Quoted: Prayer in the classroom

[Doodledog]

A question about prayer in medical school classrooms.

I attend a medical school where most of the students are Christian. The school's non-discrimination clause includes race, sex, creed, national origin, age, and handicap. As an atheist, I was not comfortable applying to religious schools, and although I knew this school had a large Christian student body, I assumed that since the school did not discriminate in its admissions on the basis of creed, that I would not have to worry about religious ceremonies being a part of my education. I was dismayed the first time we had prayer during class. I have spoken up about it, but not to much avail, perhaps because I am strongly outnumbered. I am upset by what I consider to be my two unacceptable options of either sitting through the overtly Christian prayer or walking out of the lecture hall when it happens. However, it is clear to me that my beliefs are unpopular with some faculty as well as students, and I do not want to be ostracized by continuing to pursue this issue. Do you think this is a battle that is reasonable for me to try to fight, or would it be better for me to just accept that I am in the minority? (I have also considered transferring, but it seems like that would be a long shot.) Thanks very much for any thoughts you may have.

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[Doodledog]

A question about prayer in medical school classrooms.

Okay, as someone whose religious beliefs are not those shared by the majority of Americans, I understand the feeling of separateness caused by having to sit through prayers addressed to a deity you don't believe in. However, I have to say that as long as: 1) They don't expect you to join in and 2) They don't otherwise discriminate against you in any way for not participating, then I would let it be. Try to avoid the situations as best you can, but my personal advice and experience is that this is a losing battle, one that will cause you more harm than any benefit, and you should not take it on unless you are directly being discriminated against.

 

[MDpride]

Please answer this

was there a prayer session in their curriculum plan supplied during registration?

was it impossible for you to check beforehand some inside information about that college?
on SDN or somewhere?
There are thread that discuss how religious is XYZ college?


Did they started this prayer thing first time?

How can the prayer start in the middle of class session?

Don't you think that by avoiding prayer you would be further ostracized the very thing you fear?

If you transferred, what reason will you give to other college for doing so?

Will they be understanding of you ?

SORRY about your situation.

 

[Doodledog]

Some answers from the OP. For those who wish to respond further, remember that this forum is for providing advice to members, not for more general discussions and insults or similar comments will be edited out.

To answer MDpride's questions,

1. Prayer is not a part of the curriculum of the school, and it was not advertised to me in any form before I matriculated.

2. No, it wasn't impossible for me to ask about prayer before matriculating at the school, but the thought never occurred to me. In my experiences at other schools, prayer has been something that just absolutely does not happen in the classroom. I wasn't even sure that such a thing was legal, aside from at religious schools (as opposed to schools with religious students).

3. I don't know if there are SDN threads that discuss how religious the school is. I did not see any like that when I was applying.

4. My understanding is that prayer in the classroom is somewhat of a tradition at this school.

5. The prayer doesn't happen in the middle of class, it happens at the beginning, kind of like the Pledge of Allegiance, but it is during scheduled class time, and can go on for quite awhile.

6. I'm sure people notice that I do not participate in the prayers, but I can't in good conscience just go along with everything (bowing my head, saying amen, etc.) since I am not Christian. It's one thing to try to make the prayer end completely for everyone involved, and it's another for me to personally opt out. I am more concerned about being ostracized by attempting the former.

7. I am not sure that transferring would be a realistic option, and I think it is unlikely that I would really want to pursue that. However, perhaps I could make a case for myself on the grounds that I would prefer to finish up my education at a school that truly welcomes students from all religious backgrounds. As I said in my original post, I think that might be a long shot, anyway.

8. I'm not sure whom you're asking about when you say "Will they be understanding of you?" Regardless, I suppose I can't foresee how anyone will react to my concerns. The issue is more of whether or not to raise them in the first place.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[strangeglove]

Does this institution receive any federal or state funds for medical education? If so, this may very well be illegal.

 

[MDpride]

Some answers from the OP. For those who wish to respond further, remember that this forum is for providing advice to members, not for more general discussions and insults or similar comments will be edited out.

Questions I asked, I tried to put myself in your situation.
Sorry, if it has insulted or offended you.

I am non-christian too. I sometimes think about what happened to you but did not expect it to happen in reality.

Thank you for bringing this up.

SOLUTION:

See if u can make friends with someone who can understand where u are coming from. That friend can work towards making more friends for you which in turn will understand you.
Thus, you need to find one person who is willing to understand you. that person can be either professor or student.
Good if both.

Also, make the point that there are similarities between two religions.

Only through love, grace,and diplomacy you can solve this situation.
This is a very fragile situation.
Post back if my solution works.

 

[Doodledog]

6. I'm sure people notice that I do not participate in the prayers, but I can't in good conscience just go along with everything (bowing my head, saying amen, etc.) since I am not Christian. It's one thing to try to make the prayer end completely for everyone involved, and it's another for me to personally opt out. I am more concerned about being ostracized by attempting the former.

As someone who has attended many services in other religious communities, I've learned to look forward or lower my head (out of respect, not religious faith) during prayers based on another faith. There is never a need to say "amen" to a prayer one doesn't believe in. However, in a group, this won't be noticed. Religious freedom is very strong and highly protected in America - act respectfully in these settings and I believe you will not have a hard time. Try to make friends with your classmates and gently, very gently, explain that you are not able to participate in their worship, but respect them for it. This soft approach will maintain your integrity and help you to get along. Then be prepared for a career of taking night-call on Christmas.

 

[Doodledog]

answer to Q about federal funds....

Thanks again to everyone for your comments.

Yes, the school does receive federal and state funds.

Tildy, I'd have no problem taking night-call on Christmas! Maybe I'll see you there in a few years.

 

[theraball]

OP, I can relate to your experience, to an extent. I am a Jew who attended a K-12 Episcopalian private school because it was a very high quality school versus the abysmal public schools in my town. I sat through chapel every morning for twelve years as a non-participating attendee. The school didn't make me bow my head or sing, but I had to be there. What did I get out of this? I know the Episcopal liturgy pretty well and I can play you hymns on the piano all day long! I didn't disrespect the church, I just didn't go along with it, and they didn't press their beliefs on me (I wasn't the only non-Episcopalian there).

I would suggest you just focus on your courses and let the prayers float right past you if you can. It's only for four semesters, anyway. No one can morally or legally impugn you for ignoring prayers. If the school or some of your peers start pressuring you to participate, that's another thing entirely. You might also try earplugs; they make these clear silicone ones that are barely noticeable.

Best of luck,
TB

 

[Empi]

I am a Christian but I'm concerned that you would feel alienated because of this within a classroom setting.

I have classmates who are Hindu and Muslim and some Athiests thrown in for good measure. I would not want them to feel isolated.

When I pray in the classroom, it is quite silent and personal. (It's usually a prayer of despair right before an exam )

 

[Lieutenant]

Hi, there! Tildy, were you able to resolve your situation?

I concur with Empi. I am also Christian, and do not want you to feel uncomfortable while sitting in class.

 

[Doodledog]

Hi, there! Tildy, were you able to resolve your situation?

I concur with Empi. I am also Christian, and do not want you to feel uncomfortable while sitting in class.

Tildy is just the dog who transmits the info, not the actual person with the question. It's up to them whether they want to follow-up (using PM is best) and have me post the resolution to their situation.

 

[Jesus DO]

A question about prayer in medical school classrooms.

Dear person to whom this concerns.

I can greatly sympathize from were you are comming from. I am a Christian myself, but many times, I feel that people who share my own faith can easily overstep their proper decorum and become tyrants.

I would strongly suggest to you that you find a faculty member whom you can identify with - and are close friends with - and try to work something out.

You say that you are afraid you will be ostracized by your classmates? I find that very sad to hear - but I am sure there are some extremely diplomatic people in your class who will be willing to listen to you and work with you. EVERY medical school has those kinds of people. Make friends with them.

I really hope you can find a constructive way to work things out. I wish you the best. I will post again later tommorow - but it is getting late.

 

[futuredrcrawfor]

I am very sorry for this person- it is probably wrong for a school to do this- I would be interested in knowing the school since I am a Christian and would like that enviroment

But to the point- as a Christian I can relate because I would be very uncomfortable if we did a Muslim, Hindu, etc service, ritual in a classroom.

Religion is something that is very much a personal matter and unless the school advertises as a religious institution (I know Loma Linda and a couple others are) then they should be more considerate of others religion. And besides most schools have organizations for different religious groups.

I would be interested to receive a PM with the school name if you would be comfortable with it and of course I wouldn't post anything about that specific school here.

 

[Jesus DO]

A question about prayer in medical school classrooms.

I attend a medical school where most of the students are Christian. The school's non-discrimination clause includes race, sex, creed, national origin, age, and handicap. As an atheist, I was not comfortable applying to religious schools, and although I knew this school had a large Christian student body, I assumed that since the school did not discriminate in its admissions on the basis of creed, that I would not have to worry about religious ceremonies being a part of my education. I was dismayed the first time we had prayer during class. I have spoken up about it, but not to much avail, perhaps because I am strongly outnumbered. I am upset by what I consider to be my two unacceptable options of either sitting through the overtly Christian prayer or walking out of the lecture hall when it happens. However, it is clear to me that my beliefs are unpopular with some faculty as well as students, and I do not want to be ostracized by continuing to pursue this issue. Do you think this is a battle that is reasonable for me to try to fight, or would it be better for me to just accept that I am in the minority? (I have also considered transferring, but it seems like that would be a long shot.) Thanks very much for any thoughts you may have.

Hi, it is me again:

When the school holds this prayer session - are you feeling uncomfortable because they are speaking against certain groups of people that might not share the religious belief that is espoused by the school you attend?

For example, in this prayer session - let say the person doing it adds something like, "And may those people of X religion see their gross error and be corrected"

If that is what is happening - then it is my opinion that the school is quite wrong for allowing such events to take place. You stated that the school does not discriminate based on religion - if what you say is true then I would definantly try to find some way to address the situation at hand. Like I had said earlier - find the diplomatic people in your class. If you are polite, kind, and speak your position respectfully - they'll help you out...I definantly would help you out if the school I was attending allowed for prayer sessions that was exclusive and discriminated against other people.

You stated that you felt like people were ostracizing you. I grew up in public education all my life and attend a state school right now. I cannot magine what it must be like to be isolated from class - let alone at a medical school. When I read that you were afraid that people were ostracizing you, I felt really bad that something like that would happen.

I guess, being polite is the key here. If you are polite about it and they are treating you disrespectfully - then my advice is to continue to be polite to them. You are in a tight situation. If they are disrespectful to you, then do not make the situation worse by returning fire with fire. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

It is of my personal feelings - that if these prayers that they are holding does in fact represent a form of discrimination that targets other religious groups, or if they are somehow sessions that are directly targetting your beliefs - then you are obliged to act. It is of my opinion that something like that clearly violates your rights - and also is indecent. Outright discrimination is wrong.

If this is the case, then again, find somebody in your class or faculty that is diplomatic - prefferably someone that is well liked by everyone - and talk to whoever he or she is. If that person is an upright, moral person, and worth his or her salt - then he or she has the ethical obligation to help you. Discrimination is not acceptable, and must be addressed.

Now, if these prayer sessions are not targetting anyone in particular - but rather something along the lines of "Today Lord give us your wisdom and thank you for this beautiful day. Amen," then in my humble opinion this is completely different. In this case, my advice to you is just to just be politely doing something else while they are praying. You can study something like Robbins, or Cecils, or Harrisons while they are having their worship session...this being said - if someone is trying to force you while you are studying into their prayer session - then I think that is quite inappropriate for them to do that and you should find some way to adress that.



Again, I wish you the best and hope something constructive can be done. Please let us know if everything worked out ok.

 

[MDpride]

is it possible for OP to PM me the name of college so that I can reconsider my decision to attend such college if I have decided to go for that college?
OP, this will help me to avoid the pain you are going through

Thank You

 

[Doodledog]

is it possible for OP to PM me the name of college so that I can reconsider my decision to attend such college if I have decided to go for that college?
OP, this will help me to avoid the pain you are going through

Thank You

They certainly can PM you if they want, but don't expect it. Presumably, they posted anonymously for a reason. Also, remember, n=1. Maybe you would have a different experience there?

 

[MDpride]

They certainly can PM you if they want, but don't expect it. Presumably, they posted anonymously for a reason. Also, remember, n=1. Maybe you would have a different experience there?

different people can have different level of sensitivity so that can be true.
knowing helps identify that.

 

[Doodledog]

From the OP (remember, this is the OP, NOT Tildy):


Thanks again to everyone who has provided feedback and advice. I appreciate it. Basically, I am getting better at figuring out when and where prayer is going to take place at my school, and then just avoiding it. Unfortunately, sometimes this means sitting in the hallway and guessing when it is okay to enter class, or missing events that I would otherwise like to attend. The situation still bothers me, and honestly, I am not very happy at the medical school I am attending, partly because of this. For example, we recently had a guest lecturer speaking on a research topic that interests me. I went to the lecture, and was shocked when, after some initial introductory remarks from faculty at my school, the speaker was preceded by a prayer. I noticed that the guest speaker (from another school) stared at the wall during the prayer. I felt both angry for not having successfully avoided this prayer session, and embarrassed for how my school seemed to be making even a guest lecturer uncomfortable.

To answer some of the previous posters' questions, the style and content of the prayers varies. They almost always invoke the name of Jesus, and sometimes last so long that they are more like sermons than prayers. The ones that make me most uncomfortable are drawn out and involve praising Jesus for various things and thanking God for guiding us to accept Jesus into our lives, etc. I am not an expert on Christian denominations, but the style seems to bear the greatest resemblance to Southern Baptist preaching.

Also, I really would rather not name the school, even privately. If you are applying to medical school and concerned about this issue, I think it's okay to ask about it if you visit the school. Try to ask some students in a polite and respectful way. I know it can be a difficult topic to broach (especially on an interview day), but it is an important one, and your inquiries shouldn't be a problem.

Basically, I am just trying to hang in there and focus on my studies as much as possible. However, if a particular professor makes an anti-Semitic or otherwise religiously intolerant comment during lecture, I make a note of it and mention it later on the course evaluation. I hope that these evaluations help at least a little to make a difference in my academic experience.

 

[ATPMD]

If I may make a suggestion, hopefully prayer does not upset you. If it does, you may try to tune them out in some way. Read a book. It would of course be easier if you were on your cell or listening to your ipod etc, but I would not advise it, as some people would find it disrespectful. You don't want to do that. You should show that you even though you don't share their beliefs, you respect them. This would cause the least trouble in my opinion.

If you would rather be absent altogether, try a seat near a door, or getting to class a few minutes late. If the problem lies with a particular teacher, you can always wait outside and ask him/her to signal you afterwards. That should be a reasonable request.

 

[FruitFly]

You shouldn't let it affect you. If it's not something you believe in, then it should be nothing more than literature or an art. I'm not Christian, either, but I would find some way I could appreciate it and respect that these folks need this to get by. I would have the strength of mind to focus on my own thoughts and not let it affect me. I'm sure they're good people. As long as the whole social life there doesn't revolve around prayer, I'm sure you could find commonalities.

 

[ar2388]

is this something that maybe you can talk do a dean about? if you are really truly unhappy enough to transfer, i would maybe think about contacting the deans of admissions or someone like that at schools you are interested in and explaining your situation to them?
i guess my advice would be to talk to your adviser and see if they can point you to either someone in your school who is also atheist and you can talk to you or advise you in some other way... good luck. This is really unfortunate. I would probably just keep sitting at my desk during the prayer and reading my notes for the upcoming class or something of that sort.