Questions regarding elective time during third year

[agabe47]

1. What are the main benefits from having more elective time during third year? (more time to explore fields of interest? establish networks with faculty within my specialty of interest? Other reasons?)

2. Do residency programs look favorably upon applicants who have taken more third electives within the specialty that they are applying to?

3. Is it necessarily better to max out electives in my specific field of interest or diversify?

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[Jabbed]

1. What are the main benefits from having more elective time during third year? (more time to explore fields of interest? establish networks with faculty within my specialty of interest? Other reasons?)

2. Do residency programs look favorably upon applicants who have taken more third electives within the specialty that they are applying to?

3. Is it necessarily better to max out electives in my specific field of interest or diversify?

1. When you submit ERAS in your 4th year, you will only have completed 3-4 of your 4th year electives. As you might imagine, most people are trying to squeeze in desirable/competitive elective rotations into these few weeks. If you take electives as a 3rd year, you're applying for rotations that are in far less demand than they would be otherwise.

 

[operaman]

1) You hit the big reasons. We had 4 elective spots in 3rd year, so I did two of them in my planned field early in the year to be sure it's what I wanted to do. I think that's a very valuable thing to find out. I knew people who switched fields after discovering there was something about it that didn't sit right with them. Other than that, I did one neuro elective just because I felt it was something applicable to every field and an area where I had good conceptual and basic science knowledge, but didn't really have a good feel for basic workup and management. Had a great experience on that rotation and learned a ton. My other elective was in the ICU because I felt that critically ill patients were -- and still are -- something I'm not comfortable with (guess that's why it's a 3-year fellowship). Good rotation, emotionally draining, but learned a lot. If you ever get asked about a past ethical dilemma in an interview, an ICU rotation will give you plenty of material.

2) I think it makes zero difference. It got mentioned zero times in my interviews. That said, it would definitely get you more comfortable on those services and make you feel more prepared for your sub-I and for aways. It's nice to come back for your 4th year sub-I and already know everyone in the department and have them know who you are and what kind of student you are. If you shine as a third year and then come back and shine again on your sub-I, it certainly can't hurt what your home program thinks about you! If you're mediocre, you probably do get more of a pass on a 3rd year elective as people don't expect as much of you; on your sub-I people expect to see how hard you can work if your future career depended on it (because it does).

3) Really depends on you and I can see arguments either way. The key factor for me would be how certain you are about your field.

 

[NickNaylor]

1) Answered above.

2) No, but it could be beneficial for the possibility of getting good LORs from elective/away rotations in your particular specialty, which is always helpful. However, it's unlikely that they'll otherwise care in any substantive way.

3) Be sure of the field you want to go into. That may require more than one rotation. After that, I've received differing advice. Some people recommended doing rotations that weren't in their field to ensure that they have one last bit of exposure to stuff they will never likely see again. I see the point but I don't really buy into it. I say do stuff that you're genuinely interested in - even if it isn't in your particular field of interested. It'll be your last time to really be involved in those other fields.

 

[breakintheroof]

This is an informative thread. @agabe47 I am guessing you started it because you posted a School X vs. School Y thread and were told this:

The only two things that should matter: Which is cheaper? Which has more elective time during the clinical years (PARTICULARLY, the third year if you are thinking about surgical subspecialties)?

This poster has written this with little explanation in a number of similar threads. It's good to get some information about why elective time is so important.

For those med students reading this, how much elective time did you have, and did you and your classmates feel it was enough?

 

[Slack3r]

1. Benefits are two-fold, as mentioned above. You have time to explore fields that aren't part of the core 3rd year rotations (gen surg, psych, FM, IM, peds, ob/gyn, +/- neuro). Many medical students will have little/no exposure to radiology, ophtho, anesthesia, derm, PM&R, or any of the surgical subspecialties (plastics, ENT, ortho, neurosurg, urology, etc.).

More elective time during the third year allows you to see fields that might interest you, but you wouldn't be exposed to otherwise. And a rotation will allow for a much better exposure than you'd get shadowing (which I'd argue is a pretty poor way to judge different fields).

2. No. 4th year sub-Is matter, 3rd year rotations do not.

3. More elective time during the 3rd year allows you to make a strong decision about career choice after getting exposure to different fields. You can schedule multiple rotations in the same field to make SURE it's what you want to do, or you can try for a broad exposure.

This poster has written this with little explanation in a number of similar threads. It's good to get some information about why elective time is so important.

I've written that multiple times because it's really the major difference between medical schools, and should be the deciding factor for most, if not all, students. If you go to a US MD school, your preclinical curriculum will be pretty much the same anywhere you go. Pre-meds like to focus on a lot of **** that really doesn't matter, like curriculum style, "early-patient contact" (almost universally a crock), facilities, etc. Whereas, I'd argue the only thing that will significantly impact your education is the clinical years.

For me, we only had 2 elective blocks during our third year. I thought I wanted to go into one of the two fields I rotated in, but ended up liking neither. Now I'm trying to schedule my 4th year rotations last minute since I have minimal exposure to the field I might be pursuing.

Do yourself a favor and go to a school with rotation flexibility. Don't get backed into a corner and have to make a last second decision that will define the next 30-50 years of your life.

 

[Psai]

1. Benefits are two-fold, as mentioned above. You have time to explore fields that aren't part of the core 3rd year rotations (gen surg, psych, FM, IM, peds, ob/gyn, +/- neuro). Many medical students will have little/no exposure to radiology, ophtho, anesthesia, derm, PM&R, or any of the surgical subspecialties (plastics, ENT, ortho, neurosurg, urology, etc.).

More elective time during the third year allows you to see fields that might interest you, but you wouldn't be exposed to otherwise. And a rotation will allow for a much better exposure than you'd get shadowing (which I'd argue is a pretty poor way to judge different fields).

2. No. 4th year sub-Is matter, 3rd year rotations do not.

3. More elective time during the 3rd year allows you to make a strong decision about career choice after getting exposure to different fields. You can schedule multiple rotations in the same field to make SURE it's what you want to do, or you can try for a broad exposure.



I've written that multiple times because it's really the major difference between medical schools, and should be the deciding factor for most, if not all, students. If you go to a US MD school, your preclinical curriculum will be pretty much the same anywhere you go. Pre-meds like to focus on a lot of **** that really doesn't matter, like curriculum style, "early-patient contact" (almost universally a crock), facilities, etc. Whereas, I'd argue the only thing that will significantly impact your education is the clinical years.

For me, we only had 2 elective blocks during our third year. I thought I wanted to go into one of the two fields I rotated in, but ended up liking neither. Now I'm trying to schedule my 4th year rotations last minute since I have minimal exposure to the field I might be pursuing.

Do yourself a favor and go to a school with rotation flexibility. Don't get backed into a corner and have to make a last second decision that will define the next 30-50 years of your life.

**** is all facts in here
people getting all excited about pbl, grading schema and how many students to a body when that barely matters
i think they should give more time in third year to things that you want to try out but i assume that the scheduling would be difficult. i think that's the great benefit of a 1.5 year preclinical curriculum

 

[NickNaylor]

**** is all facts in here
people getting all excited about pbl, grading schema and how many students to a body when that barely matters
i think they should give more time in third year to things that you want to try out but i assume that the scheduling would be difficult. i think that's the great benefit of a 1.5 year preclinical curriculum

I think this is largely because most applicants are only familiar with the "type" of learning that occurs during the pre-clinical years. As a result, it's the only thing they really care about. It's hard to figure out what you think is important with respect to clinical training when you've never been exposed to it before.

 

[operaman]

I've written that multiple times because it's really the major difference between medical schools, and should be the deciding factor for most, if not all, students. If you go to a US MD school, your preclinical curriculum will be pretty much the same anywhere you go. Pre-meds like to focus on a lot of **** that really doesn't matter, like curriculum style, "early-patient contact" (almost universally a crock), facilities, etc. Whereas, I'd argue the only thing that will significantly impact your education is the clinical years.

For me, we only had 2 elective blocks during our third year. I thought I wanted to go into one of the two fields I rotated in, but ended up liking neither. Now I'm trying to schedule my 4th year rotations last minute since I have minimal exposure to the field I might be pursuing.

Do yourself a favor and go to a school with rotation flexibility. Don't get backed into a corner and have to make a last second decision that will define the next 30-50 years of your life.

1000x yes. The clinical years are the only difference in curriculum between schools and are what I would focus on were I applying to medical school again. The preclinical years are the same everywhere. Any school that touts some "unique" aspect of its preclinical experience will almost certainly muff it up and suck all the life out of it. It's kind of amazing - they will take a great idea, make it mandatory, give you a list of objectives beforehand, and then read a ppt presentation to you. In their defense, there's too much else going on to devote more time and effort to some of these things, but they do seem to oversell them to applicants.

There are other important things as well -- I posted a list somewhere awhile back -- but in general, if you're looking at the difference in clinical experiences between schools, you're probably looking in the right place.

 

[charmiedermie]

I think this is largely because most applicants are only familiar with the "type" of learning that occurs during the pre-clinical years. As a result, it's the only thing they really care about. It's hard to figure out what you think is important with respect to clinical training when you've never been exposed to it before.

That and premeds have no personal experience to be able to objectively evaluate 3rd year rotations, which can widely vary especially if the school has multiple sites for each rotation and can change things at the tip of a hat. It's not that they don't care, but there is nothing they can do about it.

 

[charmiedermie]

1000x yes. The clinical years are the only difference in curriculum between schools and are what I would focus on were I applying to medical school again. The preclinical years are the same everywhere. Any school that touts some "unique" aspect of its preclinical experience will almost certainly muff it up and suck all the life out of it. It's kind of amazing - they will take a great idea, make it mandatory, give you a list of objectives beforehand, and then read a ppt presentation to you. In their defense, there's too much else going on to devote more time and effort to some of these things, but they do seem to oversell them to applicants.

Sorry that is just not true. I know it gets said a lot, but in reality the way preclinical education is conducted and what is taught can vary greatly.

 

[Jabbed]

Sorry that is just not true. I know it gets said a lot, but in reality the way preclinical education is conducted and what is taught can vary greatly.

You're splitting hairs. Even if you're comparing pure PBL vs old-school lecture halls from 8-5p you're still covering the same material.

Yes, your physio class might have a better tie-in with your clinical skills class than mine and you might spend an inordinate amount of time discussing reproductive endocrinology, but at the end of the day we're both doing biochemistry, anatomy & physiology, pharm, path, etc. We're also probably using the same textbooks and review sources.

Now, if you spent the entire M1 covering podiatry, then I might agree that there's a great difference in what we're being taught.

 

[charmiedermie]

You're splitting hairs. Even if you're comparing pure PBL vs old-school lecture halls from 8-5p you're still covering the same material.

Yes, your physio class might have a better tie-in with your clinical skills class than mine and you might spend an inordinate amount of time discussing reproductive endocrinology, but at the end of the day we're both doing biochemistry, anatomy & physiology, pharm, path, etc. We're also probably using the same textbooks and review sources.

Now, if you spent the entire M1 covering podiatry, then I might agree that there's a great difference in what we're being taught.

I was more talking about professor quality, not mode of instruction - PBL vs. traditional lecture. I'll give an example. I met someone on the interview trail at Penn who said in their Derm block in 1st year, the Derm faculty brought in actual patients and had students evaluate the lesion in real time and develop their skills in this area - i.e. accurately describing the lesion like would be done on a Derm elective. Most public, state schools like mine don't do this.

Using your example, if you are better able to tie in Pathology and Physiology to your clinical skills class, coming up with your assessment and plan will be easier in your notes in third year.

 

[mvenus929]

So I think it's more important to look for a school that offers more elective time before ERAS applications are due,min September of fourth year. This doesn't necessarily have to be during third year. In fact, I think it's far more beneficial to explore other electives after you've done the core rotations because there are different expectations on electives and you will do better if you know the system and have the knowledge base that comes from completing third year.

Which is why I tend to favor schools with an 18 month preclerkship curriculum than those with added elective time during third year. If the school has additional core rotations that aren't typicalLy offered during the third year, even better, because they'll be accostomed to teaching third year students.

My class started third year before the previous class had ended their third year, so we overlapped on the first block of clerkships. It was very frustrating to explain that I was new at this and wasn't going to function the same as the practically fourth year students, despite us both technically being third years. Don't voluntarily do that to yourself.