Quitting Premed (Because of $$$)

[Affiche]

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guaranteed not a single one of you will accept a 50k salary as an attending and justify it as okay

who are you?
the only people who are so dismissive and cocksure of themselves while spouting bull**** phrases like "check your privilege" are people who haven't actually gone through poverty themselves

I'm not 100% sure what your point is here because of the run-on sentences, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I disagree with your idea that those who have been impoverished would never say "check your privilege". Who am I? I lived through being orphaned, homeless and yes, impoverished. I've been supporting myself for years and I understand the OP's concerns. The issue is that beyond engineering, there aren't many jobs that will provide a stable salary right out of college that will be large enough to support a family.

I'm comfortable going into medicine because as an attending, I won't have to worry about a 50k salary. The earning potential of an attending is nothing to sneeze at. Further, I'll be pretty much guaranteed employment until I choose to retire. Having lived in extreme poverty and financial instability, the job security for physicians is incredibly appealing. You may have to suffer through a few extra years of low pay, but you likely wouldn't be earning more than that in another career out of college, either. To complain about such great job prospects does in fact warrant being told to "check our privilege".

And I know you'll respond with some well-thought reply such as "cry about it" or "I don't care about your opinion", and that's okay, but at least now people who read this thread might not buy into the drivel you're spewing.

 

[TaroBubbleTea]

OP, maybe you should consider nursing. IMO, nurses make a respectable salary out of college with a BSN.

 

[HCHopeful]

who are you?
the only people who are so dismissive and cocksure of themselves while spouting bull**** phrases like "check your privilege" are people who haven't actually gone through poverty themselves
people who have lived in poverty don't have that smug sense of moral superiority from pretending to think about the less fortunate or "underserved" as premeds call it because actual poor people were too busy being poor

If you'll recall correctly this time, I've never said, "check your privilege." The poster I was addressing has said that in another thread.

Who am I? Who are YOU to whine about having the opportunity to attend medical school and eventually make hundreds of thousands of dollars while others are out there working just as hard to make 30K a year?

Just because you are too high on your horse to realize others have it worse than you, doesn't mean I am "pretending."

Nearly everyday I am thankful for being born into the family I was and having the opportunities that have been presented to me. It is not something I take for granted. I do all of this while realizing that there are people MUCH less fortunate than I. People who go through much worse and work a lot harder to get to where I wish to go.

Should I be accepted to medical school, my only hope is that I don't forget how very fortunate I am to have such an opportunity. You seem to have already done so.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I'm not 100% sure what your point is here because of the run-on sentences, so correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I disagree with your idea that those who have been impoverished would never say "check your privilege". Who am I? I lived through being orphaned, homeless and yes, impoverished. I've been supporting myself for years and I understand the OP's concerns. The issue is that beyond engineering, there aren't many jobs that will provide a stable salary right out of college that will be large enough to support a family.

I'm comfortable going into medicine because as an attending, I won't have to worry about a 50k salary. The earning potential of an attending is nothing to sneeze at. Further, I'll be pretty much guaranteed employment until I choose to retire. Having lived in extreme poverty and financial instability, the job security for physicians is incredibly appealing. You may have to suffer through a few extra years of low pay, but you likely wouldn't be earning more than that in another career out of college, either. To complain about such great job prospects does in fact warrant being told to "check our privilege".

And I know you'll respond with some well-thought reply such as "cry about it" or "I don't care about your opinion", and that's okay, but at least now people who read this thread might not buy into the drivel you're spewing.

Don't try to argue with those above you in the medical field; it never ends well. @Psai is a rising MS4. His opinions hold much more clout since he's been through more of the process than we have.

 

[deleted480308]

If you'll recall correctly this time, I've never said, "check your privilege." The poster I was addressing has said that in another thread.

Who am I? Who are YOU to whine about having the opportunity to attend medical school and eventually make hundreds of thousands of dollars while others are out there working just as hard to make 30K a year?

Just because you are too high on your horse to realize others have it worse than you, doesn't mean I am "pretending."

Nearly everyday I am thankful for being born into the family I was and having the opportunities that have been presented to me. It is not something I take for granted. I do all of this while realizing that there are people MUCH less fortunate than I. People who go through much worse and work a lot harder to get to where I wish to go.

Should I be accepted to medical school, my only hope is that I don't forget how very fortunate I am to have such an opportunity. You seem to have already done so.

Medical school is my third career, one of which was construction labor.... I work harder now than I ever did. It's a myth that those who make less are magically working harder than those who make more. Effort is largely unrelated to income, scarcity of skill and demand for the skill are better predictors

 

[HCHopeful]

Medical school is my third career, one of which was construction labor.... I work harder now than I ever did. It's a myth that those who make less are magically working harder than those who make more. Effort is largely unrelated to income, scarcity of skill and demand for the skill are better predictors

That's fair. I guess I generally associate lower-income jobs with a lot of manual labor, which probably isn't the best generalization. I know I'd hate manual labor, which is why I say it's harder. You're point is spot on, though, and I admit that part of my argument may be flawed.

 

[22031 Alum]

Don't try to argue with those above you in the medical field; it never ends well. @Psai is a rising MS4. His opinions hold much more clout since he's been through more of the process than we have.

So then do I get to weigh in as an attending and cancel out everybody else's opinion??

Comparing a temporary period of making a lower salary, with people who are stuck making that same salary for life with little to no chance of advancement, is asinine. Yeah, I made less per hour than the janitors when I was a resident. Now I easily make 8x their salary while they've maxed out their earning potential. What in the world is the point of being bitter about those 4 years?

 

[allantois]

Don't try to argue with those above you in the medical field; it never ends well. @Psai is a rising MS4. His opinions hold much more clout since he's been through more of the process than we have.

That's such a flawed argument assuming that everyone who is above you in the medical training holds the same beliefs, which is most definitely not the case. If physicians want a better compensation during the residency years, it is the general public who this case should be presented to; and you won't get very far by telling them to just suck it up because you are the doctor and as a result the only one who understands the hardship.

 

[Affiche]

Don't try to argue with those above you in the medical field; it never ends well. @Psai is a rising MS4. His opinions hold much more clout since he's been through more of the process than we have.

This is a matter of understanding privilege, not being further along in a career path. I don't care if I'm discussing opinions with an attending (although my PI agrees that he is in a privileged career), the fact of the matter is that physicians are significantly better off than the large majority of income earners in this country. Having job security and a high income is a privilege, regardless of the sacrifices one makes to get there. Just because he's at a point where he feels the debt more than the salary doesn't change that.

Edit: his opinion doesn't hold anything when he's attempting to speak for the entire impoverished population and, as an impoverished individual, I strongly disagree with his statement. He doesn't get to speak for me.

 

[Affiche]

Comparing a temporary period of making a lower salary, with people who are stuck making that same salary for life with little to no chance of advancement, is asinine. Yeah, I made less per hour than the janitors when I was a resident. Now I easily make 8x their salary while they've maxed out their earning potential. What in the world is the point of being bitter about those 4 years?

This. Exactly this.

 

[Psai]

So then do I get to weigh in as an attending and cancel out everybody else's opinion??

Comparing a temporary period of making a lower salary, with people who are stuck making that same salary for life with little to no chance of advancement, is asinine. Yeah, I made less per hour than the janitors when I was a resident. Now I easily make 8x their salary while they've maxed out their earning potential. What in the world is the point of being bitter about those 4 years?

what about the 4 years of making negative money? tuition alone is probably around 50k a year and with 6% interest that grows pretty quickly during school. also have to account for living expenses and incidentals. what about all that lost time? just because others have it worse doesn't make your situation any better. you're already an attending. the future is looking a lot worse for people who are just starting their medical careers and the pay is not one of the more important contributing factors. but i'm not here so that i can have a measuring contest with a janitor

 

[deleted480308]

what about the 4 years of making negative money? tuition alone is probably around 50k a year and with 6% interest that grows pretty quickly during school. also have to account for living expenses and incidentals. what about all that lost time? just because others have it worse doesn't make your situation any better. you're already an attending. the future is looking a lot worse for people who are just starting their medical careers and the pay is not one of the more important contributing factors. but i'm not here so that i can have a measuring contest with a janitor

It's the opportunity cost, it's higher than it used to be but as adults we all make the call if it's worth it when we show up

 

[Lucca]

what about the 4 years of making negative money? tuition alone is probably around 50k a year and with 6% interest that grows pretty quickly during school. also have to account for living expenses and incidentals. what about all that lost time? just because others have it worse doesn't make your situation any better. you're already an attending. the future is looking a lot worse for people who are just starting their medical careers and the pay is not one of the more important contributing factors. but i'm not here so that i can have a measuring contest with a janitor

As if being a physician was just a paycheck every two weeks. The amount you are paid for work does not equate to actual value of that work. Sure, that is frustrating given the amount of debt involved but there are other aspects to "work" regardless of nature other than the paycheck. People working on oil rigs make 6 figures. They also live away from their family for extended periods of time and have extremely dangerous working environments. PhDs toil away making pennies for years in the hope of getting a job that hardly exists anymore so that they can contribute something meaningful to human knowledge; some of them may do more good for the human race than any individual physician ever could. I don't really think it gets much better than having infinite credit in your early 20s with incredible earning potential and very little responsibility outside of being a student. Sure, medical school is hard and it can break you and your friends will make a lot more than you working fewer hours and in cushier workplaces but one day when your age group collectively wakes up in bed and asks "Where did my life go?" do you feel your answer will be more positive than theirs? What about the intellectual satisfaction? The opportunity to be of service? The instant credibility among your peers? The diverse range of clinical and non-clinical career paths open to you? A set of skills transferable throughout the planet and in almost all circumstances? I think the Janitor would lost this measuring contest even if he was paid 300k a year.

 

[22031 Alum]

what about the 4 years of making negative money? tuition alone is probably around 50k a year and with 6% interest that grows pretty quickly during school. also have to account for living expenses and incidentals. what about all that lost time? just because others have it worse doesn't make your situation any better. you're already an attending. the future is looking a lot worse for people who are just starting their medical careers and the pay is not one of the more important contributing factors. but i'm not here so that i can have a measuring contest with a janitor

We all knew 8 years of paying tuition was part of the process... I promise you can pay down that debt when you get out. Will you be able to have a big house and luxury car and vacation home while living in San Francisco while doing it? Nope - although if you play your cards right that could eventually be your lifestyle. So if that was your expectation going in, or if you feel you deserve that lifestyle RIGHT NOW for whatever reason, I understand the bitterness.

 

[Psai]

We all knew 8 years of paying tuition was part of the process... I promise you can pay down that debt when you get out. Will you be able to have a big house and luxury car and vacation home while living in San Francisco while doing it? Nope - although if you play your cards right that could eventually be your lifestyle. So if that was your expectation going in, or if you feel you deserve that lifestyle RIGHT NOW for whatever reason, I understand the bitterness.

no it's not about lifestyle. it's the expectation of going through all this education and have it mean something. but instead what we have are ridiculous "quality measures" that don't measure anything substantial and checkbox medicine instituted by government, insurance companies and administrators where they expect you to run through a predetermined algorithm. in fact, your pay will be docked if you don't match up to whatever is the flavor of the month for cms. medicine is not about helping people anymore. it's about moving people through the assembly line as you fill out continuous meaningless electronic busywork. the road is long and difficult with a delayed payout. is it worth it? doubtful

 

[22031 Alum]

no it's not about lifestyle. it's the expectation of going through all this education and have it mean something. but instead what we have are ridiculous "quality measures" that don't measure anything substantial and checkbox medicine instituted by government, insurance companies and administrators where they expect you to run through a predetermined algorithm. in fact, your pay will be docked if you don't match up to whatever is the flavor of the month for cms. medicine is not about helping people anymore. it's about moving people through the assembly line as you fill out continuous meaningless electronic busywork. the road is long and difficult with a delayed payout. is it worth it? doubtful

My practice is nothing like what you describe, and I know plenty of people in many different specialties who would say the same. I am going to pull the "I'm an attending" card here and say that you have no idea of the true scope/variety of opportunities that will one day be available to you. It will be far far wider than in most other career fields.

Edit-- I'd also point out that your complaints- which sound like you've had a sad number of interactions with physicians who are actually happy- would still be there with a seven-figure salary. So unless you are saying you have a price at which you wouldn't care about "not making a difference," none of your points even apply to the salary issue.

 

[Psai]

everyone has a price

 

[MyNameWasUsed]

man this is better than facebook debates

 

[22031 Alum]

everyone has a price

I won't argue that. I'm not sure what my price is. But I have a lot of pride in my work, and the difference that I'm able to make, and am satisfied making many multiples of the family income I grew up with (even though plenty of people make more than I do and have less debt than I do and drive bigger cars than I do and travel to the Seychelles more than I do), so I guess I don't have to find out.

All your bitterness makes me think that even if you reached whatever your price is, you'd still find something to be unhappy about. Because someone will always be richer, or more powerful, or more respected, no matter what you do.

I'm sorry that what you described in your other post is the primary experience you've had in medicine so far. I hope you get the chance to interact with some physicians who actually like what they do and that you find a specialty you're happy with.

 

[deleted393595]

man this is better than facebook debates

Welcome to SDN 🙂

I won't argue that. I'm not sure what my price is. But I have a lot of pride in my work, and the difference that I'm able to make, and am satisfied making many multiples of the family income I grew up with (even though plenty of people make more than I do and have less debt than I do and drive bigger cars than I do and travel to the Seychelles more than I do), so I guess I don't have to find out.

All your bitterness makes me think that even if you reached whatever your price is, you'd still find something to be unhappy about. Because someone will always be richer, or more powerful, or more respected, no matter what you do.

I'm sorry that what you described in your other post is the primary experience you've had in medicine so far. I hope you get the chance to interact with some physicians who actually like what they do and that you find a specialty you're happy with.

But how do you deal with your frustration over checkbox medicine and inane mandates from Medicare bureaucrats?

 

[GiveMeThatMD]

man look at all these super generous premeds with their willingness to work for 50k and moonlight and all that to help people
guaranteed not a single one of you will accept a 50k salary as an attending and justify it as okay because some people make minimum wage
not sure why that comes up all the time, it's not like we're going through years of hard work and starting to make money in our 30s so that we can get paid nibblets

i'm looking at well over 6 figures in debt already and i'm not even done with school yet. it is only getting worse from here. my tuition this year is probably 150% of what it was the year before i started. you guys can work for nothing all you want and tell me about how other people have it worse but it's not relevant to me at all, especially when you haven't put in any hard work or sacrifice

That's not really too fair a comparison. The salary of attending is what justifies the loans needed. Working through residency is like chasing the light at the end of the tunnel. If attending salary was a mere 50k that included the 200k+ cost of med school, there'd be no doctors. Period.

 

[22031 Alum]

But how do you deal with your frustration over checkbox medicine and inane mandates from Medicare bureaucrats?

Not sure if serious, but I don't feel like I deal with either often enough to affect my daily practice. My residents don't complain about it either...

 

[deleted393595]

Not sure if serious, but I don't feel like I deal with either often enough to affect my daily practice. My residents don't complain about it either...

Heck. I'm not an attending or even a med student yet, but I feel that @Psai still has a point since academia is not private practice. You aren't exposed to the same pressures (I think) that the hospitalists and non-academia people have.

 

[22031 Alum]

Heck. I'm not an attending or even a med student yet, but I feel that @Psai still has a point since academia is not private practice. You aren't exposed to the same pressures (I think) that the hospitalists and non-academia people have.

That's true, and it's also probably true that my field is less susceptible to that in general. I have very close friends in private practice (generalist and subspecialty OB/GYN especially, but other fields as well) who don't complain about those things either. And we bitch and moan to each other a lot, so you'd think it would come up. If it's that big of a concern for you, to the point that you're ranting about it before even starting residency, there's an easy solution- plan on a practice setting where that isn't a problem. Like I said before, medicine has a broader range of options than most other jobs.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

My 1-working parent will be retiring soon, and after college, it will be my responsibility to financially support my parents and extended family. (Just to clarify, they're not really forcing me to do this, per se, but it has sort of been a tacit agreement ever since I was little. Plus, I feel a moral obligation to support them. tl;dr I am willing.) This will only work if I get a real paying job right after college. Spending 4 years in med school, accumulating nothing but debt, seems more and more ridiculous to me with each passing day. With med school being 4 years, and residency another 4 years (conservative estimation), that adds up to a whopping 8 years without an income.

I had to put off undergrad for almost a decade to support my family, and I'll still be supporting them throughout med school and residency, so I understand where you're coming from.

First, I'd talk with your family and find out explicitly what they expect from you. Are they able to make it until you're at least done with med school? As others have pointed out, you'll be paid during residency. There are various loan repayment plans that will make your debt more manageable, and depending on your current lifestyle, you may be able to help out during these years. (I may be in the minority here, but $50k is ton of money to my family, even with debt.) And once you're an attending, you can easily pay back your loans while supporting your relatives.

tl;dr - Are you willing to wait a few years to support your family if it means you can help more once you're a doctor?

 

[Chocolate Thief]

why does the OP need to support his parents AND extended family

I have grandparents in another country who are nearing 80 and still cannot retire, despite their terrible health, because they are the breadwinners for other relatives who are jobless and suffering from incapacitating/terminal health conditions. When I say "financially support," I don't literally mean I will buy them a mansion to live in. The point is to make enough money to let the elderly retire already. And it's not like I mean to support all my distant distant distant aunts/uncles/cousins; just 5 excluding my parents.

 

[Gauss44]

Pre-med can be ridiculously expensive.

(Not even having access to enough money to continue has ended or postponed the pre-med journey for some. It's one thing to stop because you notice debt is building up, and another to stop because you are OUT of money entirely, can't get a loan, and have no financial choice which has happened to people I've known.)

MCAT expense alone:

-MCAT books (Free prep material is NOT as good, and for many people, inadequate)
-Tutor and MCAT course if needed
-TIME for studying (and not working as much)*
-Room and board while studying (potentially including student loan payments, health insurance, dental insurance, medical bills, moving expense,...)
-Extras such as meditation or counseling for test anxiety if applicable (In my experience as a teacher, financial disadvantages tend to produce or enhance anxiety.)
-Travel expense if no MCAT exams are available near you.
etc.

Student loans and bank loans to cover MCAT study time might not be available to everyone in every situation, or even to the majority. This is NOT usually based on need.

*My experience was that it was cheaper overall NOT to work because the MCAT is a game of remembering a lot material all at one time. Taking too long to study, due to a job, can mean MORE studying overall (in aggregate).

Interviews:

-Air fare to EVERY interview
-Suits
-Interview prep (unless you forgo that which may be a disadvantage relative those who can afford it)

Two reasons a job isn't enough:

-My experience has been that is most relevant to applying to medical school either, 1. requires volunteering unpaid or knowing someone to get hired, 2. requires an expensive training course with no guarantee of a job, or 3. pays very little.

-Even the best job that many recent college graduates can get will barely cover rent, food, and fixed expenses, so saving money is a very slow process if even possible at all.

OP's question of has anyone considered quitting premed due to expense:
I've entertained the idea, maybe not so seriously, of working on Wall Street instead. And instead of being a doctor, being a philanthropist who gives lots of money to good causes including medical facilities. Investment bankers and partners and some associates in major financial and legal firms make much more money than doctors... but they have very different jobs. I just don't think I would be as passionate about those jobs.

 

[Affiche]

Pre-med can be ridiculously expensive.

(Not even having access to enough money to continue has ended or postponed the pre-med journey for some. It's one thing to stop because you notice debt is building up, and another to stop because you are OUT of money entirely, can't get a loan, and have no financial choice which has happened to people I've known.)

MCAT expense alone:

-MCAT books (Free prep material is NOT as good, and for many people, inadequate)
-Tutor and MCAT course if needed
-TIME for studying (and not working as much)*
-Room and board while studying (potentially including student loan payments, health insurance, dental insurance, medical bills, moving expense,...)
-Extras such as meditation or counseling for test anxiety if applicable (In my experience as a teacher, financial disadvantages tend to produce or enhance anxiety.)
-Travel expense if no MCAT exams are available near you.
etc.

Student loans and bank loans to cover MCAT study time might not be available to everyone in every situation, or even to the majority. This is NOT usually based on need.

*My experience was that it was cheaper overall NOT to work because the MCAT is a game of remembering a lot material all at one time. Taking too long to study, due to a job, can mean MORE studying overall (in aggregate).

Interviews:

-Air fare to EVERY interview
-Suits
-Interview prep (unless you forgo that which may be a disadvantage relative those who can afford it)

Two reasons a job isn't enough:

-My experience has been that is most relevant to applying to medical school either, 1. requires volunteering unpaid or knowing someone to get hired, 2. requires an expensive training course with no guarantee of a job, or 3. pays very little.

-Even the best job that many recent college graduates can get will barely cover rent, food, and fixed expenses, so saving money is a very slow process if even possible at all.

OP's question of has anyone considered quitting premed due to expense:
I've entertained the idea, maybe not so seriously, of working on Wall Street instead. And instead of being a doctor, being a philanthropist who gives lots of money to good causes including medical facilities. Investment bankers and partners and some associates in major financial and legal firms make much more money than doctors... but they have very different jobs. I just don't think I would be as passionate about those jobs.

What? This is not an accurate description of realistic expenses for a pre-med.

-Again, used books off eBay are perfectly acceptable for the MCAT (that's what I used as well as all of my friends currently in medical school).
-There's no reason to throw money at a tutor for the MCAT
-Balancing full-time work and MCAT studying is perfectly do-able (again, did it myself)
-You have to pay for room and board regardless, so this is not an expense of being pre-med or the MCAT lol
-Meditation and counseling is also not an expense for the MCAT lol
-If you plan decently well, there's no reason to travel far for the MCAT, especially with the improvements they've made here for the new MCAT.

-Chances of getting accepted are best at your state school, so airfare to every interview is insane. I'm trying to move out of state for med school and I don't anticipate flying more than twice. Most interviews will be in driving distance and if not, you self-selected to apply to places you'd have to fly to.
-Who actually pays for interview prep? I've never heard of this. Any career center on campus should be helping with this.

And finally, if the OP is really financially strapped, he would qualify for FAP, which would cover most of the MCAT registration, pretty much all of the prep material (all AAMC materials + Khan is free to everyone), primaries to 15 schools and secondaries for essentially every school he applies to (save a few, like Tulane, which only reduces the cost).

 

[goldy490]

I have grandparents in another country who are nearing 80 and still cannot retire, despite their terrible health, because they are the breadwinners for other relatives who are jobless and suffering from incapacitating/terminal health conditions. When I say "financially support," I don't literally mean I will buy them a mansion to live in. The point is to make enough money to let the elderly retire already. And it's not like I mean to support all my distant distant distant aunts/uncles/cousins; just 5 excluding my parents.

Wow, I'm very sorry to hear about that...not the situation that I expected at all. Check out my earlier post. If you're just supporting them financially (not literally caring for them), then a job in a healthcare related field would probably benefit you very well. Theres a huge shortage of people to work in healthcare related fields like consulting (ie Triage) or software development (ie. EPIC), so maybe really look there. They pay fresh college grads VERY well, and you can retain enough healthcare related involvement that one day you can return to medical school when it's more realistic. If you take and do well in some relevant classes (like economics), you also wont need to go for another degree like a BSN. Just my 2 cents, wish you and your family the best 👍

 

[FutureOncologist]

PA school OP. Being completely serious right now. Almost all the autonomy with 3/4 of the schooling. If you have to leave college due to money issues, find a job that gets you Health Care Experience (HCE). That way, you're earning a necessity to be competitive for PA schools AND you're making money to help the family. It's a win/win situation for you in the long run.

 

[GoPens]

What? This is not an accurate description of realistic expenses for a pre-med.

-Again, used books off eBay are perfectly acceptable for the MCAT (that's what I used as well as all of my friends currently in medical school).
-There's no reason to throw money at a tutor for the MCAT
-Balancing full-time work and MCAT studying is perfectly do-able (again, did it myself)
-You have to pay for room and board regardless, so this is not an expense of being pre-med or the MCAT lol
-Meditation and counseling is also not an expense for the MCAT lol
-If you plan decently well, there's no reason to travel far for the MCAT, especially with the improvements they've made here for the new MCAT.

-Chances of getting accepted are best at your state school, so airfare to every interview is insane. I'm trying to move out of state for med school and I don't anticipate flying more than twice. Most interviews will be in driving distance and if not, you self-selected to apply to places you'd have to fly to.
-Who actually pays for interview prep? I've never heard of this. Any career center on campus should be helping with this.

And finally, if the OP is really financially strapped, he would qualify for FAP, which would cover most of the MCAT registration, pretty much all of the prep material (all AAMC materials + Khan is free to everyone), primaries to 15 schools and secondaries for essentially every school he applies to (save a few, like Tulane, which only reduces the cost).

This. So many of those things originally listed are completely unnecessary. There's plenty of ways to cut costs and still get the same result.