmer!). Not to say that they are wrong in their inability to come up with an answer. But it begs the question, would they be happy anywhere? That's my personal take on it. I'm sure all schools have similar students and it definitely fluctuates by the time of year. For example, if you catch students right before a final or boards, I probably don't even need to explain the kind of response you would get.

I hope this has helped. If you have anymore questions, please ask.

 

[BUBBLICIOUS]

Thanks for this information..So from my understanding, HSDM accepts people before Dec 1, then interviews again in Dec, Jan, and Feb but places these interviewees all on the waitlist? And then In march they pick the last spots off the waitlist that has accumulated??? So all all interviewees from Dec-Mar automatically go on the waitlist until it is decision time again???? If you can answer, tha would be great

Harvard just like every other school has the first release date of admissions decisions on December 1st. They wait until they have a good look at the later applicants that come in January and February and then start taking people off the waitlist when they're done. The interview when I did it was pretty standard. If you say you did research, make sure you're able to talk about it fluently. There were no trick questions and the interviewers were nice.

The PBL curriculum is where there is less emphasis on lecture and more emphasis on small group learning. In the medical school curriculum, we typically have 1-2 lectures a day for about an hour each. Then with the rest of the time, there are either lab sessions in small groups or tutorials where we discuss the presentation history of a patient and analyze the relavant material. The dental school classes have a similar structure, except it's two-hour blocks (one hour of lecture and one hour of tutorial), twice a week.

I can't say about what they look for in applicants. I can say that from what I see in my class, they don't have a mold that their accepted students fit. The class is very diverse in interests in backgrounds so I don't think you can "engineer" a perfect application. Just do what makes you happy and be able to express it enthusiastically on the AADSAS and the interview.

Every school has its pros and cons and I don't think Harvard is an exception. Some faculty are better than others. Sometimes, you feel like a medical student more than a dental student. Sometimes you want more guidance in a class or your education in general. But on the other hand, there is a large amount of free time that we're given to explore and pursue our interests. The faculty that are engaged in the school are great. The research opportunities are mind-boggling.

I'm definitely happy here. I think most people would say that they are happy, as well. There are people who may not like it, but I think that if you asked them where else they would be happier, they probably couldn't give you an answer (except for the Californians who just want it to be warmer!). Not to say that they are wrong in their inability to come up with an answer. But it begs the question, would they be happy anywhere? That's my personal take on it. I'm sure all schools have similar students and it definitely fluctuates by the time of year. For example, if you catch students right before a final or boards, I probably don't even need to explain the kind of response you would get.

I hope this has helped. If you have anymore questions, please ask.

 

[drat]

Thanks for this information..So from my understanding, HSDM accepts people before Dec 1, then interviews again in Dec, Jan, and Feb but places these interviewees all on the waitlist? And then In march they pick the last spots off the waitlist that has accumulated??? So all all interviewees from Dec-Mar automatically go on the waitlist until it is decision time again???? If you can answer, tha would be great

No, when I interviewed mid-Dec, my interviewer said that 60 applicants had been interviewed prior to Dec. 1 and ~20 acceptances were sent out/called on Dec. 1. Approximately 60 more students would be interviewed Dec, Jan, and Feb (maybe March??) and ~25 more people would be offer acceptances. I don't know how many people would be offered waitlist positions.

P.S. I specifically asked this question during my interview and these were the numbers divulged.

 

[MSZ]

Harvard just like every other school has the first release date of admissions decisions on December 1st. They wait until they have a good look at the later applicants that come in January and February and then start taking people off the waitlist when they're done. The interview when I did it was pretty standard. If you say you did research, make sure you're able to talk about it fluently. There were no trick questions and the interviewers were nice.

The PBL curriculum is where there is less emphasis on lecture and more emphasis on small group learning. In the medical school curriculum, we typically have 1-2 lectures a day for about an hour each. Then with the rest of the time, there are either lab sessions in small groups or tutorials where we discuss the presentation history of a patient and analyze the relavant material. The dental school classes have a similar structure, except it's two-hour blocks (one hour of lecture and one hour of tutorial), twice a week.

I can't say about what they look for in applicants. I can say that from what I see in my class, they don't have a mold that their accepted students fit. The class is very diverse in interests in backgrounds so I don't think you can "engineer" a perfect application. Just do what makes you happy and be able to express it enthusiastically on the AADSAS and the interview.

Every school has its pros and cons and I don't think Harvard is an exception. Some faculty are better than others. Sometimes, you feel like a medical student more than a dental student. Sometimes you want more guidance in a class or your education in general. But on the other hand, there is a large amount of free time that we're given to explore and pursue our interests. The faculty that are engaged in the school are great. The research opportunities are mind-boggling.

I'm definitely happy here. I think most people would say that they are happy, as well. There are people who may not like it, but I think that if you asked them where else they would be happier, they probably couldn't give you an answer (except for the Californians who just want it to be warmer!). Not to say that they are wrong in their inability to come up with an answer. But it begs the question, would they be happy anywhere? That's my personal take on it. I'm sure all schools have similar students and it definitely fluctuates by the time of year. For example, if you catch students right before a final or boards, I probably don't even need to explain the kind of response you would get.

I hope this has helped. If you have anymore questions, please ask.

Thank you harvard asda. You've helped a lot. I was just curious if research was a prerequiste. Other than that, I appreciate your very complete response.

 

[harvard asda]

Thank you harvard asda. You've helped a lot. I was just curious if research was a prerequiste. Other than that, I appreciate your very complete response.

No, research is not required. No admissions committee, as far as I know, requires research experience. Now, some committees would really like to see research experience and some committees do not care about it as much. Just like with most everything else, there isn't that much black and white, just shades of gray.

 

[fleisch]

Anyone heard from Harvard lately? I interviewed Dec 3rd, and I am anxiously waiting to hear back! Let me know if you've heard anything ! Thanks!!

 

[drat]

Anyone heard from Harvard lately? I interviewed Dec 3rd, and I am anxiously waiting to hear back! Let me know if you've heard anything ! Thanks!!

Hey, fleisch...interviewed mid dec. and got an acceptance a tad before Christmas. BUBBILICIOUS interviewed on dec. 3 and i think he/she recently (last week or two) found out he/she was waitlisted.

 

[fleisch]

Hey, fleisch...interviewed mid dec. and got an acceptance a tad before Christmas. BUBBILICIOUS interviewed on dec. 3 and i think he/she recently (last week or two) found out he/she was waitlisted.

Hey drat....when you got accepted did they call, write, or email??? Also, are you going to be attending???

 

[drat]

Hey drat....when you got accepted did they call, write, or email??? Also, are you going to be attending???

The director called and a letter came 2 days later. I'm 100% uncertain to which school I will be attending...I got accepted to Minnesota earlier this week, which totally surprised me, and I am still going to my Michigan interview later this month. If you asked me last week where I'm going, I would have said I was 75% certain it'd be Harvard -- but now I'm completely clueless. Ugh! Minnesota was my dream because that's where I want to live/practice eventually. I'll keep you posted.