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questions for the trads

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by 236116, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. 236116

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    I'm truly curious. The passage of time and all that.

    Are you 18-21 year olds expected to be able to:
    - look up information in a database
    - find a text in a library
    - cite sources
    - think critically
    - form your own opinions
    - make your own responsible decisions
    - take responsibility for your actions
    - do stuff you don't want to because you have to
    - juggle multiple commitments
    - take disappointments
    - learn from mistakes

    And other stuff like that...

    *TIA*
     
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  3. ar2388

    ar2388 rads resident
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    what in the world are you trying tog et at?
     
  4. 236116

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    "To get at"

    I'm curious as to whether it's a true generation gap. I've always assumed that it's just cynicism but the more I see that more I think that it's the kiddos and not people like me.
     
  5. 135892

    135892 Guest
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    Um... Yes?

    I guess we're expected to, but maybe all of us aren't there yet?
     
  6. 236116

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    well i guess....

    are all the ones who can, not on sdn? my sample is flawed i guess. there's just so much "wah i am a bb preallo and i cannot even look up the simplest information etc"

    no wonder pa's such a punch line
     
  7. ar2388

    ar2388 rads resident
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    you sound like an angry troll right now... just because we come here to talk to other people who understand our neuroticism and are willing to be a friend and help us out when we cannot be completely cold and logical doesnt mean that we are incapable of looking up information, forming our own opinions, and everything else you are accusing us of not doing.
     
  8. 236116

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    Just annoyed.

    Y'all are the ones who play the system, get in, and keep whining. About how hard med school is. How mean residents are. Et cetera.

    It's like for all your post count you still have no concept however inchoate.

    Not accusing, observing.
     
  9. 135892

    135892 Guest
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    Yeah, I actually see this a lot not just on SDN, but on some of my class disscussion/e-mail type things as well. People ask the absolute dumbest questions, when the answers are literally right there on the course homepage. If they just looked around for a few seconds, they would find out everything they needed to know, but instead, they insist on sending out a mass e-mail to the entire class... It's quite ridiculous
     
  10. 236116

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    That's totally the sort of thing I mean. :)

    If you look, and you can't find it, that's one thing. But half this stuff is on a stickie- and if the links don't work, PM a mod, they won't bite.

    Things like getting people cancer and you failing- that I understand posting about. "Will a C keep me out?" not so much.
     
  11. airplanes

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    You mean a B+?
    I'd like to think most of us are competent and rational, but really who knows?
     
  12. 87138

    87138 Guest

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    America is breeding a generation of [word changed to "wimps" to avoid ban]. This is not a secret.
     
  13. mmmcdowe

    mmmcdowe Duke of minimal vowels
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    I'm willing to side with you on some of this. I think there is too much griping about that stuff, but it is a new generation. We might blog our gripes, but we aren't protesting society by having another Woodstock :)
     
  14. MadEvans

    MadEvans is a warm gun
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    This is why adcoms should look more favorably on full-time work (real job) experience.
     
  15. iampremed

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    and everyone who replies to this thread whining about other people's behavior and habits is the exception...
     
  16. 87138

    87138 Guest

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    So far I've seen legitimate gripes. No real whining.
     
  17. 236116

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    Truth.

    I wonder what the modern woodstock would be.

    Some do. But I think, all talk of non-trads getting a boost, they prefer moldable trads. I certainly would, if I was to pick people to bend into Physicians.
     
  18. HumidBeing

    HumidBeing In Memory of Riley Jane
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    Yes, to an extent. Each of us is going to be somewhat different in how we've developed those abilities, and the amount of experience we've had using them.

    The first two things on your list are simply utilitarian skills that are honed more easily than the others. The rest of the items aren't really either/or skills. Those are traits that we develop with time, circumstance, and experience. It doesn't matter what generation a person represents, very few are consistently good at all of those things in every circumstance.

    I'll tell you that the first thing that came to my mind when I read the first post followed up by this was Aretha Franklin's. R E S P E C T The song is still running through my head. :) Respect for our fellow members goes a long way when we're talking on a forum. I think it's what makes any conversation be more productive. I also think that if others are treated with respect that they likely to return it. ;)

    So, here's my modly reminder to everyone to place nice in this thread and pay attention to Aretha. "Show a little respect."
     
  19. ar2388

    ar2388 rads resident
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    or those who do research? as far as i can tell someone who has spent a decent amount of time in a research lab is capable of doing all of that. and i think its impressive now nowadays premeds are working so much harder than they had to. one a few of my interviews i asked the interviewers how they think premeds have changed and just about all \said that they do somuch more now. and they also have said that they probably would not have gotten into med school in this day and age. so whiny or not, we are apparently able to do way more.
     
  20. 236116

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    I am playing nice.

    It seems though, my dear Humid, that there is a lack of any of them in any capacity. That worries me. I know I'm not much older, but we learned those sorts of things by middle school.
     
  21. Aidan

    Aidan Res Ipsa Loquitur
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    Wow.. let me just, recap this thread and make sure I'm reading everything right. I AM only one of those 18-21 year olds, after all: you're coming to this thread, to pretentiously whine... and the basis of that whining is.. other people that whine. Right?

    If only I was 17 or 22, and not 18-21, and could read a book, perhaps a dictionary, and look up some words such as "contradiction" or "hypocrite".
     
  22. 236116

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    Nope. Reading comprehension, plz.
     
  23. ar2388

    ar2388 rads resident
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    damn.. if only it was april, i couldve done that for you ;)
     
  24. 87138

    87138 Guest

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    It's been a long time since I've taken a Logic course, but there has to be a term for fallacious arguments that are made in the form of "you're whining about whining, therefore you're a whiner!"

    I see them all the time on here.

    Making a casual observation about noticeable (and unfortunate) trends in the behavior of young adults does not put said observer in the same category as these people by default. Where along the way in the development of the internet did so many people start to equate "opining" with "whining" in such a knee-jerk manner?
     
  25. 236116

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    Holy crap, I just pulled the wiki on logical fallacy and I have no idea what it says. :eek:

    As to your second point, I don't know, but that's exactly the point. It seems as if opining is whining when you're being called on something. IDK.
     
  26. StIGMA

    StIGMA Doctor Professor
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    :sendoff:

    All-students forum please...
     
  27. zenlike

    zenlike I'll see you in health.
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    ...
     
  28. 236116

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    Don't have a lawn. :(
     
  29. Roy Basch

    Roy Basch R.O.R.
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    I'm still struggling to figure out how to tie my shoes...
     
  30. URHere

    Physician PhD 10+ Year Member

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    OP, this is my opinion on your observation:

    Those of us in our late teens or early twenties are just like any other age group: some are more mature/independent/self-sufficient/etc. than others. I think the major difference is that nontrads and younger applicants use SDN differently. For those of you who have been working in other fields, SDN is really more of an information source than anything else. You come here to learn how to apply to medical school, and talk to other nontrads about their experience.

    Many applicants in their late teens and early twenties are used to using internet forums as much more of a social resource. Many of us grew up with livejournal and social networking, so it isn't surprising to me that younger applicants come here to start amusing but occasionally useless threads or rant about little snags in the process like they would to friends. I agree that it is annoying when people can't take 5 seconds to search for a thread before posting the most common question of all time yet again, but as for everything else, I don't think that it suggests that traditional applicants are necessarily in a state of stunted maturity.

    Anyway, just playing devil's advocate for a minute. It's more interesting than biochemistry. :laugh:
     
  31. 236116

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    While I'll agree with your points, I really am curious if in "real life" (or should I say IRL?) you're expected to know these things. I don't see the glimmer of yes-we-know-how-we're-just-whining-for-lack-of-anything-else-to-do, only 'i don't want to think for my self and you can't make me'.

    Ugh, bchem.
     
  32. Aidan

    Aidan Res Ipsa Loquitur
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    There is no fallacy in "you're whining about whining, therefore you're a whiner!" - a whiner is one that whines, and this OP is indeed whining, thus he/she is a whiner. For the sake of not arguing over the definition of a word, my intended defining of whining in this case was the OP taking a stance against an entire age group of people in a childish, immature way by coming to said group and saying "This is a list of ideals that only you people aren't conforming to.."

    Thanks for bringing up logical fallacies, by the way. You and the OP have both used at least one in this thread.

    Do you not see the fallacy in: "I see some people on this forum looking for support from other members about some hardship in school. I don't know how old they are, I'm just going to guess they're between the ages of 18-21. These people are irresponsible, non-scholarly, lazy people who can't handle disappointment."
    ?

    Not only did he/she form a faulty conclusion based on misinterpretation of things he/she speculated, but he/she then implied that faulty conclusion over the ENTIRE group of people ages 18-21.

    Yeah.. so, keep lecturing ME on logic.

    People often face hard times in school. Whether they're due to laziness, or situations beyond their control. When one is in a hard time, we look for the support and reinforcement of our peers to build our encouragement back up. There's nothing wrong with that.. it's a healthy form of socialization and cooperation, rather than a weakness. Look at rehabs, support groups, or 12 step programs. Those are full of (usually) adults, many of them ABOVE ages 18-21, looking for the support and connection of their peers to justify themselves and to get their life back into shape.

    There are things that can't be learned from books. Bringing those things into open discussion on a forum such as this, instead of reading the definition of an author (who is also human, and biased), is not "irresponsible" but rather a more holistic view at a topic.

    Good luck to either of you if you think that the only way to learn the "simplest information" is to bury onesself in a book.
     
    #31 Aidan, Dec 15, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  33. RevivedPreMed

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    Did you really just equate the people coming here to ask about a C to people going to rehab for help with a legitimate problem?

    I really would not say that getting one C is a "hard time" when so many people in this world are suffering from much more serious things.
     
  34. efitzpat

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    First of all let me whine - I hate finals and am definitely procrastinating from advanced molecular biology studying.

    Second, the biggest problem I have with this post is the age generalization. Just because someone is 18-21 doesn't mean they haven't had any life experiences or any sense to navigate life. And it sure as hell doesn't mean we're moldable (and therefore more accepted by medical schools). I know plenty of people who fall beyond your age category who have a lot less sense than I do.
    I may have sense, but I have zero experience with this whole process. Few people in my family are college educated, let alone experience with graduate programs. I walked into this application process without a clue. SDN has help me at least find some answers (with the help of the search function ;) ).

    Most of all, we're discussing people's dreams and hopes for the future. Thats big. No one in my family understands what this crazy process can do to your sanity, and I find it comforting that there is a place where I can find people as concerned as I am.

    Sure there are a lot of awful posts on here. I am still appalled by the person asking for advice about an IUD. Isn't that what doctors are for? (or else we're all out of a job soon). But overall this is a harmless place where people should be able to vent and ask questions without much criticism. Don't we get enough of that from professors, peers, and adcoms?

    Now back to studying insulin like signaling pathways...
     
  35. RevivedPreMed

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    I would say for the most part, we are really not expected to do any of those things, except maybe the first three for any serious writing course. I do believe though that through college, students develop most if not all these skills. Some people take longer than others and I would not put a definitive age group because I know many 25+ people who still cannot do any of the above.

    I myself have taken on many of those things at a young age out of necessity and/or interest. Between working 20-40 hours a week since I was 15 and doing research I've had to do all of the above. Some would say that I lacked a childhood but I would say that learning all that as early as possible really helped me out in college.
     
  36. GoSpursGo

    GoSpursGo Allons-y!
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    True. But I think a lot of us, at some point, have gone through a rough period where we were worried that our dream was slipping away from us. Maybe we were worrying needlessly over something that, in retrospect, was trivial; that didn't make the experience any less troubling when we were going through it. It's always easy to look back and say in retrospect that something was no big deal, but that's not how it always feels at the time.

    Pre-meds, being human, are going to overreact sometimes, and they don't deserve to be ridiculed when they ask what, for them, is an hostest question. A lot of them are 1st time posters who have never seen the question "will a C kill me" answered, and for them it's a legitimate question. I think we would all like that the search function be used a little more often, but it really serves no purpose to mock them for not doing so other than to pat yourself on the back and make yourself feel superior to them in some way.

    There's nothing compelling you to click on the umpteenth million "will my 3.5 sophomore GPA kill me?" thread if you're tired of answering it for the umpteenth million time; if seeing people not use the search function or being overly neurotic or just flat-out not understanding this process bothers you, you can stick to the other myriad of threads around here and let those of us that would like to be helpful to these people do so. This isn't necessarily directed at the poster I quoted, but it just happened to be the most recent response that fit.
     
  37. RevivedPreMed

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    It's just hard for me to understand because I've just never been that way. I've always felt that one C wouldn't keep me from medical school. I could understand someone posting about a full set of C's because it makes things a little more complicated.

    I really can't understand the intensity of some pre-meds and a lot of times I feel as though they are overreacting. I would say this is because no one in my family has ever gone to any sort of professional/graduate school and only 2 people have gone to college. Maybe growing up in a family like that I never had the pressure to succeed and/or the medical school intensity was never instilled in me. Who knows.

    I will say that I am OCD about cleaning and organizing so I guess that's my outlet.
     
  38. 87138

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    This is perhaps the worst post I've seen here in a while.

    Why are so many kids on here putting words into the OP's mouth? Not to mention your last two paragraphs come completely out of left field. The OP was implying (perhaps not in the most tactful way) that due to his/her observations, people in the range of 18-21 years of age are increasingly less responsible. This is as much the fault of society as a whole as it is the individuals.

    Young adults these days have an increasing sense of self-entitlement. A lot of this is due to the LOOK-AT-ME! nature of the internet. Kids suddenly think they're a hell of a lot more important than they are (I'm talking blogs/youtube/etc, not necessarily posting on a forum like this).
     
  39. GoSpursGo

    GoSpursGo Allons-y!
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    Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, and of course, we all know that they are in fact over-reacting. But then keep in mind that instead of SDN, there are some people out there getting their information on med school admissions from less-than-useless pre-med advisors who feed all of this ridiculous misinformation to them, leading to a completely scewed view of how this whole thing works. It's not really their fault for not knowing how this thing works if they just stumbled onto this site yesterday.

    I'll agree with this. In general, I don't think that any of the generalizations that the OP suggests are necessarily unfair, so long as its qualified by saying that not everyone obviously falls into that generalization.
     
  40. Lukkie

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    :thumbup:
     
  41. cpants

    cpants Member
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    This has been going on since the beginning of civilization. The older people always long for the good old days and accuse the youngsters of laziness, entitlement, (insert negative quality here). This is due to a selective memory of how you behaved at that age, and an overestimate of the prevalance of negative qualities because the bad eggs stand out more. You don't notice the 95% of the population quietly working their asses off to get ahead. You only notice the few people whining to get a better grade in a class.
     
  42. cubssox2000

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    I feel like I have done all of these things and that it should be expected from the average college graduate. For me, personally, I have had to do all of those things, and because of this, I feel that these are critical skills that everyone should have.

    Of course, not everyone will agree with that statement, and that's ok. It is impossible to describe all of the skills that a person might need in the future. All anyone can do is try to gain the most from their experiences and apply what they have learned from both their achievements and failures towards their future.
     
  43. RySerr21

    RySerr21 i aint kinda hot Im sauna
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    ive gotten that feeling with most of jurrassic's posts that i have read. :thumbdown:
     
  44. Lukkie

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    JurassicPark would :D
     
  45. SiR99

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    There is a sense of class and maturity shown by people who approach every situation from different points of view and show that they have the power to control what they say and feel.

    Insecure and weak people who cannot control their tempers and often express their opinions to people who were not asking/care about what that person thinks.

    I know many people with all of those qualities, just wait till medical school starts, I am sure everyone will bump into more then enough of these people.
     
  46. fizzle

    fizzle New Member
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    Dude, this thread was started over a month ago. That's like, a year in internet time.

    Annoying people will always exist. True peace comes in acceptance of reality. And occasionally, a knocking of heads. :cool:
     
  47. pianola

    pianola MS2
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    Haha, here's a little gem for the trads and non-trads alike: Having an opinion does not make you smart. Being abrupt and abrasive does not make you smart. Asserting that you are smart doesn't make you smart either! :thumbup:

    Have a lovely day.
     
  48. Dr Lyss

    Dr Lyss Professional Student
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    truer words have never been spoken lol :thumbup:
     
  49. Bacchus

    Administrator Moderator Physician 10+ Year Member

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    I'm truly curious. The passage of time and all that.

    Are you 18-21 year olds expected to be able to:
    - look up information in a database: I regularly use PubMed and Ovid for term papers
    - find a text in a library: We actually had a course, Literature of Chemistry that made us learn how to look up sources including Chem Abstracts and the much-hated Beilsteiin
    - cite sources: Would you like MLA, ACS, AMA, or CBE?
    - think critically: As a fourth year I hope I can
    - form your own opinions: Did this on interviews
    - make your own responsible decisions: I consider myself mostly independent
    - take responsibility for your actions: Yes, and it sucks sometimes
    - do stuff you don't want to because you have to: Does working count?
    - juggle multiple commitments: Class, work, fitness, friends
    - take disappointments: This application cycle
    - learn from mistakes: Always

    And other stuff like that...

    *TIA*
     
  50. dw2158

    2+ Year Member

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    EXACTLY. there were/are whiners in JurassicPark's generation, and there are whiners in our generation. in past generations some people have become good doctors, and some people have also become bad doctors, regardless of whether or not their generation could check off everything on JP's little list. and i'm going to venture a guess that we all have moments where we whine as well as moments where we... go all JP on everyone's a ss. so maybe let's not beat people up for doing one or the other at any given time. just a suggestion.

    oh wait... maybe i shouldn't comment because i'm already 22. :rolleyes:

    um, i love you. :love:
     
  51. Sandlot13

    Sandlot13 ER = love
    5+ Year Member

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    i agree with bacchus.....

    i can answer all of those questions jurassic proposed quite easily........ and yes, sometimes I do make a conscious decision to whine because you know what? With all the hard stuff I do and put up with in life, d***it I deserve to complain every now and then ;)
     

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