Racism in adcoms: something I hear over and over again

[rxlea]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I don't see it as racism and my point isn't to try to change your mind because you're going to believe what you want and that's fine. I do not see it as racism because it is used to improve the healthcare arena. It can only lead to positive results and these results are necessary in medicine. The number one priority in the medical field is the patients, not non-URMs concern about being slighted in the application process. If URM status as a practice helps more URM patients go to the doctor regularly, trust doctors, etc.., this is all that matters. There are so many URM patients who refuse to go to the doctor regularly because in their words, "they do not trust white people." It is much more common than you think. Of course if there is an emergency, they are forced to go the E.R., but that is an enitrely different situation...life or death.

American Indians come to mind here...

Non-URMs act as if URMs take up so many of their seats. Honestly, URMs, in terms of medical school seats, in some schools do not even represent the number of seats that would correspond to their % representation in this country. On average, URMs may take up 20 seats in a class of 180, which is 11% of the class. In this country, URMs make up 29% of the population. So you're telling me that it is unfair when URMs make up less than half of their representation in this country when it comes to med school seats? The only group that takes up way more seats than their representation in this country are asians. So for you to complain about the 20 seats URMs take in order to improve the healthcare profession, it doesn't make sense.

I think the argument is that URMs can get in with lower standards. There is someone here at the hospital (white male) that had a very high GPA and didn't get into med school. But his friend, who had a much lower GPA, got into med school because he was an URM. They applied to the same school and interviewed the same day. They had essentially equivalent ECs and LORs. It makes sense to be upset about it, especially when you have to work that much harder to prove yourself yet others are getting in so easily. Furthermore, think about all the scholarships out there...how many are based strictly on merit? I am not saying I agree one way or another but I can certainly understand why many people would be frustrated about this.

 

[Cyradis]

I don't see it as racism and my point isn't to try to change your mind because you're going to believe what you want and that's fine. I do not see it as racism because it is used to improve the healthcare arena. It can only lead to positive results and these results are necessary in medicine. The number one priority in the medical field is the patients, not non-URMs concern about being slighted in the application process. If URM status as a practice helps more URM patients go to the doctor regularly, trust doctors, etc.., this is all that matters. There are so many URM patients who refuse to go to the doctor regularly because in their words, "they do not trust white people." It is much more common than you think. Of course if there is an emergency, they are forced to go the E.R., but that is an enitrely different situation...life or death. Non-URMs act as if URMs take up so many of their seats. Honestly, URMs, in terms of medical school seats, in some schools do not even represent the number of seats that would correspond to their % representation in this country. On average, URMs may take up 20 seats in a class of 180, which is 11% of the class. In this country, URMs make up 29% of the population. So you're telling me that it is unfair when URMs make up less than half of their representation in this country when it comes to med school seats? The only group that takes up way more seats than their representation in this country are asians. So for you to complain about the 20 seats URMs take in order to improve the healthcare profession, it doesn't make sense.

I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to get at - I'm not complaining about URM status or any benefit it gives them - I'm discussing what is/should be considered racism. To use your words, in this case the state of the healthcare arena is being improved by a racist policy of favoring URM. The problem I think is that in our society we're so ingrained to immediately react to any form of racism as being a terrible thing that when racism does something positive, we deny that it is racism.

I'm trying to show that URM status in med admissions IS racism, and that that racism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyways, here's the link I mentioned earlier (unrelated) about the effect of contact:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.107.9356&rep=rep1&type=pdf

It's pretty interesting... long article though. What I gathered from it though was that contact with other races decreases prejudice, except for contact with Asians. Contact with Asians decreases prejudice towards Asians, but increases prejudice overall, likely because Asians are themselves more prejudiced among other things (read the discussion, the authors talk about it). Important to note that the effects were, while statistically significant, pretty small. There might also be some problems with multiple comparisons... anyways. Interesting read if you guys are genuinely interested in the topic.

More or less agrees with what I've seen personally in anecdotal experience.

 

[mdbound1987]

American Indians come to mind here...



I think the argument is that URMs can get in with lower standards. There is someone here at the hospital (white male) that had a very high GPA and didn't get into med school. But his friend, who had a much lower GPA, got into med school because he was an URM. They applied to the same school and interviewed the same day. They had essentially equivalent ECs and LORs. It makes sense to be upset about it, especially when you have to work that much harder to prove yourself yet others are getting in so easily. Furthermore, think about all the scholarships out there...how many are based strictly on merit? I am not saying I agree one way or another but I can certainly understand why many people would be frustrated about this.

Ok from that perspective I can see why he would be upset. The only thing is...URMs deal with discrimination their entire lives, so it just seems odd when a non-URM gets one little ounce of discrimination that they would be so upset. You're right though, it does make sense to be upset because a non-URM is not used to being discriminated against whereas URMs are very used to it.

 

[mdbound1987]

I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to get at - I'm not complaining about URM status or any benefit it gives them - I'm discussing what is/should be considered racism. To use your words, in this case the state of the healthcare arena is being improved by a racist policy of favoring URM. The problem I think is that in our society we're so ingrained to immediately react to any form of racism as being a terrible thing that when racism does something positive, we deny that it is racism.

I'm trying to show that URM status in med admissions IS racism, and that that racism is not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyways, here's the link I mentioned earlier (unrelated) about the effect of contact:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.107.9356&rep=rep1&type=pdf

It's pretty interesting... long article though. What I gathered from it though was that contact with other races decreases prejudice, except for contact with Asians. Contact with Asians decreases prejudice towards Asians, but increases prejudice overall, likely because Asians are themselves more prejudiced among other things (read the discussion, the authors talk about it). Important to note that the effects were, while statistically significant, pretty small. There might also be some problems with multiple comparisons... anyways. Interesting read if you guys are genuinely interested in the topic.

More or less agrees with what I've seen personally in anecdotal experience.

Ok I understand your point now. I guess from that perspective that we can call this practice racism, but like you said, racism for good.

 

[JBomb]

You and JBomb are obviously have no idea what you are talking about. AA and URM status are two completely different things. AA accounts for something that occurred in the past and the school's attempt to take this into consideration in terms of how it affects that person in present-day life. URM status is given so that there will be more diversity in medicine because certain minority races need more physicians of the same race. Also, there is much to be said for diversity in medical school because non-urms can learn from urms how to better understand/relate to urm patients. These minority future physicians don't complain that they (even if URM status didn't exist) will have to be twice as proficient as all their white, asian, indian, etc. colleagues in order to gain the same amount of respect as a physician. This is the world we live in, so they just deal with it. This also answers your question of why a lot of people here don't talk about it much...because it's a reality, so just deal with it.

Either way AA and URM are both things used to discriminate against white people. I don't think that this is ok. It is institutionalized racism, and whatever label you want to slap over it doesn't change the fact that it is clearly racist. I don't see how it is "good for medicine." The only way to boost the amount of URMs in med school is to lower the standards of admission. That means more qualified people are being passed over for less qualified people. How does that help medicine? If I'm sick I want the best possible doctor to help me, I don't care what his race is.

 

[rxlea]

Ok from that perspective I can see why he would be upset. The only thing is...URMs deal with discrimination their entire lives, so it just seems odd when a non-URM gets one little ounce of discrimination that they would be so upset. You're right though, it does make sense to be upset because a non-URM is not used to being discriminated against whereas URMs are very used to it.

I wouldn't call not getting into med school because you are white male a "little ounce of discrimination". Seems to be a pretty big deal. I think you're missing the point here. There are many, many URMs in today's world who are not/have not been discriminated against, particularly in the last decade or two. I would say that "white guilt" has eradicated/suppressed a lot of the blatant discrimination people saw prior to the 90s. It is undoubtedly easier for URMs to get into med/pharm/dent school right now as well. There are a million scholarships for ethnic minorities. I am a double URM and I am able to see it. I do not deny that previous generations had a LOT to fight against and I do not deny that discrimination still finds its way into academia and the workplace but, for the most part, the government has given citizens (aside from gay people) ample protections against it. As far as I am concerned, "racism" is a word that people like to throw around when they don't like what people are saying/doing to them or when people are calling them out on something.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Back to the original topic: the experiment is clearly flawed in numerous ways. If you want to study "racism", you probably need to define exactly what that is first in a way that you can actually measure it.

 

[morning]

Either way AA and URM are both things used to discriminate against white people. I don't think that this is ok. It is institutionalized racism, and whatever label you want to slap over it doesn't change the fact that it is clearly racist. I don't see how it is "good for medicine." The only way to boost the amount of URMs in med school is to lower the standards of admission. That means more qualified people are being passed over for less qualified people. How does that help medicine? If I'm sick I want the best possible doctor to help me, I don't care what his race is.

The biggest beneficiary of affirmative action, historically, has been white women...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I wouldn't call not getting into med school because you are white male a "little ounce of discrimination". Seems to be a pretty big deal. I think you're missing the point here. There are many, many URMs in today's world who are not/have not been discriminated against, particularly in the last decade or two. I would say that "white guilt" has eradicated/suppressed a lot of the blatant discrimination people saw prior to the 90s. It is undoubtedly easier for URMs to get into med/pharm/dent school right now as well. There are a million scholarships for ethnic minorities. I am a double URM and I am able to see it. I do not deny that previous generations had a LOT to fight against and I do not deny that discrimination still finds its way into academia and the workplace but, for the most part, the government has given citizens (aside from gay people) ample protections against it. As far as I am concerned, "racism" is a word that people like to throw around when they don't like what people are saying/doing to them or when people are calling them out on something.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Back to the original topic: the experiment is clearly flawed in numerous ways. If you want to study "racism", you probably need to define exactly what that is first in a way that you can actually measure it.

that's a dumb premise. there is no discrimination against white males. if you can't even outcompete your racial/gender subgroup you should in fact not be a physician, disregarding the fact that med school admissions isn't strictly number based anyway. work hard, get a 3.8, get a 33. get in. it's that simple. the med school bar is high but not that high. deal with it.

to say URM these days aren't discriminated against as much is a useless argument because the discrimination still exists and it's still significant. besides, URM use in admissions isn't some sort of reparation mechanism which people seem to take it as. it's a short-term solution to a health issue.

 

[Narmerguy]

I wouldn't call not getting into med school because you are white male a "little ounce of discrimination". Seems to be a pretty big deal. I think you're missing the point here. There are many, many URMs in today's world who are not/have not been discriminated against, particularly in the last decade or two. I would say that "white guilt" has eradicated/suppressed a lot of the blatant discrimination people saw prior to the 90s. It is undoubtedly easier for URMs to get into med/pharm/dent school right now as well. There are a million scholarships for ethnic minorities. I am a double URM and I am able to see it. I do not deny that previous generations had a LOT to fight against and I do not deny that discrimination still finds its way into academia and the workplace but, for the most part, the government has given citizens (aside from gay people) ample protections against it. As far as I am concerned, "racism" is a word that people like to throw around when they don't like what people are saying/doing to them or when people are calling them out on something.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Back to the original topic: the experiment is clearly flawed in numerous ways. If you want to study "racism", you probably need to define exactly what that is first in a way that you can actually measure it.

Ehh...I can see what you're getting at but what you're saying isn't really true. Non urm don't get "denied" entrance to medical schools because of their ethnicity. They are denied entrance because the combination of academic merits, personality traits, and other interests is not more as valuable as someone else's. I think the problem I see many students make is that they subscribe no value to ethnic diversity in the physician workplace and thus cannot see how a student that has a combination of qualities that includes ethnic diversity can be admitted over someone else.

I also think you are intentionally being naive here. Racism is very clearly not some antiquated phenomenon that no longer exists save in isolated occurences. While I'm sure this is nothing like the 60s, anyone who has taken some sociology classes is well acquainted with the current extent of racism in the US.

I find dismissive posts like yours very much in denial of the opinions of almost all experts who study this topic. This is not an endorsement of AA (thogh the merits of a diverse physician base has already been explained) but a clear reminder that progress does not eliminate the need for continued progress.

 

[mdbound1987]

I wouldn't call not getting into med school because you are white male a "little ounce of discrimination". Seems to be a pretty big deal. I think you're missing the point here. There are many, many URMs in today's world who are not/have not been discriminated against, particularly in the last decade or two. I would say that "white guilt" has eradicated/suppressed a lot of the blatant discrimination people saw prior to the 90s. It is undoubtedly easier for URMs to get into med/pharm/dent school right now as well. There are a million scholarships for ethnic minorities. I am a double URM and I am able to see it. I do not deny that previous generations had a LOT to fight against and I do not deny that discrimination still finds its way into academia and the workplace but, for the most part, the government has given citizens (aside from gay people) ample protections against it. As far as I am concerned, "racism" is a word that people like to throw around when they don't like what people are saying/doing to them or when people are calling them out on something.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter. Back to the original topic: the experiment is clearly flawed in numerous ways. If you want to study "racism", you probably need to define exactly what that is first in a way that you can actually measure it.

Yes it is a pretty big deal, but when compared to an URM who goes through racism his/her entire life up until the age of approximately 22 when he/she applies to medical school, then is not discriminated against due to URM status during the admissions process, and then goes back to being discriminated against for the remainder of his/her life, it is not a big deal (in comparison of course). If URMs can deal with racism their entire lives, non-URMs can do what they have to do to get a 3.6 and 32+ mcat to get accepted. Just so you know, even the black kid who is wealthy, goes to private school, and can afford kaplan sat and mcat classes goes through racism simply because they are black. Everyone outside of his/her bubble sees him/her as a black person and makes judgments based upon that. It is all about appearance. Just like Barack Obama is black because when people see him on the street, he is treated like a black man because of his skin color. He isn't treated any better because he has a white mother because no one on the street knows he has a white mother...so once again, it is all about appearance. You are very misinformed about racism in this country and that's fine, but listen to people who know from experience. It isn't as blatant as it used to be 40+ years ago, but it is still very prevalent in every day life for URMs.

 

[mdbound1987]

Either way AA and URM are both things used to discriminate against white people. I don't think that this is ok. It is institutionalized racism, and whatever label you want to slap over it doesn't change the fact that it is clearly racist. I don't see how it is "good for medicine." The only way to boost the amount of URMs in med school is to lower the standards of admission. That means more qualified people are being passed over for less qualified people. How does that help medicine? If I'm sick I want the best possible doctor to help me, I don't care what his race is.

Obviously medical schools know how to pick the URMs who will become great physicians since they clearly make it through school. So for you to imply that a white person with a 3.8 and 35 mcat will be a better physician than a URM with a 3.4 and 25 every time, you are mistaken. Adcoms take into consideration the unique experiences this URM has experienced and if they feel the potential to become a great physician is there, they will admit him/her. If by choosing URMs with lower stats resulted in them failing out or becoming horrible physicians, do you think adcoms would admit them? This would be risking their reputation as an institution and more importantly, placing patients in danger, neither of which a medical school would do. By failing out, medical schools waste tons of money due to each medical student being an investment. This is obviously not the case. Essentially it comes down to the fact that adcoms know what is best in this regard much better than you or any other non-URM does. When you understand that and accept it, then you will focus more time on getting accepted than worrying about the 20 seats out of 170 that, in your mind, could keep you from becoming a physician. And I am not trying to say med schools should boost the number of URMs, I am simply saying that non-URMs should stop complaining about the 11% of seats that URMs take up.

 

[rxlea]

Ehh...I can see what you're getting at but what you're saying isn't really true. Non urm don't get "denied" entrance to medical schools because of their ethnicity. They are denied entrance because the combination of academic merits, personality traits, and other interests is not more as valuable as someone else's. I think the problem I see many students make is that they subscribe no value to ethnic diversity in the physician workplace and thus cannot see how a student that has a combination of qualities that includes ethnic diversity can be admitted over someone else.

I also think you are intentionally being naive here. Racism is very clearly not some antiquated phenomenon that no longer exists save in isolated occurences. While I'm sure this is nothing like the 60s, anyone who has taken some sociology classes is well acquainted with the current extent of racism in the US.

I find dismissive posts like yours very much in denial of the opinions of almost all experts who study this topic. This is not an endorsement of AA (thogh the merits of a diverse physician base has already been explained) but a clear reminder that progress does not eliminate the need for continued progress.

It was not my intention to sound dismissive and you make an excellent point that "progress does not eliminate the need for continued progress". The only problem I see with this is what people are currently referring to as "reverse racism". I can't offer more than numerous anecdotes of people's experiences with this...one of which was my partner's experience going to a predominantly African-American high school and getting harassed because of being white. There are probably some studies out there but, having taken a sociology class, I can tell you that this topic is not discussed as much as it should be (IMHO). The problem occurs when "the pendulum swings the other way", so to speak. I am not sure if a "happy medium" can be found and I am not sure if I can make my point clear here.

I do like that you pointed out that ethnic diversity contributes value to the physician workplace. Considering the changing demographics, it would make sense that we have physicians (and other healthcare practitioners) that can contribute cultural competence which, IMO, is extremely lacking in many otherwise qualified individuals. If it were up to me, cultural competence would be something to weave into med/pharm school curriculum. So, yes, I agree with you on that.

As for my comment about the word racism being thrown around...I have to say this is true. I think I heard the word "racist" and "racism" in the last two years more than I ever have before. Perhaps it is just that it was the perfect time to unearth many of the deep seeded issues within this country, who knows...I was called a racist because I believe that the SB1070 was a step in the right direction. How does something like that make someone racist? That is just one example.

Yes, racism exists but to blame many of society's problems solely on racism seems ignorant.

I do not mean to get off topic....I probably don't make sense Then again, I am typing from work and keep getting interrupted.

 

[wagmanager]

The biggest beneficiary of affirmative action, historically, has been white women...

.So true.Thank you so much for bringing this up. It goes to show what little most people know about AA or it's recipients.

 

[rxlea]

Yes it is a pretty big deal, but when compared to an URM who goes through racism his/her entire life up until the age of approximately 22 when he/she applies to medical school, then is not discriminated against due to URM status during the admissions process, and then goes back to being discriminated against for the remainder of his/her life, it is not a big deal (in comparison of course). If URMs can deal with racism their entire lives, non-URMs can do what they have to do to get a 3.6 and 32+ mcat to get accepted. Just so you know, even the black kid who is wealthy, goes to private school, and can afford kaplan sat and mcat classes goes through racism simply because they are black. Everyone outside of his/her bubble sees him/her as a black person and makes judgments based upon that. It is all about appearance. Just like Barack Obama is black because when people see him on the street, he is treated like a black man because of his skin color. He isn't treated any better because he has a white mother because no one on the street knows he has a white mother...so once again, it is all about appearance. You are very misinformed about racism in this country and that's fine, but listen to people who know from experience. It isn't as blatant as it used to be 40+ years ago, but it is still very prevalent in every day life for URMs.

Then the problem isn't with the adcoms, it is with education in general. People need to be "sensitized" (as workplaces like to call it) to diversity...or to become aware of "minority stress" as researchers call it. It should probably start at an early age but, as many of us know, that is not easy when many people choose to live in insular communities/certain regions. I suppose people coming from more "liberal" cities are much more open minded and less judgemental.

 

[mdbound1987]

Then the problem isn't with the adcoms, it is with education in general. People need to be "sensitized" (as workplaces like to call it) to diversity...or to become aware of "minority stress" as researchers call it. It should probably start at an early age but, as many of us know, that is not easy when many people choose to live in insular communities/certain regions. I suppose people coming from more "liberal" cities are much more open minded and less judgemental.

I agree and that's why I do not hold it against non-URMs who do not understand; however, I will educate them about URMs.

 

[teddy bear doc]

Is he the one providing anecdotal evidence, or are you, based on the two examples of you provide?

We both were; that was my point.

He put envelopes on cars. Some came back, some didn't. I knew some racist people, both educated and not. These are both anecdotes.

"anecdote - a short, free-standing tale narrating an interesting or amusing biographical incident"

My point is that not sending an envelope doesn't make someone racist. Maybe they are busy, maybe mailboxes are not frequently seen on ivy league campuses but are pretty common on the CC campus, maybe, maybe, maybe.... There are too many external variables that are not controlled for. The study, while definitely interesting, doesn't prove anything. That was all I was trying to say.

 

[45408]

- There is a POSITIVE correlation between racism and education level, which means educated people are more racist than uneducated people. (This does not mean that education makes a person racist. Rather it means that racist individuals choose to get an education).

How do you know it's not the education causing racism?

Perhaps it has to do with SES rather than race...many experiments I have read have concluded as such. An educated person might look down on someone because of their (lack of) education or SES, not because of their ethnicity. Since minorities TEND to be of a lower SES, then you could easily draw that correlation. You can make all sorts of correlations but nothing of this nature proves causation.

This thought process makes a lot more sense to me.

 

[schrizto]

Chemdude said this on http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=731163

Whoops, I thought the entire post was quoted. nvm.

 

[st2205]

Just so you know, even the black kid who is wealthy, goes to private school, and can afford kaplan sat and mcat classes goes through racism simply because they are black. Everyone outside of his/her bubble sees him/her as a black person and makes judgments based upon that.

I'm not going to hold my breath on you actually seeing the irony here.

 

[jyust]

maybe ivy leaguers are too fcking busy to be bothered. considered that?

That doesn't make sense. So they were "too fcking busy" to be bothered to return any envelopes addressed to minorities. But they weren't "too fcking busy" to mail 87% of the envelopes addressed to Whites?

Am I incorrectly assuming that people on this forum actually have brains?

 

[jyust]

The biggest beneficiary of affirmative action, historically, has been white women...

Absolutely true.
Not just AA. Includes welfare, food stamps and other benefits people grudge giving away to Blacks.

 

[jyust]

My point is that not sending an envelope doesn't make someone racist.

No one is making individual judgments here. Rather group judgments are being made. Returning 87% of envelopes addressed to White names and 0% to minority names should tell you something, shouldn't it?

Or am I incorrectly assuming that people on this forum actually have brains? Maybe I am dead wrong in that assumption. So I need to stop posting here henceforth. Goodbye.

 

[teddy bear doc]

No one is making individual judgments here. Rather group judgments are being made. Returning 87% of envelopes addressed to White names and 0% to minority names should tell you something, shouldn't it?

Or am I incorrectly assuming that people on this forum actually have brains? Maybe I am dead wrong in that assumption. So I need to stop posting here henceforth. Goodbye.

Wow. No need to get snippy now.

If you read my post, I said that the "test" or whatever you were calling it was interesting, but there were too many other uncontrolled and uncontrollable variables to conclusively state that there is a positive correlation between education and racism.

Or am I incorrectly assuming that you are literate and actually read the post?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

No one is making individual judgments here. Rather group judgments are being made. Returning 87% of envelopes addressed to White names and 0% to minority names should tell you something, shouldn't it?

Or am I incorrectly assuming that people on this forum actually have brains? Maybe I am dead wrong in that assumption. So I need to stop posting here henceforth. Goodbye.

I'm sorry you came to this site with limited information and made extreme claims. Now your reacting badly to posters apathy towards your claims. Again this experiment is a good one, but your results are as meaningless as can be. You've failed to adhere to the concepts of validity and reliability. Your N is small and honestly so much could have gone wrong in this experiment which could have skewed the data.

Honestly, most of the people on this form have a decent grasp on research methodology more or less this grasp is stronger in the psychology section then here. But regardless your experiment leaves many holes and much to be desired. You can and should only expect apathetic responses as your argument is almost non-existent.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you want to find racism look no further than the nbme, haha

anytime a "patient" in a question is African american they are in prison, abuse iv drugs, have a STD, or if they're lucky, have cancer, scd, or sarcoid 🙄

 

[JBomb]

Obviously medical schools know how to pick the URMs who will become great physicians since they clearly make it through school. So for you to imply that a white person with a 3.8 and 35 mcat will be a better physician than a URM with a 3.4 and 25 every time, you are mistaken. Adcoms take into consideration the unique experiences this URM has experienced and if they feel the potential to become a great physician is there, they will admit him/her. If by choosing URMs with lower stats resulted in them failing out or becoming horrible physicians, do you think adcoms would admit them? This would be risking their reputation as an institution and more importantly, placing patients in danger, neither of which a medical school would do. By failing out, medical schools waste tons of money due to each medical student being an investment. This is obviously not the case.

Actually you're wrong about med schools worrying about risking their reputation by granting admitting non qualified applicants just because they are URMs. They are more worried about risking their reputation as a diverse learning institution. Professor Bernard Davis of Harvard Medical School publicized in the Washington Post that in order to maintain its quota of black students it was not only admitting unqualified black applicants, but GRANTING MEDICAL DEGREES to black students who were not qualified to be doctors.

Essentially it comes down to the fact that adcoms know what is best in this regard much better than you or any other non-URM does. When you understand that and accept it, then you will focus more time on getting accepted than worrying about the 20 seats out of 170 that, in your mind, could keep you from becoming a physician. And I am not trying to say med schools should boost the number of URMs, I am simply saying that non-URMs should stop complaining about the 11% of seats that URMs take up.

I know that black people have been discriminated against, but when they are able to understand and accept it, then they will focus more time on getting along with their lives and stop worrying about positions that their race keeps them from attaining. See how ridiculous that sounds? And it is essentially the same thing you just said except with the roles swapped. I don't know if being white is going to make me a worse physician, but I know that the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 says "No person in the United States shall, on the grounds of race, color, or national origin...be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance." The idea that racism is acceptable if it is perpetrated upon white people is deplorable.

 

[LizzyM]

Actually you're wrong about med schools worrying about risking their reputation by granting admitting non qualified applicants just because they are URMs. They are more worried about risking their reputation as a diverse learning institution. Professor Bernard Davis of Harvard Medical School publicized in the Washington Post that in order to maintain its quota of black students it was not only admitting unqualified black applicants, but GRANTING MEDICAL DEGREES to black students who were not qualified to be doctors.

I'm willing to bet that I'm the only person who will post here who was alive and old enough to read when he did so.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1976/9/20/underneath-the-davis-affair-pbibmagine-this/

This is such old news that these students' children have completed medical school by now.

 

[CougarMD]

I'm willing to bet that I'm the only person who will post here who was alive and old enough to read when he did so.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1976/9/20/underneath-the-davis-affair-pbibmagine-this/

This is such old news that these students' children have completed medical school by now.

Completely off topic, but Lizzy, I quite adore your new avatar.

 

[Doodledog]

I'm willing to bet that I'm the only person who will post here who was alive and old enough to read when he did so.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1976/9/20/underneath-the-davis-affair-pbibmagine-this/

This is such old news that these students' children have completed medical school by now.

How much would you like to bet?

I was in college then.

BTW, very few years after that I was the student representative to the committee on academic promotion and at THAT time (< 5 years after the article was written) all of the URMs who graduated from MY medical school fully deserved their degree, IMHO.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Completely off topic, but Lizzy, I quite adore your new avatar.

i imagine that's the poor woman's actual expression with most of these threads on pre allo

 

[LizzyM]

How much would you like to bet?

I was in college then.

BTW, very few years after that I was the student representative to the committee on academic promotion and at THAT time (< 5 years after the article was written) all of the URMs who graduated from MY medical school fully deserved their degree, IMHO.

Tildy, I didn't see you in the house. 😉 I was in college then too... Bicentennial Year & all that.

I consider URM to be an "experience" that is taken into consideration along with other factors to determine whether one should be offered admission.

 

[Doodledog]

Tildy, I didn't see you in the house. 😉 I was in college then too... Bicentennial Year & all that.

I consider URM to be an "experience" that is taken into consideration along with other factors to determine whether one should be offered admission.

Sorry, I was just playin' with you. There are a few old folks that hang out here.

The real point is that there is some truth to the idea that in its initial phases, some URMs were admitted who were probably not well suited or qualified for med school. Med schools DID care about who graduated and mostly fixed this fairly quickly. Med schools (like undergrad ones) continue to want to admit students who will graduate.

Back to my nap time. I'm an old dog.

 

[Gifted Hands]

Actually you're wrong about med schools worrying about risking their reputation by granting admitting non qualified applicants just because they are URMs. They are more worried about risking their reputation as a diverse learning institution. Professor Bernard Davis of Harvard Medical School publicized in the Washington Post that in order to maintain its quota of black students it was not only admitting unqualified black applicants, but GRANTING MEDICAL DEGREES to black students who were not qualified to be doctors.

I haven't seen any news stories about Black Harvard med students bombing their boards and licensing exams so I'd say they are doing just fine.

I know that black people have been discriminated against, but when they are able to understand and accept it, then they will focus more time on getting along with their lives and stop worrying about positions that their race keeps them from attaining. See how ridiculous that sounds? And it is essentially the same thing you just said except with the roles swapped. I don't know if being white is going to make me a worse physician, but I know that the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 says "No person in the United States shall, on the grounds of race, color, or national origin...be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance." The idea that racism is acceptable if it is perpetrated upon white people is deplorable.

Are you trying to say that supporting URMs in medicine is preventing non-URMs from positions they can't attain??? That's ludicrous. Find a new scapegoat for why you can't get into medical school. It's getting pathetic, people

 

[Hurricane95]

Try this experiment instead. It's free, you won't even have to spend $50.

Have 10 White volunteer students. Get each of them to drop a pile of books accidentally. Do this 10 times at random places and random times on campus when people are around.

Similarly, have 10 Black students drop the books accidentally, again 10 times.

See how many people help.

My results:

Ivy League campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 48% of the time
Blacks and other minorities were helped 0% of the time.

Unknown community college (largely White) campus:
Whites received help in picking up their books 83% of the time
Blacks/minorities were helped 77% of the time.

Remember, errors cancel out since you're looking at comparative results. Use common sense, i.e. don't use very attractive Asian girls, or very tall Black athletes, scantily-dressed White girls, etc.

Added later: Do this on your campus and report the results here.

Whether or not I stop to help someone pick up their dropped books is a gender question, not a race one. I could care less what color/race they are. If a girl/lady drops her stuff, I will be a gentleman and stop to help. If a guy drops his books (unless handicapped or extreme of age, elderly or kid) he can pick them up himself.

 

[Krak]

This practice is here to stay and it actually works it diversifying medical school classes and physician communities. If it keeps a few entitled little white pricks out of med school, then it's not a big loss. I applaud it.

 

[calbears08]

The idea of racial advantage goes both ways.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/affirm20.htm

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The idea of racial advantage goes both ways.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/affirm20.htm

And even then most racial advantages for AA's go to African born or AA's who have a African family member. It's been noted that African born AA's tend to do very well as apposed to the AA's who don't have an African relative. Though that could be explained through a sociological aspect of the fact that lower income families put less emphasis on education. Either way I don't like how many articles forget to mention this point.

 

[Gifted Hands]

The idea of racial advantage goes both ways.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/04needs/affirm20.htm

very well written article. interesting. reminds me of "unpacking the knapsack of white privilege" or something like that.

 

[confus]

Long time lurker. Had to get an account to mention that SDN is very unfair and arbitrary in banning legitimate posters. There was no reason to ban the OP who made an intelligent point. Or maybe his or her point pricked the SDN administrators' racist nerves so much that they had to resort to banning the OP!

 

[Mbeas]

Long time lurker. Had to get an account to mention that SDN is very unfair and arbitrary in banning legitimate posters. There was no reason to ban the OP who made an intelligent point. Or maybe his or her point pricked the SDN administrators' racist nerves so much that they had to resort to banning the OP!

Really? You made an account to say that! You are such a kind person to defend the OP like that...👎

Yea right! Welcome back, jyust. Please don't post any more imaginative "research studies" that you can't support, and which you are only posting to spark racial debate. It's annoying!