Questions Regarding Scrubbing in and Medical Students

[ZomgMedSkoolz]

Hi guys,

I had a few questions about scrubbing and medical students, and would love to hear what everyone has to say.

1) Do medical students at your school scrub in the OR before their surgical rotation (eg: as MS1 or MS2)?

2) Are there official policies at your school outlining when medical students are allowed to scrub in the OR?

3) What are your thoughts regarding medical students and scrubbing? Do you think students should be able to scrub prior to surgical residency or not and why?

If you don't mind, could you also state your medical school with your response. Thanks!

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[marcus8]

We scrubbed in whenever we could. There was no policy about it.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

1) Do medical students at your school scrub in the OR before their surgical rotation (eg: as MS1 or MS2)?

Not officially, though you probably could if you asked.

2) Are there official policies at your school outlining when medical students are allowed to scrub in the OR?

Not that I'm aware.

3) What are your thoughts regarding medical students and scrubbing? Do you think students should be able to scrub prior to surgical residency or not and why?

Sure, those retractors don't hold themselves... Seriously, though, it's a good experience, even if you don't go into surgery, as there are other procedures (central lines, etc) that require sterility/semi-sterility that non-surgeons do. Plus, it gets you that much closer to the action and possibly some involvement.

Just out of curiousity, do you (or someone you know) have an argument to the contrary?

 

[ButImLETired]

This is a very, very strange set of questions.


Here we have a scrub class that we can take whenever (if you're shadowing a surgeon on a regular basis he/she usually suggests you become scrub-certified) so we can definitely scrub in first or second year. I don't believe there are official policies, and I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to do it. In general it's up to you and your mentor.

 

[nogolfinsnow]

Hi guys,

I had a few questions about scrubbing and medical students, and would love to hear what everyone has to say.

1) Do medical students at your school scrub in the OR before their surgical rotation (eg: as MS1 or MS2)?

Not regularly at my school, but some people have sought this out and been able to do it as long as the attending OKs it

2) Are there official policies at your school outlining when medical students are allowed to scrub in the OR?

Nope, we scrub whenever we can. I've never not been allowed to scrub.

3) What are your thoughts regarding medical students and scrubbing? Do you think students should be able to scrub prior to surgical residency or not and why?

Unless you're in a trauma surgery, it is incredibly boring to not be scrubbed in on a surgery. If you are scrubbed there's at least a chance you might get to do something. Mostly you'll be holding retractors, but you get to see some cool anatomy up close and depending on the attending and residents you're with you may get to cut and will definitely get to do some tying and suturing. As with the rest of med school, you're not in a place to do any harm to the patient. If your suture sucks, the resident will make fun of you and then fix it. I have no plans on doing surgery, but doing some hands-on stuff in the OR is fun. Plus I'm a champ at putting Foleys in now; could come in use during residency.

 

[theVster]

Hi guys,

I had a few questions about scrubbing and medical students, and would love to hear what everyone has to say.

1) Do medical students at your school scrub in the OR before their surgical rotation (eg: as MS1 or MS2)?

2) Are there official policies at your school outlining when medical students are allowed to scrub in the OR?

3) What are your thoughts regarding medical students and scrubbing? Do you think students should be able to scrub prior to surgical residency or not and why?

If you don't mind, could you also state your medical school with your response. Thanks!

1) Yes if you ask a surgeon or are doing work with them--sometimes they'll let you. If they're nice they generally will.

2) Not that I know of.

3) Absolutely it should be allowed! You are not going to learn how to work in the OR otherwise. Sitting on a stool or watching from behind is boring as hell. I found myself dozing off when I wasn't scrubbed but it's very exciting (and requires a level of alertness as it were) when you're up close to the stuff and helping out. In orthopedics it helps that the power tools keep you awake too, lol.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

This is a very, very strange set of questions.

agreed

 

[fahimaz7]

I have my asepsis training done and OR/scrub access as a rising 2nd year. We're pushing for all MS1's to have both of these completed for the upcoming class.

 

[ZomgMedSkoolz]

Just out of curiousity, do you (or someone you know) have an argument to the contrary?

The argument to the contrary is that the benefit that a first or second year student would receive from scrubbing in is outweighed by the accompanied risks incurred to the patient by having these students who may not have received adequate surgical training nearby during the procedure.

 

[apumic]

The argument to the contrary is that the benefit that a first or second year student would receive from scrubbing in is outweighed by the accompanied risks incurred to the patient by having these students who may not have received adequate surgical training nearby during the procedure.

Seeing as premedical students are often allowed to scrub-in and even assist with minor surgical procedures (usually in a surgical tech capacity), I don't really think this is generally seen as a major problem. Students are taught to scrub-in prior to doing it. As long as the student is aware of the risks and remains within policy guidelines s/he is no more at risk of causing complications such as infection than are the surgical techs who were trained in a 9-month surgical tech program or the EMT-Bs suturing an open wound in the ED after the doc looks at it and okays it. (Not sure how often the latter occurs outside my state but at least here, we can be trained in basic suturing and used as such in the ED if the ED doc feels comfortable with it.)

 

[Antibodies]

Seeing as premedical students are often allowed to scrub-in and even assist with minor surgical procedures (usually in a surgical tech capacity), I don't really think this is generally seen as a major problem. Students are taught to scrub-in prior to doing it. As long as the student is aware of the risks and remains within policy guidelines s/he is no more at risk of causing complications such as infection than are the surgical techs who were trained in a 9-month surgical tech program or the EMT-Bs suturing an open wound in the ED after the doc looks at it and okays it. (Not sure how often the latter occurs outside my state but at least here, we can be trained in basic suturing and used as such in the ED if the ED doc feels comfortable with it.)

I have never heard of a pre-med student scrub in (ie be inside the sterile field and have the gown/gloves on). Sure, pre-meds can observe from a distance (away from the sterile field).

 

[Law2Doc]

The argument to the contrary is that the benefit that a first or second year student would receive from scrubbing in is outweighed by the accompanied risks incurred to the patient by having these students who may not have received adequate surgical training nearby during the procedure.

Is a second year med student holding the retractor really any worse than some medical product rep or scrub tech circulator who happens to be there scrubbing in and holding the retractor? Sometimes you need an extra set of hands, and that is what's best for the patient. You wouldn't be allowed to "do" anything as an early year med student. You wouldn't be cutting things, wouldn't be cauterizing, wouldn't be tying/suturing. You barely get to do those as a third year med student. It would simply be observing, but a bit closer. Pretty much the worst thing you could do would be contaminate the sterile field, but even then that's fixable, after they yell at you and throw you out.

I don't know what this "adequate surgical training" is that you speak of, but guess how you get surgical training? By scrubbing in and getting close to the table. There is no "course" that teaches you this stuff, at least at most programs. In most cases some scrub techs will show you how to scrub and gown and glove, and after that it's just a matter of standing up to the table and holding whatever the surgeon asks you to hold until he feels confident enough to promote you to suctioning or manning the scissors.

In general, the opportunity for first and second years to get to the OR depends on them busting a move and convincing a surgeon to let them shadow. There is no formal rotation/coursework for M1-M2s to be in the OR. During 3rd year you will have a surgery rotation, which is generally 8-12 weeks during which you will be in the OR on a daily basis. Then you can take electives and sub-Is after that and get more OR exposure. I'm not sure why rushing to the OR in the early years is that important, but I don't think most places have a real policy against it, nor do I think you are significantly more dangerous as a 2nd year as you will be as a 3rd.

 

[ZomgMedSkoolz]

Sorry, slight typo in the original question. I meant rotation rather than residency in question 3. Basically, the point of the question is to get everyones opinions on scrubbing in the first two years of medical school.

Hi guys,

I had a few questions about scrubbing and medical students, and would love to hear what everyone has to say.

1) Do medical students at your school scrub in the OR before their surgical rotation (eg: as MS1 or MS2)?

2) Are there official policies at your school outlining when medical students are allowed to scrub in the OR?

3) What are your thoughts regarding medical students and scrubbing? Do you think students should be able to scrub prior to surgical ROTATION or not and why?

If you don't mind, could you also state your medical school with your response. Thanks!

 

[juliedi]

I think that the most important thing in regards to 1st and 2nd years (or even pre-meds) scrubbing in are:

1) keeping the patient's interests and safety as the foremost concern,
2) not doing anything that you feel uncomfortable doing, and
3) taking direction from the attending surgeon.

I think if you follow these rules, then scrubbing in should be no problem.

 

[drizzt3117]

I scrubbed in as a pre-med before, it's not like you know any more about surgery as a m1/2 or as a m3 before your surgery rotation. So far we've gotten to do some cool stuff on ob.

 

[familyaerospace]

I have never heard of a pre-med student scrub in (ie be inside the sterile field and have the gown/gloves on). Sure, pre-meds can observe from a distance (away from the sterile field).

I'm a pre-med student and I've been asked twice if I was going to scrub in. I turned them down both times because quite frankly I was never taught how to do it and I know I wasn't going to be taught. Maybe if I knew what to do I would have taken them up on that.

 

[slowbutsteady]

The argument to the contrary is that the benefit that a first or second year student would receive from scrubbing in is outweighed by the accompanied risks incurred to the patient by having these students who may not have received adequate surgical training nearby during the procedure.

Did you just make this up? It makes absolutely no sense.

If the attending asks you or lets you scrub in, you do!! Dude, these are teaching hospitals!!!

 

[seelee]

I'm a pre-med student and I've been asked twice if I was going to scrub in. I turned them down both times because quite frankly I was never taught how to do it and I know I wasn't going to be taught. Maybe if I knew what to do I would have taken them up on that.

For future reference, never turn down an opportunity like this. It is better to respond;

"I have never scrubbed in before, so you would have to help me out, but I would love to do it if it is not a problem".

That being said, when you are the low man on the totem pole (pre-med, or M1-M2), I think it is appropriate at the start, to offer to help in anyway you can, but after the procedure has started, don't touch or do anything unless the operator specifically asks you to. As you advance in your training, you will be expected to do more, and without being told, but now, just do your best to keep quiet and out of everyone's way.

 

[Appless]

I have never heard of a pre-med student scrub in (ie be inside the sterile field and have the gown/gloves on). Sure, pre-meds can observe from a distance (away from the sterile field).

really i did several times. I guess it just depends on where you are. As for if you should be able to or not i dont see why not. Its not like they will be asking you to do anything where you could possibly screw up as others have said.

 

[sedaniel]

I'm a pre-med student and I've been asked twice if I was going to scrub in. I turned them down both times because quite frankly I was never taught how to do it and I know I wasn't going to be taught. Maybe if I knew what to do I would have taken them up on that.

Do it. 😀 It's not hard to learn or anything, and you never know when you might get to hold a retractor. I scrubbed in and assisted for a week on a surgical mission trip (granted it was in Honduras so it totally wouldn't have happened in the States lol). It was such an amazing experience.

 

[familyaerospace]

LOL, I think it's funny that everyone is telling me to do it. And yes, it was in the US. What is funny about one of the times I was asked if I was going to scrub in, there were medical students (actually M3s I think) there who weren't even offered the chance! All the attendings there were much more interested in assuring I had a front row seat to the surgery.

I have another year before I apply to medical school. I know the opportunities are likely to come up again, since it is one tech that asks every single time.

I've been in the OR a total of about 30 hours which given as though the attending expected me to run away screaming or faint during the first experience (a year ago I had the worst medical phobia you could imagine yet I still wanted to go into medicine), I think we are making progress. I think he never expects me to take anyone up on the offer. Maybe next time I will see if they have non-latex gloves