Questions for Harvard Graduates?

[Linden00]

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If you have graduated from HSDM and do not mind talking to me about your experience .... namely:

1. Was the cost worth it in the end?

2. What type of dentistry are you doing now?

3. Where are you practicing?


I am happy to talk via pm

Thanks

 

[Thunderdome23]

Why are you asking? Are you going to Harvard next year?

 

[Linden00]

Why are you asking? Are you going to Harvard next year?

Yes, most likely. Still trying to decide.

 

[Thunderdome23]

do you think you may want to specialize?

 

[Linden00]

do you think you may want to specialize?

Right now I do.... however, I am not positive. But I have always seen myself as someone who would want to teach as a semi-retirement kind of job.

 

[Thunderdome23]

If you think there is a chance you may want to specialize and/or teach, as you just said, you should go to Harvard, hands down. It opens doors like you wouldn't believe.

 

[Linden00]

If you think there is a chance you may want to specialize and/or teach, as you just said, you should go to Harvard, hands down. It opens doors like you wouldn't believe.

I hope you do not mind me asking, feel free to not answer if you prefer. Was the increased cost of Harvard an issue for you. I ask only because I will have to fully fund myself...i.e. school loans

 

[Thunderdome23]

I hope you do not mind me asking, feel free to not answer if you prefer. Was the increased cost of Harvard an issue for you. I ask only because I will have to fully fund myself...i.e. school loans

Most students take out loans. Harvard is not extraordinarily expensive, but it's not cheap. I am in residency to specialize so I have not started repaying my loans yet, but I am not worried. It is not a problem for most people, especially given the salaries we make.

 

[senpai]

Most students take out loans. Harvard is not extraordinarily expensive, but it's not cheap. I am in residency to specialize so I have not started repaying my loans yet, but I am not worried. It is not a problem for most people, especially given the salaries we make.

Ignorance is bliss!!! We'll see if you say the same thing in 5 or 10 years...

 

[servitup]

Nobody cares where you went to dental school. I assure you that you will be best served by attending the least expensive school you can get into. The rest of your career will be up to you, completely independent of the school you attend.

 

[Thunderdome23]

Nobody cares where you went to dental school. I assure you that you will be best served by attending the least expensive school you can get into. The rest of your career will be up to you, completely independent of the school you attend.

True, but with the exception of Harvard.

 

[armorshell]

True, but with the exception of Harvard.

Equivocal at best

 

[Thunderdome23]

Equivocal at best

What does that mean? You think it's thought of as a lesser school by residency programs?

 

[armorshell]

What does that mean? You think it's thought of as a lesser school by residency programs?

It think (as well as many others) that it's not well established that Harvard offers anything tangible to boost or elevate a dental career. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that even if there were a tangible benefit that it would be worth the additional cost over say, a state school.

 

[Thunderdome23]

It think (as well as many others) that it's not well established that Harvard offers anything tangible to boost or elevate a dental career. Furthermore, I seriously doubt that even if there were a tangible benefit that it would be worth the additional cost over say, a state school.

We can really only speak truthfully of the school we attended. Speaking from experience, it certainly gets you noticed and singled out on the interview trail and by patients. The school offers more medical education than any other school, which is most definitely a "tangible boost". And it is not as expensive as everyone thinks. Over a state school, it's worth the money if you want to specialize.

 

[armorshell]

We can really only speak truthfully of the school we attended. Speaking from experience, it certainly gets you noticed and singled out on the interview trail and by patients. The school offers more medical education than any other school, which is most definitely a "tangible boost". And it is not as expensive as everyone thinks. Over a state school, it's worth the money if you want to specialize.

If any of this is truly tangible, than it should be simple for you to quantify it. If it's simply your personal, anecdotal experience, than we're stuck at equivocal.

How much is more "medical education" worth? How much of an advantage does Harvard give you towards attaining a spot in a specialty program if the same person were to attend a state school? What's the monetary gain? How do you, personally, account for the selection bias Harvard applies towards the success of it's graduates? What are your thoughts about the Kreugar-Dale thesis?

Also, why can we only truthfully speak about the school we attended?

 

[txlonghorn]

If any of this is truly tangible, than it should be simple for you to quantify it. If it's simply your personal, anecdotal experience, than we're stuck at equivocal.

How much is more "medical education" worth? How much of an advantage does Harvard give you towards attaining a spot in a specialty program if the same person were to attend a state school? What's the monetary gain? How do you, personally, account for the selection bias Harvard applies towards the success of it's graduates? What are your thoughts about the Kreugar-Dale thesis?

Also, why can we only truthfully speak about the school we attended?

I think there was a study done that compared students based on aptitude rather than just acceptance to top universities, which showed that attending a top school did affect income. The reasoning was that the connection made at top schools mattered.

I believe it would be very difficult to quantify the benefits of attending Harvard over other schools, as it would require a study to be done. However, I am sure that listing Harvard educated, etc. should help in marketing yourself. While it is not right to assume so, the lay person would think being treated by a ivy educated dentist would be better. I use to work in the consulting industry, and I remember one dentist that went to UPenn marketed at our office saying that she was ivy educated. Many of the people that I worked with went to her and thought highly of her cause she went to UPenn. While it might not be right, perception matters. Is the extra 50-100k worth it? I thought it was, so I am going there.


Edit: the study was by Hoxby
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15446

 

[gryffindor]

I think there was a study done that compared students based on aptitude rather than just acceptance to top universities, which showed that attending a top school did affect income. The reasoning was that the connection made at top schools mattered.

I believe it would be very difficult to quantify the benefits of attending Harvard over other schools, as it would require a study to be done. However, I am sure that listing Harvard educated, etc. should help in marketing yourself. While it is not right to assume so, the lay person would think being treated by a ivy educated dentist would be better. I use to work in the consulting industry, and I remember one dentist that went to UPenn marketed at our office saying that she was ivy educated. Many of the people that I worked with went to her and thought highly of her cause she went to UPenn. While it might not be right, perception matters. Is the extra 50-100k worth it? I thought it was, so I am going there.

Edit: the study was by Hoxby
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15446

This was a small subset of likely college-educated patients at your consulting firm who were impressed by "Penn" credentials. The majority of your patients will confuse Penn for Penn State (and I practice less than 90 minutes from Philly). I have seen some doctors advertise themselves as "Harvard trained" but I would bet that it is not the deciding factor that gets patients in the door.

 

[txlonghorn]

I have seen some doctors advertise themselves as "Harvard trained" but I would be money that it is not the deciding factor that gets patients in the door.

I agree, but it might matter to some. Hell, I picked my dentist by looking at the distance closest to my home.

 

[Thunderdome23]

I'm sorry, but you guys are analyzing this way too much. This is not a literature review, or a "quantifiable" study. It's common sense. We live in a society dominated by brand-name worship, whether it's the clothes we buy or the ivy league schools we attend. Names matter. The person who says it doesn't either didn't go to an ivy league school or doesn't own a Louis Vuitton wallet. The point is you can't honestly say "oh ,well if you cant scientifically quantify the precise tangible manifestations of the ramifications of the ivy league name than it doesn't exist." (as you adjust the nose-piece of your glasses). Get real guys, it matters. I am telling you from experience. So if you didn't go to an ivy league school you have no idea what your talking about, sorry.

 

[gryffindor]

I'm sorry, but you guys are analyzing this way too much. This is not a literature review, or a "quantifiable" study. It's common sense. We live in a society dominated by brand-name worship, whether it's the clothes we buy or the ivy league schools we attend. Names matter. The person who says it doesn't either didn't go to an ivy league school or doesn't own a Louis Vuitton wallet. The point is you can't honestly say "oh ,well if you cant scientifically quantify the precise tangible manifestations of the ramifications of the ivy league name than it doesn't exist." (as you adjust the nose-piece of your glasses). Get real guys, it matters. I am telling you from experience. So if you didn't go to an ivy league school you have no idea what your talking about, sorry.

Names matter at consulting firms and big businesses. Names take a far back seat at small business operations which is what nearly all dental services are except for the behemoth dental insurance companies.

I've had Ivy educated dental colleagues ask me for student loan survival advice. Too bad the patients aren't beating down their doors thanks to their pedigrees. What does an Ivy degree have to do with an LV wallet?

(Maybe I should ask my spouse since he has one of each. )

 

[Dentinmyarmor]

lol these crack me up.

Yes it matters a bit, forget patients how about candidates wanting to go to harvard. Yea most didn't get into harvard, but I also know, personally, 2 people (anecdote ofcourse) not even getting into their state school getting into harvard. Harvard took their BS pill of volunteering places and working as "leaders" blah blah and admitted them on a 22 DAT (good score but not earth shattering or anything) - they were however non-traditional and had some "real life experience" that harvard goes ga ga over. Candidates jizzed their pants and went to harvard. How about the name mattering to the candidates for ego purposes? Oh before anyone calls me out as not getting in - I am at an Ivy and on 1/2 tuition paid in scholarships and didn't go to harvard (did interview there) because well I didn't get any scholarship/grants.

A study to prove this? what are investigators gonna do? prospective trial? psh there would be huge selection bias to begin with any ways.

Also if one is going to harvard, you specialize, and if you specialize, harvard opens doors. HOWEVER, just like your "personal experience" it is MY personal observance/experience (from family members that are dentists and doctors) that almost ALL of your referals are dentists in practice (yea, OMFS, you still don't get referred by MDs, sorry). and thus good local connections and business savvy will matter. You are sort of their b!tch if you will.

If you are headed to academics - well good - harvard will definitely help. Also good luck driving a beat up corolla on 1/4 the pay.

my 2 cents. Absolutely with gryffindor on this.

 

[Thunderdome23]

I'm not talking about UPENN or Columbia, I'm talking about Harvard. All of you who think you know what it is like and how you are treated by patients or at an interview by having gone to this school have no idea. I am speaking from experience. If I went to any other school I could speak intelligently about that school, but I don't. So don't pretend you know something that you really don't. I am not bashing or putting down other schools, so if you're taking offense to this, you're reading it wrong. I am giving you my honest answer here. This is mostly for those interested in attending this school and what advantages it brings with it. I realize these kind of threads are bound to bring out the haters..don't be one.

 

[Dentinmyarmor]

I'm not talking about UPENN or Columbia, I'm talking about Harvard. All of you who think you know what it is like and how you are treated by patients or at an interview by having gone to this school have no idea. I am speaking from experience. If I went to any other school I could speak intelligently about that school, but I don't. So don't pretend you know something that you really don't. I am not bashing or putting down other schools, so if you're taking offense to this, you're reading it wrong. I am giving you my honest answer here. This is mostly for those interested in attending this school and what advantages it brings with it. I realize these kind of threads are bound to bring out the haters..don't be one.

no offense taken. You are sticking to your guns. Thats fine. I don't know what I am talking about? ok. You are right pal. For real. I was opinionating with n=1 experience of mine. I will be sure to run a trial saying I went to harvard and note reactions. In the mean time, good luck and have fun. No sarcasm. I don't want fights, but this is a forum - and we discuss topics like these. Also, OFCOURSE harvard is a bigger name than Upenn and columbia - duh. I was talking about practical implications and what dentists/specialists in my family told me from their experience.

lol @ brings out the haters - fine I am a hater. 😎

 

[armorshell]

I think there was a study done that compared students based on aptitude rather than just acceptance to top universities, which showed that attending a top school did affect income. The reasoning was that the connection made at top schools mattered.

I believe it would be very difficult to quantify the benefits of attending Harvard over other schools, as it would require a study to be done. However, I am sure that listing Harvard educated, etc. should help in marketing yourself. While it is not right to assume so, the lay person would think being treated by a ivy educated dentist would be better. I use to work in the consulting industry, and I remember one dentist that went to UPenn marketed at our office saying that she was ivy educated. Many of the people that I worked with went to her and thought highly of her cause she went to UPenn. While it might not be right, perception matters. Is the extra 50-100k worth it? I thought it was, so I am going there.


Edit: the study was by Hoxby
http://www.nber.org/papers/w15446

There heave actually been several studies done trying to quantify attending 'top schools'. The one you listed isn't one of them, but it does give a brief mention to a few in the discussion. Generally, the literature is, surprise, equivocal (Unless you're of low economic status).

Further, generally these studies are pointed towards looking at financial success after undergraduate degrees. In these situations, the oft posited 'connections' could come into play as an important factor. The problem is, we're talking about dentistry here. A field dominated by small businesses. What value are any Harvard connections you make going to be when the eventual goal is ownership of a small business? How is that going to translate into financial success?

 

[armorshell]

I'm sorry, but you guys are analyzing this way too much. This is not a literature review, or a "quantifiable" study. It's common sense.

Great to know that Harvard has instilled such an appreciation for science, economics and critical thinking. Accepting something simply because it's "common sense" is akin to lunacy. If you lived at the right point in history it would be common sense that you'd cure your flu by going to the barber and getting a vein opened up to let the "bad blood' out.


This is quantifiable, and many people have spent significant amounts of time analyzing whether or not school choice matters IRT success.

We live in a society dominated by brand-name worship, whether it's the clothes we buy or the ivy league schools we attend. Names matter. The person who says it doesn't either didn't go to an ivy league school or doesn't own a Louis Vuitton wallet.

Remind me, who's number one on the Fortune 500 again? Who's the number one retailer in America? Check it out and ask yourself if brand name really matters to the majority of Americans, or just to your peer group.

The point is you can't honestly say "oh ,well if you cant scientifically quantify the precise tangible manifestations of the ramifications of the ivy league name than it doesn't exist." (as you adjust the nose-piece of your glasses).

I find it slightly amusing that I'm being accused of what amounts to academic elitism by someone espousing the necessary benefits of academic elitism.

Anyway, I can and absolutely will deny any association until you can illuminate some tangible benefit of 'Ivy league name" in Dentistry, because no clear benefits exist. You're the one making the claims, it's your responsibility to support them.

Question everything, don't trust anyone over 30.

Get real guys, it matters. I am telling you from experience. So if you didn't go to an ivy league school you have no idea what your talking about, sorry.

If that's the best you can do to justify your stance, you've already lost the battle. "You can't possibly know because you're not in the club" and "Trust my anecdotal experience, it's all you need to know" aren't gonna do it for anyone who has even a remotely critical outlook on life.

 

[Thunderdome23]

Armorshell,

I wasn't talking about financial success. I'm talking about getting into residency, and the fact that the name makes a difference, period. Patients are impressed by it, other doctors are impressed by it. Patients tell their friends, doctors are impressed with the name and if all things equal people prefer an ivy league educated doctor over somewhat who is not. Before you respond, let me emphasize that I said "all things equal." and no I cannot back up my claims with a study, but step out of pubmed for a second and realize hat not all things that are true were researched and studied. Somethings are just common sense, and this is one of them.

 

[Thunderdome23]

Do me a favor and just answer this question: If you are going under the knife to have facial surgery performed and you are choosing between two surgeons, both of whom seem confident, knowledgeable, and hav excellent bed-side manner, but one went to Harvard and the other went to a school you never heard of, who would you honestly choose?

 

[armorshell]

I'm not talking about UPENN or Columbia, I'm talking about Harvard. All of you who think you know what it is like and how you are treated by patients or at an interview by having gone to this school have no idea. I am speaking from experience. If I went to any other school I could speak intelligently about that school, but I don't. So don't pretend you know something that you really don't. I am not bashing or putting down other schools, so if you're taking offense to this, you're reading it wrong. I am giving you my honest answer here. This is mostly for those interested in attending this school and what advantages it brings with it. I realize these kind of threads are bound to bring out the haters..don't be one.

You have to admit, The Dude has a point. Seriously, none of us are pretending to know anything about any other school. Educate us. Tell us how it is. But don't get upset that your personal experience isn't going to be regarded as incredibly valuable by a critical eye, because that's exactly what it is. Personal. Experience.

Additionally, I despise being called a "hater", for simply pointing out there's no clear connection between attending an Ivy league dental school and success in dentistry and that personal experience is mostly irrelevant. I don't hate Ivy league schools, I just don't see the 'real world' value in them.

There are lots of great reasons to attend Ivy league schools that actually exist in real life. The institutions are storied and ancient centers of learning, and carry a great deal of history. They select only the brightest of students, so you can immerse yourself in a congress of the best dentistry and medicine have to offer. They're located in interesting cultural centers. There is some unquantified "street cred" that you muster if you've trained at an Ivy league institution. Ivy league schools seems to have strong family traditions.

I'm not a hater. I'm just someone who had to make this same decision (Ivy vs. non) and an honest appraisal of the critical evidence led me down another path. I have the utmost respect for Harvard graduates. In fact, now that I think about it, it was almost exclusively Harvard graduates who led me to understand the position I hold about Ivy league schools today.

 

[armorshell]

Armorshell,

I wasn't talking about financial success. I'm talking about getting into residency, and the fact that the name makes a difference, period.

Okay, prove it. Make sure to account for the wild amount of selection bias.

Patients tell their friends, doctors are impressed with the name and if all things equal people prefer an ivy league educated doctor over somewhat who is not.

If part of your marketing strategy towards your referring dentists is going to be "I attended an Ivy league school", then I'll be happy to compete for your referrals. We're talking about dentists here, and the great majority of them aren't Ivy league trained. Claiming superiority secondary to a pedigree they don't have isn't going to win you any friends. Referring dentists, and patients, want results, and I would prefer a program that's going to guarantee me results than one that guarantees me a pedigree.

Before you respond, let me emphasize that I said "all things equal." and no I cannot back up my claims with a study, but step out of pubmed for a second and realize hat not all things that are true were researched and studied. Somethings are just common sense, and this is one of them.

I disagree that this is common sense, and that relegates us to the realm of critical debate. I submit what I said above, that dentistry represents a field in which pedigree is far less important than almost every other factor imaginable. I'll admit that in an imaginary "all-things-being-equal-except-pedigree" situation (Which never exists in reality), maybe it would come into play, but it would be further down the list than say, the ease and access of parking around your office. That being said, in the real world I don't believe the return in investing in a private dental school could possibly be worth it solely on 'name' alone.

 

[armorshell]

Do me a favor and just answer this question: If you are going under the knife to have facial surgery performed and you are choosing between two surgeons, both of whom seem confident, knowledgeable, and hav excellent bed-side manner, but one went to Harvard and the other went to a school you never heard of, who would you honestly choose?

I would do a far more thorough vetting than just my impressions on a face-to face greet and a cursory search of their CV. I do more than that when I'm looking for a car mechanic, let alone someone I'm going to let cut open my body.

I'd want to see results (which they should have in an easily accessible format, offered without hesitation), talk to former patients, talk to my referring provider if I had one, see what the internet has to say, etc...

Though really, I've clearly thought this through a great deal and am a confessed critic so asking me probably wasn't the best strategy.

 

[Thunderdome23]

Armorshell,

You do a lot of dancing around with fancy words and asking me to prove every statement, but geez man just be honest with yourself; patients and doctors feel a sense of trust and comfort in the ivy league name, whether it is warranted or not. This is reality. Will it make ppl wealthier? Probably not, but it demands a blind sense of respect and trust even before the patient or doctor ever sees a glimpse of your work.

 

[armorshell]

Armorshell,

You do a lot of dancing around with fancy words and asking me to prove every statement, but geez man just be honest with yourself; patients and doctors feel a sense of trust and comfort in the ivy league name, whether it is warranted or not. This is reality. Will it make ppl wealthier? Probably not, but it demands a blind sense of respect and trust even before the patient or doctor ever sees a glimpse of your work.

If that's your attitude that you're going to have towards your referring doctors (That they should or will have a 'blind sense of respect and trust towards your work') because of your dental school training implies an intense disrespect towards their abilities to evaluate good dentistry. I think you'll find this is far from true once you examine what determines referral patterns in the real world.

As far as patients, I personally don't want patients that have blind faith in me. Faith is gullibility. I want patients who trust me, who trust the person who referred them to me, who've examined me, spoken with me and decided I'm the right one for them

And I deeply apologize for asking you to provide evidence. I'm sorry I feel that people should be able to defend what they claim with proof. I'll try to refrain from critical thinking in the future and rely more prominently on 'gut feelings', 'personal experience' and 'common sense' to guide me.

You can't justify what you're saying. At least give me something. Have you ever talked to GPs about what they look for when they're referring? Not great evidence but at least it's something (I have by the way, and I think you'd be disappointed by the results. I won't mention it though since it's not rigorous). What about the multitude of studies that have been mentioned by me and txlonghorn? Ever read any of those? Better level of evidence.

There is a lot you could be doing and a lot you could be saying. But you simply prefer to claim that personal experience and common sense is more important than evidence. This is starting to sound like a religious argument.

You ask me to be honest with myself and admit to something I see no real evidence for in Dentistry (Law? Business? Sure seems like name matters, but I haven't really looked into it.) I ask you to be honest with yourself and admit that you've come to a conclusion non-critically and can't support what you believe, but continue to believe it anyway.

 

[armorshell]

Thunderdome, IIRC you're in a 4 year program. None of this should matter anyway then, since you don't have an MD. There are DDS, MD OMS out there, and patients/referring dentists definitely prefer to refer to those OMS. When patients find out you have an MD it really increases their trust and comfort in you as a provider and all things being equal people prefer an OMS who has an MD over one who doesn't.

It's totally all worth the two years and cost to get the MD too. I'd invite you to comment, but you can't really know anything about it since you aren't in an MD program.

/end sarcasm

 

[servitup]

I would say this: if you are smart enough to get into Harvard then you will do well enough in your local state school to specialize in any specialty and go wherever you want. Therefore, Harvard itself doesn't make the person, the people there make Harvard.

Also, as to choosing a specialist, people put a lot more into where you trained than where you went to school. In general, doing a medical residency at Harvard would give you a leg up over the guy who did one at Podunk community hospital but no one knows or cares where you went to school.

 

[Thunderdome23]

Thunderdome, IIRC you're in a 4 year program. None of this should matter anyway then, since you don't have an MD. There are DDS, MD OMS out there, and patients/referring dentists definitely prefer to refer to those OMS. When patients find out you have an MD it really increases their trust and comfort in you as a provider and all things being equal people prefer an OMS who has an MD over one who doesn't.

It's totally all worth the two years and cost to get the MD too. I'd invite you to comment, but you can't really know anything about it since you aren't in an MD program.

/end sarcasm

What makes you think I'm in a 4yr program? And wow man you have a complex here. You are seriously taking offense to what I am saying based on your post. Not only does this show you are so serious about your sdn discussion with a complete stranger that you would research my posts, but you are now trying to put something in my face to prove to urself that its okay u didnt get into an ivy league school because ur smart enough to plunge 100k into a medical education to practice in a field that doesnt require it, nor change ur scope of practice (minus fellowships). I didnt go to Harvard because of an ego i have, but it certainly sounds like thats why ur getting the md. Good job! For someone in med school u should really use ur time to study medicine instead of spending so much time researching sdn posts and reading the
dictionary. More than anything i would want a futre omfs who actually spent their time wisely, u sound like an immature kid wih a little man complex. Maybe u should have gone to the ivy school, it would have helped ur self confidence. Just food for thought.

 

[gigawatt]

What makes you think I'm in a 4yr program? And wow man you have a complex here. You are seriously taking offense to what I am saying based on your post. Not only does this show you are so serious about your sdn discussion with a complete stranger that you would research my posts, but you are now trying to put something in my face to prove to urself that its okay u didnt get into an ivy league school because ur smart enough to plunge 100k into a medical education to practice in a field that doesnt require it, nor change ur scope of practice (minus fellowships). I didnt go to Harvard because of an ego i have, but it certainly sounds like thats why ur getting the md. Good job! For someone in med school u should really use ur time to study medicine instead of spending so much time researching sdn posts and reading the
dictionary. More than anything i would want a futre omfs who actually spent their time wisely, u sound like an immature kid wih a little man complex. Maybe u should have gone to the ivy school, it would have helped ur self confidence. Just food for thought.

Dude, for a Harvard grad, you're mighty slow on the up-take. Armor's just re-framing your Harvard/non-Harvard argument as a MD/non-MD argument (and using your preferred type of support) to show you how ridiculous it is. He's an SDN moderator, so I not surprised he knows his way around, but he's got no "complex," trust me.

And Thunder, you keep saying that Harvard opened up doors in residency application...which program are you at? and are all of your co-residents from Harvard as well?

 

[armorshell]

What makes you think I'm in a 4yr program? And wow man you have a complex here. You are seriously taking offense to what I am saying based on your post. Not only does this show you are so serious about your sdn discussion with a complete stranger that you would research my posts, but you are now trying to put something in my face to prove to urself that its okay u didnt get into an ivy league school because ur smart enough to plunge 100k into a medical education to practice in a field that doesnt require it, nor change ur scope of practice (minus fellowships). I didnt go to Harvard because of an ego i have, but it certainly sounds like thats why ur getting the md. Good job! For someone in med school u should really use ur time to study medicine instead of spending so much time researching sdn posts and reading the
dictionary. More than anything i would want a futre omfs who actually spent their time wisely, u sound like an immature kid wih a little man complex. Maybe u should have gone to the ivy school, it would have helped ur self confidence. Just food for thought.

If you'll check my original post (or the hidden text from the portion you just quoted from it), you'll notice I was being sarcastic. I don't actually believe any of those things. I simply did that to illustrate what the arguments you're using look like from the other side

I do apologize for being underhanded about it, but I'm not trying to make an enemy of you. I appreciate your contributions to the board (and I recall you generating some very useful content regarding 4 vs. 6 year programs in a few threads, which is how I remembered you were attending a 4 year).

I'd prefer if we resort from name calling though and focus on the argument at hand. I was accepted into the Ivy league and my knowledge base about it derives from research during the period I was deciding whether or not to attend.

As far as spending my time wisely, isn't that a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black? As far as I can tell you're spending just as much time on this thread as I am. I don't see it as a negative thing though, I enjoy having conversations of this nature with my future colleagues. Also, one of the joys of medical school is the spring break. I can only spend so much time writing research proposals and studying for the Step before I need a hit of internet to smooth things out.

 

[manton11]

Armorshell,

I wasn't talking about financial success. I'm talking about getting into residency, and the fact that the name makes a difference, period. Patients are impressed by it, other doctors are impressed by it. Patients tell their friends, doctors are impressed with the name and if all things equal people prefer an ivy league educated doctor over somewhat who is not. Before you respond, let me emphasize that I said "all things equal." and no I cannot back up my claims with a study, but step out of pubmed for a second and realize hat not all things that are true were researched and studied. Somethings are just common sense, and this is one of them.

I have a little personal example to share with u:

DUDE URE A FOOL IF U THINK DOCTORS ARE IMPRESSED WITH THE NAME...my dad's coworker WENT TO HARVARD..guess who is the better DOCTOR...MY DAD...and everyone KNOWS THAT in that city...the doctors get their procedures done BY MY DAD (who went to a state school in Michigan uve probably never heard of) not by the little puss-y harvard doctor

patients rave about how good my dad is..they dont rave about the little harvard doc..who sucks..my dad makes 4 times the amount as the little harvard doc

the harvard doc's clinical skills suck and everyone including the patients,doctors, and nurses know that

i could go on and on again about how many ivy docs suck..

patients tell other ppl about who gave them the best care

u are right only about getting into residency

 

[flapaTron]

the harvard doc's clinical skills suck and everyone including the patients,doctors, and nurses know that

i could go on and on again about how many ivy docs suck..

please do, we're learning so much from your dad's friend's experiences.

 

[manton11]

naw i think ive proved my point...at least i hope i have...most dds/mds dont give a jack about name..they care about ur skills and ur results not that u went to a little ivy

 

[Thunderdome23]

Okay, just to make myself perfectly clear once and for all I am in no way, shape of form trying to argue that skills, results, quality of training, bed-side manner, or integrity can be overridden in the eye of the patient or fellow clinician by simply listing a fancy ivy league name on your cv. What I AM saying is that if all your ducks are in a line (i.e. you're a great clinician), then the ivy league education is simply icing on the cake. I am also saying that before anyone knows you, they will do a double take when they see a prestigious school on your cv and many may undoubtedly assume you are good just because you were accepted by that school (this is more so for patients since clinicians are usually smart enough not to assume such things, but sometimes do at times). Nevertheless, once they get a glimpse of your results you can no longer hide behind the name brand anymore, now your work and personality represents you almost exclusively in both the eyes of the patient and clinician. So the name usually helps out most at the very beginning of your career or during interviews (as most applicants from Harvard tend to get interviewed at every place they apply and almost always get into their number one spot with very few exception). Bottom line: If you suck, it doesn't matter were you went to school, but if your good, it's icing on the cake to have have an ivy on your cv.

 

[manton11]

Okay, just to make myself perfectly clear once and for all I am in no way, shape of form trying to argue that skills, results, quality of training, bed-side manner, or integrity can be overridden in the eye of the patient or fellow clinician by simply listing a fancy ivy league name on your cv. What I AM saying is that if all your ducks are in a line (i.e. you're a great clinician), then the ivy league education is simply icing on the cake. I am also saying that before anyone knows you, they will do a double take when they see a prestigious school on your cv and many may undoubtedly assume you are good just because you were accepted by that school (this is more so for patients since clinicians are usually smart enough not to assume such things, but sometimes do at times). Nevertheless, once they get a glimpse of your results you can no longer hide behind the name brand anymore, now your work and personality represents you almost exclusively in both the eyes of the patient and clinician. So the name usually helps out most at the very beginning of your career or during interviews (as most applicants from Harvard tend to get interviewed at every place they apply and almost always get into their number one spot with very few exception). Bottom line: If you suck, it doesn't matter were you went to school, but if your good, it's icing on the cake to have have an ivy on your cv.

good. i agree completely

 

[armorshell]

Okay, just to make myself perfectly clear once and for all I am in no way, shape of form trying to argue that skills, results, quality of training, bed-side manner, or integrity can be overridden in the eye of the patient or fellow clinician by simply listing a fancy ivy league name on your cv. What I AM saying is that if all your ducks are in a line (i.e. you're a great clinician), then the ivy league education is simply icing on the cake. I am also saying that before anyone knows you, they will do a double take when they see a prestigious school on your cv and many may undoubtedly assume you are good just because you were accepted by that school (this is more so for patients since clinicians are usually smart enough not to assume such things, but sometimes do at times). Nevertheless, once they get a glimpse of your results you can no longer hide behind the name brand anymore, now your work and personality represent

Seems reasonable.

So the name usually helps out most at the very beginning of your career or during interviews (as most applicants from Harvard tend to get interviewed at every place they apply and almost always get into their number one spot with very few exception).

Probably doesn't hurt that they're all geniuses either, right?

 

[servitup]

Probably doesn't hurt that they're all geniuses either, right?

This is my point. All of those people would have done well at any school and gotten all the interviews they wanted. Therefore, Harvard didn't make it happen. The individuals did and they would have at any other school too.

 

[armorshell]

This is my point. All of those people would have done well at any school and gotten all the interviews they wanted. Therefore, Harvard didn't make it happen. The individuals did and they would have at any other school too.

I'm sure to some small degree the Harvard name helps, but I doubt it's highly significant. It's hard to account for the large amount of selection bias with the caliber of students Harvard and other Ivy league schools attract.

 

[txlonghorn]

Seems reasonable.




Probably doesn't hurt that they're all geniuses either, right?

I wouldn't say all...I have been called many things, but genius isn't one of them. lol

 

[MODFather]

I have a little personal example to share with u:

DUDE URE A FOOL IF U THINK DOCTORS ARE IMPRESSED WITH THE NAME...my dad's coworker WENT TO HARVARD..guess who is the better DOCTOR...MY DAD...and everyone KNOWS THAT in that city...the doctors get their procedures done BY MY DAD (who went to a state school in Michigan uve probably never heard of) not by the little puss-y harvard doctor

patients rave about how good my dad is..they dont rave about the little harvard doc..who sucks..my dad makes 4 times the amount as the little harvard doc

the harvard doc's clinical skills suck and everyone including the patients,doctors, and nurses know that

i could go on and on again about how many ivy docs suck..

patients tell other ppl about who gave them the best care

u are right only about getting into residency

Interesting. I don't think this is always the case though. My father is a physician who graduated from Harvard. He works at a small office with another doctor who graduated from some smaller state school (somewhere in Michigan if I remember correctly). This guy has some type of little man complex. He's always telling everybody about how great he is and how much money he makes. A couple years back he removed a mole from one of the other doctors and constantly reminds my dad how he performed surgery on another physician. He's always telling my dad about how awesome his son is. I gather his son is an English major as he reportedly uses impeccable grammar, solid evidenced based rhetoric, and commands attention with his stylistic use of the ellipsis.

IMAO, paying a little more for HSDM is worth it if you know you want to specialize. If I knew I was going into general practice, I would go to a less expensive state school. The name opens doors, and the residents have a very high interview/application ratio and ultimately good residency placement. Students at Harvard are happy, and based on the other schools I have attended I think the quality of life is better.
You can score from anywhere on the court, you just have higher odds if you’re right under the basket. If you know you can make the 3, take it, you’ll be much better off.

Attending Harvard as a resident, however, is a different story altogether.

 

[manton11]

Interesting. I don't think this is always the case though. My father is a physician who graduated from Harvard. He works at a small office with another doctor who graduated from some smaller state school (somewhere in Michigan if I remember correctly). This guy has some type of little man complex. He's always telling everybody about how great he is and how much money he makes. A couple years back he removed a mole from one of the other doctors and constantly reminds my dad how he performed surgery on another physician. He's always telling my dad about how awesome his son is. I gather his son is an English major as he reportedly uses impeccable grammar, solid evidenced based rhetoric, and commands attention with his stylistic use of the ellipsis.

IMAO, paying a little more for HSDM is worth it if you know you want to specialize. If I knew I was going into general practice, I would go to a less expensive state school. The name opens doors, and the residents have a very high interview/application ratio and ultimately good residency placement. Students at Harvard are happy, and based on the other schools I have attended I think the quality of life is better.
You can score from anywhere on the court, you just have higher odds if you’re right under the basket. If you know you can make the 3, take it, you’ll be much better off.

Attending Harvard as a resident, however, is a different story altogether.

lol ure a fa-g ..dont insult my dad u little ***..ure a loser compared to him...and he doesnt go around telling ppl how much he makes..i brought it up so stupid ppl like u get the point

u seem like the typical prick from harvard with ur stupid as.s verbose, flowerly language: 'impeccable grammar, solid evidenced based rhetoric, and commands attention with his stylistic use of the ellipsis;

GET A LIFE..HAVE U EVEN HAD A GIRLFRIEND BEFORE?

 

[gryffindor]

Armorshell,

I wasn't talking about financial success. I'm talking about getting into residency, and the fact that the name makes a difference, period. Patients are impressed by it, other doctors are impressed by it. Patients tell their friends, doctors are impressed with the name and if all things equal people prefer an ivy league educated doctor over somewhat who is not. Before you respond, let me emphasize that I said "all things equal." and no I cannot back up my claims with a study, but step out of pubmed for a second and realize hat not all things that are true were researched and studied. Somethings are just common sense, and this is one of them.

Thunderdome, you are in for a rude awakening if you go to private practice from residency. If you stay in academics, then continue to bask in your ivy credential glory. A patient's father asked me where I went to school last week. This was the first time anyone has asked me about my education in over a year. Turned out dad is a retired dentist and thus his curiosity about my dental education. Academic faculty at your residency probably are impressed by your ivy league credentials, and if they introduce you to your patients as "here is our Harvard resident" then 🙄. Patient's really don't care where you went as long as you don't hurt them and can keep their confidence. Referral sources won't care about your pedigree. They will want to know if you can do a competent job without traumatizing the patient. Bonus points for being nice to the patient and earning a glowing review. You will be at the GP's mercy, not the other way around if you plan to run a profitable private practice.