Quick Question - Fall '13 Application

[PensivePlatypus]

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So, I'm having a bit of a dilemma here. I've spent the last couple of years telling myself that my GPA is too low and I don't have enough experience and that has led me to the conclusion that I need to go back to school. So, this semester I'll be taking a grad level class in Animal Thinking and Communication which will count towards a M.A. in animal behavior once I am accepted into the program. I still have to finish up a few pre-reqs also and I've been planning to take those intermittently. All of this with the goal of being prepared and accepted in the Fall '15 cycle.

The problem I am having now is that the more I think about it and the more peoples stories I read the more I think I might should just get the pre-reqs out of the way now and just start applying this fall. I'm missing statistics, microbiology, biochemistry, and animal science (anyone know if there is any lenience on this course / animal nutrition). So, I figure if I take all four of those courses and maintain a 4.0 throughout, it will at the very least make some sort of impression in regards to the disparity between classes taken recently and classes taken in undergrad. I'll have all the pre-reqs complete, and if I'm not accepted then I'll just start progressing with the M.A.

As I'm writing this I think I have answered my own question but I would like to post it anyways just to see some feedback. I mean, I can't imagine getting in with my undergrad GPA and the recently completed pre-reqs but crazier things have happened, right??

I'd appreciate any advice. Here's a list of some relevant info:

I'm 27 years old.
Undergrad GPA: 2.7 B.S. in Marine Science and Biology
Graduate Level GPA: 4.0 (4 Credits) - Fish Physiology
GRE: 540 V (70th Percentile), 650 Q (60th Percentile) 5 AW (85 Percentile) (1st and only test, July 2011)
Experience:
- 3,000 Hours working with fish / examining fish parasites & tissue / fish husbandry.
- 1000's of Hours of personal pet experience.
- 25 Hours volunteering at a small animal hospital.
- 50 Hours volunteering with large animals at Zoo Miami (Rhino, Giraffe, Hippo, Elephant)
- 250 Hours working as a dog walker / dog sitter. \

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies!

 

[ouijetaime]

I would think taking pre reqs and making al A's, retaking and rocking the GRE, and increasing small and large animal experience hours would be a good thing to do now. Make sure you find some experience with horses and cows and/ or pigs as they are quite common.

Is there any way you can do pre reqs around your masters? Summer courses?

 

[twelvetigers]

Most schools don't require animal science (FL and Tuskegee are the only ones, maybe?) and not all schools require animal nutrition either. And if you want to apply to a school that requires it, you can take it online through a school that offers it, like OKState. It's not too big of a deal that way.

A 2.7 is hard to work with, but showing improvement is a start.

Another thing to consider is that part of the application process is breaking down both veterinary and animal experience hours. It seems like you have plenty of animal hours but not much veterinary experience. You'll probably want to spend some more time in a vet clinic, maybe even get some large animal time in if you can. Also remember that you need a letter of recommendation from a veterinarian for most schools, and you would want one that knows you well.

It seems like you might need some time to work on your application anyway - maybe take some more upper division classes along with the pre-reqs? Maybe repeat a course you did poorly in, depending on what schools you are interested in (and how they calculate retakes)? And definitely get some more experience. You have some unique stuff but you'll need a better foundation I think, especially with the lower GPA.

 

[Frozenshades]

Most schools don't require animal science (FL and Tuskegee are the only ones, maybe?) and not all schools require animal nutrition either. And if you want to apply to a school that requires it, you can take it online through a school that offers it, like OKState. It's not too big of a deal that way.

Texas A&M also. Requires both animal science and nutrition.

 

[PensivePlatypus]

Taking the pre-reqs around the master was my original plan but I feel like it makes more sense to just complete them ASAP, but then again maybe I'm just dreaming that I even stand a chance this fall or next.

I definitely need some more veterinary experience. I actually have an interview for an assistant position sometime this week. I recently moved to NYC so I'm trying to get everything together. I've been considering volunteering at the zoo here but perhaps I should just focus more on shadowing a vet.

I'm looking at Florida as my #1 school so thats where I got the Animal Science classes. I hadn't thought of taking them online though, thanks for that. They have the aquatics program there which is right down my alley and I think I will be a Florida resident again sometime in the not so distant future so that will also work for me. Worst case I could try to finagle myself back into residency because I do still have my voters registration / drivers license there and I was also born there / lived there for 13 years / went to college there... but that is another story for another day.

Thanks for the replies!

 

[BarkyLove]

I'm a non-trad student and around the same age as you, and the way I look at it is the earlier I start the DVM program, the better. With that being said, I do think you have some obstacles to overcome..mainly your GPA. Since your ultimate goal is to get accepted to vet school, not get a MS, I think it's a good idea to work towards accomplishing your main goal. If that's possible without the extra financial burden of obtaining an add'l MS, then great! If not, I'd work towards the masters.

Since you still have some pre-reqs to complete, if I were you, I'd work on acing those first. Since alot of schools factor in the last 45 credits towards their GPA calculation, if you do well in these courses it might boost you a tad. Also, retaking the GRE (and doing really well) is another way to balance out the GPA. The second aspect is getting vet hours and LORS. Like Twelve Tigers said you have a lot of animal experience and virtually no vet experience. I'd work on that in conjunction to working on your prereqs.

I think if you can obtain a good amt.of quality hours and experience, while doing well in those prereq classes and maybe some add'l upper division courses, it wouldn't hurt to apply for the next cycle (you have about 8 months to improve). The benefits would be:
1. Get a feel for how the app cycle works
2. Get quality feedback from schools if rejected
3. Best one: Get In!! :0)

Just playing devils advocate..the cons would be:
1. It's expensive to apply and interview
2. It's time consuming and a lot of work

I guess all in all..I think it's worth applying if you feel like you can dedicate yourself and make those adjustments. Best of luck!!

 

[PensivePlatypus]

I've seen a few people talk about the last 45 credits but I hadn't given it much thought until now. I just crunched some numbers and see that for my last 45 credits I have a 3.1 GPA. So, technically, if I was to get A's in all these pre-reqs (15 credits) that would boost my GPA to about a 3.5

Could someone expand on this a little? Like which schools look at the last 45 and exactly what does that mean? Is it just the last 45 credits, regardless of the courses or is it the last 45 science credits?

 

[Museum Nerd]

Most schools it is the last 45 of any class. However I have seen some (at least one Purdue maybe?)schools last 45 of undergrad only. classes towards a master do not count.
With a 2.7 you have a major hurdle to overcome. Some schools do focus more on last 45 more but all still look at cum GPA. So if you can take more classes (masters) not just the pre reqs to boost the cum it will help. I would shoot for a cum at the 3.0 level.
I would focus on vet hours not just animal experience. Depending on the school you will be up against people with 1000's of hours of vet experience. You might want to review lst years sucessfull aplication thread and people normally list the number of hours they have along with their GPA
In most cases the lower the GPA the more experience you will need.
I also agree with ouijetaime to retake the GRE and rock it- like above the 75% on both sections. This will also help offset a lower GPA.

 

[twelvetigers]

I've seen a few people talk about the last 45 credits but I hadn't given it much thought until now. I just crunched some numbers and see that for my last 45 credits I have a 3.1 GPA. So, technically, if I was to get A's in all these pre-reqs (15 credits) that would boost my GPA to about a 3.5

Could someone expand on this a little? Like which schools look at the last 45 and exactly what does that mean? Is it just the last 45 credits, regardless of the courses or is it the last 45 science credits?

If you can bump it up that much with just 15 credits, that's awesome. (I had something like 150 credits and so I needed like, another 60 hours to even come close to that sort of improvement.) If 15 credits can do that, take a few (2-3, maybe a summer) of semesters and try to plug in 30 hours of pre-reqs and upper division classes. Rescue that GPA if it's not too late!

It is the last 45 of any courses, at least in most cases. How much it is weighted depends on the school. Minnesota looks at that over the cumulative GPA. Most other schools seem to give it a % weight, along with the cumulative GPA and GRE scores.

 

[dvmdreamer]

I've seen a few people talk about the last 45 credits but I hadn't given it much thought until now. I just crunched some numbers and see that for my last 45 credits I have a 3.1 GPA. So, technically, if I was to get A's in all these pre-reqs (15 credits) that would boost my GPA to about a 3.5

Could someone expand on this a little? Like which schools look at the last 45 and exactly what does that mean? Is it just the last 45 credits, regardless of the courses or is it the last 45 science credits?

It's last 45 in general. Many schools additionally use a science GPA or pre-req GPA calculation, which what that includes depends on the school. Some, such as Iowa State, ONLY use these two, and not your cumulative GPA at all.

I think the purpose of the last 45 is exactly for the situation you are in- allowing students who weren't shining stars their first years but cleaned up their performance later to compete. Or conversely, filtering out students who did great in intro level classes but couldn't cut it in the upper level ones. Mind you, I think they would notice if you add a bunch of fluff courses just to boost your GPA. I've never been involved in the admissions committee end of things, but from the stats on here, I would imagine many of us end up with similar scores and some subjective evaluation goes into the exact rankings of applicants.

 

[EngrSC]

I've seen a few people talk about the last 45 credits but I hadn't given it much thought until now. I just crunched some numbers and see that for my last 45 credits I have a 3.1 GPA. So, technically, if I was to get A's in all these pre-reqs (15 credits) that would boost my GPA to about a 3.5

Could someone expand on this a little? Like which schools look at the last 45 and exactly what does that mean? Is it just the last 45 credits, regardless of the courses or is it the last 45 science credits?

I've been researching the schools evaluation criteria because I want to make sure I meet the requirements of my top schools and apply to schools that will evaluate me in a way that makes me look like a strong candidate (if that makes sense).

Anyway - here are a couple examples:

Michigan calculates a scholastic indicator score based on science GPA, last 3 semester GPA, GRE score, and completion of a bachelor's degree or not. That sounds fine and dandy, however, their last 3 semester GPA includes whatever courses you took within your last 3 semesters, which has to be a minimum of 36 credits for undergrads and 18 credits for graduate students. For someone such as myself, who is a non-trad and works full time I can't take 12 credits in a semester.

Minnesota calculates 2 GPAs - courses required for admission and recent coursework GPA on most recent 45 semester credits of 60 quarter units. If an applicant repeats a required course to improve their grade at the same or another institution, the first and second grades are both considered if less than 3 years have passed since the first attempt. Only the 2nd grade will be used in the evaluation if 3 or more years have passed since the course was first taken. This type of evaluation may be favorable to your situation.

And it looks like Florida weights different parts of your application - 25% verbal GRE score, 25% quantitative GRE score, 25% science course GPA, 12.5% overall course GPA, 12.5% last 45 credit course GPA.

I've found that there's a lot of variability in how each school evaluates applicants and I think you should focus on those that will evaluate you in a way that makes you look best. That's my 2 cents 😛

 

[twelvetigers]

And it looks like Florida weights different parts of your application - 25% verbal GRE score, 25% quantitative GRE score, 25% science course GPA, 12.5% overall course GPA, 12.5% last 45 credit course GPA.

Based on this, you really need to blow the GRE out of the water... then raise that GPA with plenty of science courses and you will greatly improve all three GPA calculations. Bada bing bada boom.

 

[EngrSC]

Bada bing bada boom.

👍

 

[twelvetigers]

You have to picture me as a large, Sopranos-style Italian guy to get the full effect.

 

[PensivePlatypus]

Big Bada Boom!

Thanks for the replies. When I mentioned above that I could raise my GPA to 3.5 I was referring to the last 45 credits, not the cumulative. Adding 15 credits of 4.0 to my GPA probably would not even get me to 3.0 cumulative. Another thing I remember reading somewhere was that Florida ignores coursework completed more than six years ago, which in my case is extremely beneficial as I did significantly better in the second half of my undergrad.

That said, I'm really at a crossroads here. I'm enrolled in this graduate course but I'm going to be paying OOS with no financial aid. I'm considering dropping it and picking up half / full time in the summer / fall when I can get aid and also utilize IS tuition. I'm really eager to get back in the classroom and waiting until fall is a long time to wait but at this point I need to maximize potential and efficiency.

I'm going into this M.A. program thinking that if I'm unable to get vet school I'll have a degree that I can fall back on but the more I think about it the more I feel like thats the wrong approach. Like someone said above, my ultimate goal is veterinary school so that should be my priority. UGH, life is hard. Decisions...Decisions...

Does anyone know if the science GPA calculations at Florida are for all science courses or just the pre-reqs. If it's the latter I could pull off solid marks in all but one of their criteria. Oh and one more thing, does anyone know if a course in Cellular & Molecular Biology can be used as a substitute for Microbiology?

Another long post...too...much...coffee...

 

[twelvetigers]

Some of these things you have to ask the school directly, like the micro substitution. I would guess no, but it's just something you'd have to ask.

 

[EngrSC]

I haven't found any mention of Florida having the 6 year rule on their website but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist 🙂

Per Florida's website:

The UFCVM requires 80 credits of college coursework in order to be eligible for admission. A complete list of pre-requisites can be found on our website here: http://education.vetmed.ufl.edu/admissions/undergraduate-course-requirements/. Please note that the pre-requisite courses are listed with UF prefixes and that many colleges and universities do not match up exactly with these classes. Should you have any questions regarding a class you are taking and whether or not it will fulfill a pre-requisite, please contact Lynnette Chaparro at [email protected] or Terri Weldon at [email protected].

If you aren’t sure, please check with us. You don’t want to be scrambling the summer before vet school trying to complete a pre-requisite you thought you had already finished.

You can take the prerequisite courses at any accredited two-year or four-year college or university. Our admissions committee values course work completed at a university at a higher level than course work completed at a community college. Be advised that many of our students complete some of their course work at community college but we encourage upper level science courses to be completed at a major university.

Please note that Biochemistry, Microbiology, Genetics, Animal Science, and Animal Nutrition must be completed at an accredited 4-year institution.

 

[EngrSC]

Oh, and I believe science GPA includes all undergrad courses identified as biology, chemistry, physics, math, and other sciences.

BUT each school calculates it differently 🙄

 

[equineconstant]

Big Bada Boom!

Thanks for the replies. When I mentioned above that I could raise my GPA to 3.5 I was referring to the last 45 credits, not the cumulative. Adding 15 credits of 4.0 to my GPA probably would not even get me to 3.0 cumulative. Another thing I remember reading somewhere was that Florida ignores coursework completed more than six years ago, which in my case is extremely beneficial as I did significantly better in the second half of my undergrad.

Missouri also has something similar. I'm not to clear on the details since I'm a traditional student and it doesn't apply to me, but it might be worth looking into. It could affect courseload calculations, though.

Relevant thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=977439

 

[psilovethomas]

Michigan calculates a scholastic indicator score based on science GPA, last 3 semester GPA, GRE score, and completion of a bachelor's degree or not. That sounds fine and dandy, however, their last 3 semester GPA includes whatever courses you took within your last 3 semesters, which has to be a minimum of 36 credits for undergrads and 18 credits for graduate students. For someone such as myself, who is a non-trad and works full time I can't take 12 credits in a semester.

I don't get this. You can be out of school for 20 years and still apply to MSU. You can take 3 credits a semester if you want to, and it's fine. They will just calculate your last 3 semester GPA OR calculate your last 36 credits regardless of how many semesters it was over.

Last 3-semester GPA: all courses taken during the last three semesters or more as we must have a minimum of 36 credits for undergraduate students and 18 credits for graduate students; in case of repeated courses we include both if within the last 3 semesters.

 

[EngrSC]

I don't get this. You can be out of school for 20 years and still apply to MSU. You can take 3 credits a semester if you want to, and it's fine. They will just calculate your last 3 semester GPA OR calculate your last 36 credits regardless of how many semesters it was over.

I totally read it as they calculate your last 3-semester GPA, which must be a minimum of 36 credits 🙄

So thanks for clarifying!

 

[that redhead]

First, there are a few of us on here that applied and were accepted with cumulative GPAs <3.0, so it is possible. I think you have some more research to do, namely on which schools you would apply to and which require what courses.

How did you do in the other pre-requisite courses, like organic chemistries and physics? How long ago did you take those courses? If you did poorly (C or worse), I would advise you to re-take those classes and get as many As and you can.

In regards to experience, pet ownership is generally not counted unless it was something like breeding/showing/4H. You'll want to calculate how many "animal experience" hours vs. veterinary hours you have- the ones with a vet are most important to the admissions committees. You'll also need a vet to write a letter of recommendation. Do you have ideas for other people who would write you a good letter?

Overall I think your best approach is to start researching specfic school requirements and strongly consider re-taking those prereqs. It may/will likely push your application time back a year or maybe two, depending.