Rad onc supervision, the epilogue

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I want to know whose agenda led them to believe I would be a part of Bridge Oncology 🤣
Not you brother, sorry I was on a tear because of some anger. And I meant people pushing similar narrative (not literally, literally), but I agree with what you're saying, I need to quit taking all this stuff so seriously, not like arguing about it on here is going to change anything, and who knows what is the best for everyone. I think everyone here is a good person and no ulterior motives. We just have different perspectives and I hope whatever happens is best for everyone.
 
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Not you brother, sorry I was on a tear because of some anger.

I hope you (and everyone) finds a way to be happy in this field.

A lot of the complaints are valid and it has taken me a long time to be less angry about all the pee.

It has helped me a lot to be honest with myself in identifying my priorities, pursue them, and also to engage the rest of medicine and the world.

Participation in all the toxic parts of RO is voluntary.
 
Well whatever happened here after my last post last night sure seems interesting...

But, as expected, CMS just posted proposed rules, including extending Virtual Direct Supervision through the end of 2025:

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There's no comment on general supervision because, of course, that has been the law of the land since January 1st, 2020.

This is why I'm concerned about all the energy going into the question of supervision - the writing on the wall is clear, we'd do better to accept reality than fight it alone.
 
Kicking the can down the road another year is a suboptimal outcome in my opinion. "Virtual direct" should have been allow to die and we should have reverted back to the pre-pandemic post-2019 HOPPS ruling. This gives the bad guys another year to try and use it as a strawman to get rid of general supervision in hospital outpatient settings instead of accepting reality and focusing on the only labor force solution that can actually work long-term: reducing the oversupply.
 
Kicking the can down the road another year is a suboptimal outcome in my opinion. "Virtual direct" should have been allow to die and we should have reverted back to the pre-pandemic post-2019 HOPPS ruling. This gives the bad guys another year to try and use it as a strawman to get rid of general supervision in hospital outpatient settings instead of accepting reality and focusing on the only labor force solution that can actually work long-term: reducing the oversupply.
Totally agree - at this point, I expected them (CMS) to land one way or another.

I guess they want 5 years of data to decide...?
 
Kicking the can down the road another year is a suboptimal outcome in my opinion. "Virtual direct" should have been allow to die and we should have reverted back to the pre-pandemic post-2019 HOPPS ruling. This gives the bad guys another year to try and use it as a strawman to get rid of general supervision in hospital outpatient settings instead of accepting reality and focusing on the only labor force solution that can actually work long-term: reducing the oversupply.
Wait, who are the bad guys and how or why is getting rid of general supv in hospital a straw man and who even mentioned or is mentioning that?
 
There have been many regulars that are actively pushing for no supervision and getting rid of requirements. Aren't you in that boat? Many typical posters here have become anti RadOnc because they are anti-ASTRO for their own personal reasons. I think many posters have stopped coming here as often and at all due to the progress of people supporting obviously damaging practices to our field and many of the posters here.
There are some views here that definitely benefit people’s lifestyle, or their ability to cover multiple places (money) which sometimes seem at odds with what is good for the field. Some might say well it is not my problem to “better” the field and prop up a job market. I get that point but disagree with it. I think we are all responsible for improving this field and we should all be doing what we can. This means treating new grads fairly and offering partnership and being transparent. It means offering a job not saying “i don’t need help” and treating 80+ people by yourself. There are some more “seasoned” people who see the young and the current situation as a way to pad their wallets (boomers, late gen x who like to eat young as a palate cleanser). Part of the reason why we got here is this way of thinking, basically I got mine and who the F cares about anything else. You can do better. Our field depends on it!!!
 
There are some views here that definitely benefit people’s lifestyle, or their ability to cover multiple places (money) which sometimes seem at odds with what is good for the field. Some might say well it is not my problem to “better” the field and prop up a job market. I get that point but disagree with it. I think we are all responsible for improving this field and we should all be doing what we can. This means treating new grads fairly and offering partnership and being transparent. It means offering a job not saying “i don’t need help” and treating 80+ people by yourself. There are some more “seasoned” people who see the young and the current situation as a way to pad their wallets (boomers, late gen x who like to eat young as a palate cleanser). Part of the reason why we got here is this way of thinking, basically I got mine and who the F cares about anything else. You can do better. Our field depends on it!!!
This has been building up for me for a long time, and I may be gone from this forum to get away from the negativity aspect in my life (Thanks Simul, curious who was sending his stuff to other people). People on this forum used to go on Twitter and be mean to medical students, sometimes viciously mean. I don't know what's best for everyone, but hope everyone gets what makes them happy, sorry for arguing. Sorry for upsetting anyone, I don't know what everyone's motives are, and I don't care at this point. I hope the best thing happens for everyone, and I think you're all good people. Hope for the best for everyone.

Throw in that I have had multiple reports and warnings of Doxxing and the potential for me getting Doxxed both on and off of this site now. Not worth it.
 
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"Big Rad Onc" thought leader who wants direct supervision any time beam is on to fix job market for unnecessary number of trainees = bad guy
Private practice owner who wants virtual direct forever to maximize profits with minimal staffing and rarely come in = bad guy
Private equity who wants to employ a couple of doctors to cover a dozen rural sites at a time = bad guy

There are different kinds of bad guys.

Rad onc who wants to use common sense and be on site for all clinic visits, simulations, and complicated treatments but not have to hire a locums to babysit routine prostate and breast treatments to go the dentist or god forbid take a long weekend in a hard-to-recruit rural position where vacation coverage is near impossible to line up = not a bad guy.

The 2020 rule change, as it stood, was adequate. Instead the virtual direct nonsense caused this stupid spat between the bad players on the big academic/ASTRO side and the unscrupulous for-profit rad onc side with the majority of us non-bad guys left somewhere in the middle in limbo waiting to see if we're going to spend Christmas with our abusive father or alcoholic mother.
 
"Big Rad Onc" thought leader who wants direct supervision any time beam is on to fix job market for unnecessary number of trainees = bad guy
Private practice owner who wants virtual direct forever to maximize profits with minimal staffing and rarely come in = bad guy
Private equity who wants to employ a couple of doctors to cover a dozen rural sites at a time = bad guy

There are different kinds of bad guys.
I think this is the core of it - though would zoom out even further and start sorting the "good guy/bad guy" camps on the "oversupply" question itself.

There are still many RadOncs who think oversupply is a myth, and I can think of a few people I know in real life who think oversupply isn't real and direct supervision is needed for safety.

While I disagree with that camp, it's hard for me to say they're "bad" for believing those things.

My own stance on supervision comes down to unintended consequences.

In the "permanent virtual direct exploitation scenario", a PE firm can't just snap their fingers and drop linacs in new areas and create this "one RadOnc/10 linac nightmare" situation.

There are other significant hurdles to that exploitation scenario, namely, acquiring capital, staying solvent, CON laws, additional staff shortages, etc etc.

In the "return to direct supervision everywhere exploitation scenario", all it takes is one disgruntled employee/colleague to fly off the handle and start pointing fingers, and a whistleblower case can be built.

It's not a short road to a successful whistleblower case conviction/settlement, of course - but all it takes is one person with an axe to grind to get things in motion.

In my neck of the woods, there are no PE owned/affiliated hospitals or practices. I know of a US Oncology site a few hours from here, but it's old at this point.

We don't even have enough mid-levels for their regular roles, let alone anyone tossing around an "Advanced RTT" idea or whatnot.

What I do have is a lot of people driving 45-60 minutes each way to get to me. There's no way I could get a CON approved to build a new linac in this state and, even if I did, the sparse population means I would struggle to break even.

But, maybe there's a future where a refurbished linac can be installed in one of the points where it would enhance access to care. In this hopeful future, I could break even by virtually supervising it much of the week.

Would oddball entities like Bridge be a threat? Sure. But so would MD Anderson, Sloan, Mayo, etc and their expanding "networks".

We can't regulate ourselves out of oversupply. You won't fix distribution problems by producing so many RadOncs you force them to go to rural areas they don't want to be.

The truth is that problems like maldistribution will likely NEVER be fixed. Oversupply won't be fixed. General/virtual supervision will stay.

I see more value in trying to adapt the specialty into the most likely future, not go totally rogue asking for unique supervision rules in some noble but misguided desire to reduce the harm of oversupply.

For us, the doctors with the liability, more regulations almost always means increased risk of lost malpractice cases or whistleblower charges. But - that's just my opinion, and maybe I'll be proven wrong someday.
 
People are clearly supporting bad things for RadOnc because they have some kind of business venture going on, whether it is BO or whatever else, who is to say, but doing the right thing for the field is important to me and it is draining to come here as of the last year.

In my opinion there is no position on the supervision topic that is "clearly bad". Of course people are biased and have conflicts, but Im not sure why you don't think about the COI of ASTRO leadership. I know for a fact that at least one of them is just a straight up liar; uses virtual technology to do a lot of his job even to this day.

I enjoy engaging anonymous people on SDN more than I ever enjoyed engaging leaders of ASTRO (or ACRO, or PTCOG-NA, or my former academic institution with rare exceptions).

If something drains you, don't do it. If something is draining you primarily because of disagreements of opinion, it might help you to be more open minded.

A lot of people in this field love to make false dichotomies and label people as "bad" or "good" based on their opinions. It is not a good thing. It is sad that the best conversation in this field requires anonymity.

Don't be one of those people.
 
In my opinion there is no position on the supervision topic that is "clearly bad". Of course people are biased and have conflicts, but Im not sure why you don't think about the COI of ASTRO leadership. I know for a fact that at least one of them is just a straight up liar; uses virtual technology to do a lot of his job even to this day.

I enjoy engaging anonymous people on SDN more than I ever enjoyed engaging leaders of ASTRO (or ACRO, or PTCOG-NA, or my former academic institution with rare exceptions).

If something drains you, don't do it. If something is draining you primarily because of disagreements of opinion, it might help you to be more open minded.

A lot of people in this field love to make false dichotomies and label people as "bad" or "good" based on their opinions. It is not a good thing. It is sad that the best conversation in this field requires anonymity.

Don't be one of those people.
People think I'm "bad" for supporting virtual. But I would never "virtually" supervise treatment while I'm actually on vacation. How can anyone actually follow the letter of the law and be "immediately available via A/V videoconferencing app" in that scenario if they are in Thailand, or Italy or something.

Yet I have heard that assumption quite a bit. When I'm actually on vacation I don't want to be supervising anything directly or virtually. And medicolegally how will it stand in up court when you are in a different country or doing some other vacation thing while still implying to CMS you were "immediately available" to provide assistance virtually?

The vast majority of my practice is still direct by default of being in clinic to see patients, at the end of the day.

But like you said earlier, this is a done deal and certain folks need to stop litigating the past and focus on how we can make this effective and safe for patients going forward in the future. I am shockingly impressed with the working group statement from ASTRO in that regard from 7/2/24 (and it makes you wonder why ASTRO shifted so much between that letter from Jeff M in February to now).
 
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but Im not sure why you don't think about the COI of ASTRO leadership. I know for a fact that at least one of them is just a straight up liar; uses virtual technology to do a lot of his job even to this day.

Please tell me it's Michalski (author of the pearl-clutching ASTRO letter).
 
People think I'm "bad" for supporting virtual. But I would never "virtually" supervise treatment while I'm actually on vacation. How can anyone actually follow the letter of the law and be "immediately available via A/V videoconferencing app" in that scenario if they are in Thailand, or Italy or something.

It's also illegal to bill 77014 while out of the country. I.e., you can't check images anyway if you're in Thailand.
 
People think I'm "bad" for supporting virtual. But I would never "virtually" supervise treatment while I'm actually on vacation. How can anyone actually follow the letter of the law and be "immediately available via A/V videoconferencing app" in that scenario if they are in Thailand, or Italy or something.

Separate from all of this, I have a very strong opinion that people need to be really off when they are off, and that physicians should be forced to take regular vacations.

But like, again, if someone wants to hustle, what kind of American would I be if I told them not to?

It's also illegal to bill 77014 while out of the country. I.e., you can't check images anyway if you're in Thailand.

Is this actually true? I have to be honest that I was taught soooo much misinformation that seems to all have been rooted in a misunderstanding of what happened to Todd Scarborough. Its very strange and I just have no idea what is true or not true.

Where is Jason Beckta, I bet he has some random court transcript that has the answer.
 
Is this actually true? I have to be honest that I was taught soooo much misinformation that seems to all have been rooted in a misunderstanding of what happened to Todd Scarborough. Its very strange and I just have no idea what is true or not true.
Yes, it's a diagnostic code, and CMS regulations prohibit reading images outside of the country.

Medicare law (i.e., Section 1862(a)(4) of the Social Security Act (“the Act”)) prohibits payment for items and services furnished outside the United States except for certain limited services (see Section 1814(f) of the Act).

Discussion here: Living Internationally and Working Remotely for US Company

People have tried to get around this with negative consequences...

 
Is this actually true? I have to be honest that I was taught soooo much misinformation that seems to all have been rooted in a misunderstanding of what happened to Todd Scarborough.

Yes, it's a diagnostic code, and CMS regulations prohibit reading images outside of the country.
What happened to Scarborough and IGRT specifically had nothing to do with being in/out of country. It did have to do with supervision though. IGRT via kV Xray had a personal supervision level meaning it required being present at the machine, not just in office. CMS changed it to in office supervision in 2009. Later CMS eliminated the code (77421) altogether. This is the only rad onc code that ever required personal supervision (yes, even given SBRT or SRS) according to the MPFS. I will say as far as I can recall when personal supervision was eliminated for 77421, ASTRO did not complain, patient care was still given adequately, the job market survived, and “bad guys” didn’t take over by abusing the lesser direct supervision requirements. Some of you guys should watch the Bogart movie “Black Legion.”
 
"Big Rad Onc" thought leader who wants direct supervision any time beam is on to fix job market for unnecessary number of trainees = bad guy
Private practice owner who wants virtual direct forever to maximize profits with minimal staffing and rarely come in = bad guy
Private equity who wants to employ a couple of doctors to cover a dozen rural sites at a time = bad guy

There are different kinds of bad guys.
"Big Rad Onc" thought leader who wants direct supervision any time beam is on to fix job market for unnecessary number of trainees = bad guy
This of course is real... or at least, I think most here find a "ring of truth" in this observation. Leave it to others to determine if this is "bad" or not.

Private practice owner who wants virtual direct forever to maximize profits with minimal staffing and rarely come in = bad guy
OK, let's logically think about this...
1) Maximizing profits is... good! You can go out of practice if you don't maximize profits. Not maximizing profits is not good for healthcare, one could argue, even at big hospitals (much less in private practice).
2) Minimal staffing is... good! What even is "maximal" staffing in the alternative? In private practice you want the minimum amount of staff to deliver good care. I think this is probably even true in hospitals. It sounds like a bad connotation phrase, but in reality it can mean things that are not bad and are just fiscally reasonable.
3) "Rarely come in..."
Medicare IMRT LCD L36711 has been in existence since 2016 for TX, CO, NM, OK, AR, LA, MS, DC, NJ, PA, MD, and DE. It says doctors must provide "direct supervision of radiation treatment delivery of all patients being treated at least twice during each calendar week of therapy." So two days a week is a lot more rare than 5 days a week, but this LCD has been around for 8 years now and CMS thinks it's safe. And I don't see any abuse in the meantime (in those states). But would 2 days a week be abuse? It'd be legal.

Private equity who wants to employ a couple of doctors to cover a dozen rural sites at a time = bad guy
AFAIK this does not exist, but certainly may one day although I think the ratio of doctors to centers will be greater than 1 to 6 as you allude to here. And just like every action has an equal and opposite reaction, I can see how this could improve care for some patients. (I have no interest in PE in this arena, nor am I planning ever to have any.)
 
Private practice owner who wants virtual direct forever to maximize profits with minimal staffing and rarely come in = bad guy
OK, let's logically think about this...
1) Maximizing profits is... good! You can go out of practice if you don't maximize profits. Not maximizing profits is not good for healthcare, one could argue, even at big hospitals (much less in private practice).
2) Minimal staffing is... good! What even is "maximal" staffing in the alternative? In private practice you want the minimum amount of staff to deliver good care. I think this is probably even true in hospitals. It sounds like a bad connotation phrase, but in reality it can mean things that are not bad and are just fiscally reasonable.
3) "Rarely come in..."
Medicare IMRT LCD L36711 has been in existence since 2016 for TX, CO, NM, OK, AR, LA, MS, DC, NJ, PA, MD, and DE. It says doctors must provide "direct supervision of radiation treatment delivery of all patients being treated at least twice during each calendar week of therapy." So two days a week is a lot more rare than 5 days a week, but this LCD has been around for 8 years now and CMS thinks it's safe. And I don't see any abuse in the meantime (in those states). But would 2 days a week be abuse? It'd be legal.
Good...bad...those are tough words and morality is the toughest part of philosophy.

But, this ish is not concordant with what I consider to be "human" values in oncology. Human values emphasize the importance of intimacy and personal expertise.

I am not going to congratulate anyone who imagines themselves an innovator by finding ways to provide care with less intimacy and a lower investment in personal expertise. Anyone can do this...but should they?

Brave new world BS. The winners are losers IMO. We should all be aiming for a future where this guy still exists (but we are travelling multiples of the SOL).

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Private equity who wants to employ a couple of doctors to cover a dozen rural sites at a time = bad guy
AFAIK this does not exist, but certainly may one day although I think the ratio of doctors to centers will be greater than 1 to 6 as you allude to here. And just like every action has an equal and opposite reaction, I can see how this could improve care for some patients. (I have no interest in PE in this arena, nor am I planning ever to have any.)
PE can try but that's honestly a terrible way to run a practice or generate referrals and in any type of environment with more than one center to refer to, that type of practice will likely struggle.
 
Good...bad...those are tough words and morality is the toughest part of philosophy.

But, this ish is not concordant with what I consider to be "human" values in oncology. Human values emphasize the importance of intimacy and personal expertise.

I am not going to congratulate anyone who imagines themselves an innovator by finding ways to provide care with less intimacy and a lower investment in personal expertise. Anyone can do this...but should they?

Brave new world BS. The winners are losers IMO. We should all be aiming for a future where this guy still exists (but we are travelling multiples of the SOL).

View attachment 389056
This doctor was pretty great too 🙂

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All you guys stressing and kvetching over Bridge Oncology.

A little weird.

It's like being concerned about terrorism because the terrorists use too much oil in their hummus.

I think Bridge just puts a granular face to a hypothetical but very real possibility that has potentially seismic impacts on the field. We thought it could happen (virtual supervision, 1 doc covering multiple/many centers at once, a middle man takes a cut, and thus further hampering job market and compromising (“there are no solutions, only trade offs”) patient care.

They are just the face and something concrete to discuss. A (ugh, Zeitman disaster) Canary in a Coal Mine if you will.

I think it’s fear of slippery slope - a hospital system admin will think rather than paying a higher rate for an in person doc they can start skimping and pay a remote-ish doc.
 
I think Bridge just puts a granular face to a hypothetical but very real possibility that has potentially seismic impacts on the field. We thought it could happen (virtual supervision, 1 doc covering multiple/many centers at once, a middle man takes a cut, and thus further hampering job market and compromising (“there are no solutions, only trade offs”) patient care.

They are just the face and something concrete to discuss. A (ugh, Zeitman disaster) Canary in a Coal Mine if you will.

I think it’s fear of slippery slope - a hospital system admin will think rather than paying a higher rate for an in person doc they can start skimping and pay a remote-ish doc.
Let me tell a true story.

I took over a sleepy southern hospital based practice in 2013. The doctor who had been there previously had been there for nearly thirty years. The last 10 or so years he was there he would fly his plane in from Florida Sunday night and do all his follow-ups and consults and clinic work on Monday. Then fly back that night. He also ran a clinic in Florida. The hospital was fine with it and they treated about 20 a day at the small southern hospital.

How does this story make everyone feel.

(PS. The hospital legally had the med oncs next door be the covering docs when the rad onc was gone 4 days a week.)
 
Let me tell a true story.

I took over a sleepy southern hospital based practice in 2013. The doctor who had been there previously had been there for nearly thirty years. The last 10 or so years he was there he would fly his plane in from Florida Sunday night and do all his follow-ups and consults and clinic work on Monday. Then fly back that night. He also ran a clinic in Florida. The hospital was fine with it and they treated about 20 a day at the small southern hospital.

How does this story make everyone feel.

(PS. The hospital legally had the med oncs next door be the covering docs when the rad onc was gone 4 days a week.)
Sounds like you got screwed if you were working more than 1 day per week
 
Sounds like you got screwed if you were working more than 1 day per week
Nah. I just chose to work more, do more IMRT (which is more work generally than non IMRT), start an SBRT and SRS and radiopharm program, become the CoC laison, and inure myself to the referring docs. I had a choice; I wish that for all humans, even rad oncs.

America, what a country.
 
I’m going to take a wild guess he was billing and collecting over 1M pro on his own with 1 day a week of what can only be complete garbage patient care.

I hope you’re not defending that.
Sure I’ll defend it. It wasn’t complete garbage for sure. His patients were fine, the world spun, etc, and while not my cup of tea service wise I was amazed he could do what he did in a day. Would you want one day a week of a doctor who does all IMRT and checks IGRT daily (remotely), or a guy who does a lot of 3D and not much IGRT. But is in clinic all the time. These are somewhat silly discussions and what if isms imho.
 
Hahahahahaha I dont want to admit what I thought BO meant until I saw this post.

I’m fascinated at how each big arena of medicine has its own lingo that is borderline incomprehensible to everyone else. I read a scribbled out ophtho note today and had no ****ing idea what was going on. (I’m assuming “no D” doesn’t mean no diarrhea.)

BO? I mean, Barack Obama, body odor, what?
 
Let me tell a true story.

I took over a sleepy southern hospital based practice in 2013. The doctor who had been there previously had been there for nearly thirty years. The last 10 or so years he was there he would fly his plane in from Florida Sunday night and do all his follow-ups and consults and clinic work on Monday. Then fly back that night. He also ran a clinic in Florida. The hospital was fine with it and they treated about 20 a day at the small southern hospital.

How does this story make everyone feel.

(PS. The hospital legally had the med oncs next door be the covering docs when the rad onc was gone 4 days a week.)

It’s bad, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I used to work in the south for a time (well, not even a year) and let me tell ya - the type of **** that passes for “adequate patient care” in the south is just depressingly bad. This is far from the most heinously stupid care I encountered in the south (incompetent PCPs scoping and perfing bowel, missing cancers, and otherwise ****ing up with some regularity was up there).
 
Sure I’ll defend it. It wasn’t complete garbage for sure. His patients were fine, the world spun, etc, and while not my cup of tea service wise I was amazed he could do what he did in a day. Would you want one day a week of a doctor who does all IMRT and checks IGRT daily (remotely), or a guy who does a lot of 3D and not much IGRT. But is in clinic all the time. These are somewhat silly discussions and what if isms imho.
I am familiar with a doctor (I use this term loosely, defined as simply having a medical license) who was on site 2 days a week treating about 30-40 at a time and seeing 15 consults in those 2 days. 5 minute consults. Dosi did contours, briefly approved and modified by MD, taking a month or more. No follow-up. Hypofractionate everything to make it possible. 10 Gy x 3 to spine not approved for SBRT? No problem, just treat same volume 3D and reduce dose to 24 or something for the feels. Zero regard for effect on late toxicity.

I'm sorry but no. I saw the carnage this caused to patients and staff.

3 days a week treating 20 in a rural facility? Fine (some here disagree with that!). My example above or yours? Hard no.

Of course, we're only talking about medicare patients here. If you want to only take cash and commercial insurance then good luck selling this service on the open market.
 
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It’s bad, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I used to work in the south for a time (well, not even a year) and let me tell ya - the type of **** that passes for “adequate patient care” in the south is just depressingly bad. This is far from the most heinously stupid care I encountered in the south (incompetent PCPs scoping and perfing bowel, missing cancers, and otherwise ****ing up with some regularity was up there).
There are some southern states I would not let anyone in my family get treated in. Like, the entire state. Until you've seen it with your own eyes, you can't believe it. Most trained in state, and have never left the state and are literally clueless. There is one state in particular I'm thinking of and I'm betting you know the one.
 
I've always felt like, in terms of poetry, Invictus was peak RadOnc:

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.


I would change "unafraid" with "trapped till retirement" though.
No. I dare y’all to find verse that is more Peak Rad Onc than this:

Ozymandias​

BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
 
It’s bad, but it doesn’t surprise me at all.

I used to work in the south for a time (well, not even a year) and let me tell ya - the type of **** that passes for “adequate patient care” in the south is just depressingly bad. This is far from the most heinously stupid care I encountered in the south (incompetent PCPs scoping and perfing bowel, missing cancers, and otherwise ****ing up with some regularity was up there).
There are some southern states I would not let anyone in my family get treated in. Like, the entire state. Until you've seen it with your own eyes, you can't believe it. Most trained in state, and have never left the state and are literally clueless. There is one state in particular I'm thinking of and I'm betting you know the one.
For the med students and residents -

I see this all the time, too. It's not hyperbole. Setting expectations higher will only lead to sadness.

And, sadly, it appears to be getting worse.

On the upside, half my day is spent being a PCP, so I have my backup career set should we ever cure cancer or the supervision rules cause mass unemployment.
 
No. I dare y’all to find verse that is more Peak Rad Onc than this:

Ozymandias​

BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Alright that is definitely the winner
 
There are some southern states I would not let anyone in my family get treated in. Like, the entire state. Until you've seen it with your own eyes, you can't believe it. Most trained in state, and have never left the state and are literally clueless. There is one state in particular I'm thinking of and I'm betting you know the one.

It was Alabama in my case, but almost every state that touches it is just as bad IMO.
 
It was Alabama in my case, but almost every state that touches it is just as bad IMO.


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Close but sadly it gets worse.

Advice: You don’t want a doctor that hasn’t left the state in 10 years. There’s some seriously weird inbreeding stuff going on. Only hiring people from the state who trained in the state, etc. The reason quietly stated as their patients don’t trust foreigners. Maryland might as well be Myanmar. Bonus points if you were in a frat and played football at the state university.
 
I think Bridge just puts a granular face to a hypothetical but very real possibility that has potentially seismic impacts on the field. We thought it could happen (virtual supervision, 1 doc covering multiple/many centers at once, a middle man takes a cut, and thus further hampering job market and compromising (“there are no solutions, only trade offs”) patient care.

They are just the face and something concrete to discuss. A (ugh, Zeitman disaster) Canary in a Coal Mine if you will.

I think it’s fear of slippery slope - a hospital system admin will think rather than paying a higher rate for an in person doc they can start skimping and pay a remote-ish doc.
As I’ve mentioned before on this forum, I think this fear is dramatically overstated. Every community hospital wants you to “be a part of the community.” There are plenty of centers which I am aware of currently averaging 10-12 patients on treatment in which patients likely could receive good care with a doc on site a day or two a week seeing 10 OTVs, 2 consults, and a couple follow ups. However, hospitals want to control physicians whether that means by virtue of requiring “clinical work hours” or by demanding they live within the community or however else they can do so. While hospitals may nickel and dime when it comes to staffing or new equipment etc, in my experience they aren’t looking to compromise on physician time or presence to save a few bucks. They want you around and “part of the community.” Additionally, hospitals are extremely slow to adapt change. The supervision rules have been in place since 2020. How many hospitals have switched to general supervision with minimal physician presence? 4.5+ years later little has changed.
 
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No. I dare y’all to find verse that is more Peak Rad Onc than this:

Ozymandias​

BY PERCY BYSSHE SHELLEY

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Alright that is definitely the winner
Ah, quoting Shelley and "Ozymandias" now are we. How original. *wink*

Shelley is for everyone, though. Have ye fun.


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Close but sadly it gets worse.

Advice: You don’t want a doctor that hasn’t left the state in 10 years. There’s some seriously weird inbreeding stuff going on. Only hiring people from the state who trained in the state, etc. The reason quietly stated as their patients don’t trust foreigners. Maryland might as well be Myanmar. Bonus points if you were in a frat and played football at the state university.

Oh totally agree with all of this. I didn’t train in the south and thus was seen as an “outsider” for the entire time I was there. Even though I was a demonstrably better physician than almost everyone I encountered. Btw some of the patients (the ones with their heads screwed on straight-er) actually want doctors trained elsewhere because they know the locals totally suck.

Oh, and BTW: several of the senior docs in my practice were members of the local KKK chapter. No joke. At least one doc was drinking and doing drugs while seeing patients, and the state board raided his office shortly after I left. One doc was living out of his office (had a wife and kids in a neighboring state but was working here?) and apparently had used condoms under his desk all the time. Another had been groping patients and had a “gentleman’s agreement” with the practice to see his patients virtually through a robotic camera, because he was one of the biggest billers in the practice and we just can’t let him go, can we? Bless his heart (I hope to never hear that phrase again lol). I seriously wish I was joking about all this. It was a total all American ****show. The practice imploded not long after I left, and I moved back to the Midwest where I belong.
 
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some of the patients (the ones with their heads screwed on straight-er) actually want doctors trained elsewhere because they know the locals totally suck.

Exactly my experience. I remember the first time I was asked "Are you from <insert that state>?" I reluctantly said no thinking well this patient is going elsewhere, and to my surprise they were ecstatic I was from and trained on the coast. Which is hilarious given that the practices make a big deal (understatement) of only hiring locals since they think they will be celebrities in the community. With regards to the other things you mention, yes I saw similar. Drinking, drugs, affairs, theft, overt malpractice/negligence, etc. The system is set up to let them get away with bad behavior.

They ignore guidelines because they know better. Continuing medical education is a joke. It's all about image and a good-old-boy country club/frat mentality.

Midwest FTW.
 
At least one doc was drinking and doing drugs while seeing patients, and the state board raided his office shortly after I left. One doc was living out of his office (had a wife and kids in a neighboring state but was working here?) and apparently had used condoms under his desk all the time. Another had been groping patients and had a “gentleman’s agreement” with the practice to see his patients virtually through a robotic camera, because he was one of the biggest billers in the practice and we just can’t let him go, can we? Bless his heart (I hope to never hear that phrase again lol). I seriously wish I was joking about all this. It was a total all American ****show.
That's pretty benign compared to the stuff I've seen out West LOL
 
O
This has been building up for me for a long time, and I may be gone from this forum to get away from the negativity aspect in my life (Thanks Simul, curious who was sending his stuff to other people). People on this forum used to go on Twitter and be mean to medical students, sometimes viciously mean. People are clearly supporting bad things for RadOnc because they have some kind of business venture going on, whether it is BO or whatever else, who is to say, but doing the right thing for the field is important to me and it is draining to come here as of the last year.

Throw in that I have had multiple reports and warnings of Doxxing and the potential for me getting Doxxed both on and off of this site now. Not worth it.

Edit- I think it was my fault for having expectations of people. Remember to curb your expectations.
I am one of the bad guys here, but am just an employed community doc, with no ulterior financial interests. I have been posting about price gouging academic systems, the risks of hypofrac, consolidation and supervision changes since well before 2018 on these forums. I don’t see PE or private practice for that matter playing much of a role in this field in the foreseeable future.

My “negativity” is fueled by the remaining “bad guy”, the cadre of exploitative actors in Astro/big academic medicine with incredibly selfish interests. Astro really does act against the interests of its membership. Again, for the millionth time, why did we expand residencies more than any other specialty when facing these risks? A: the “stewards” of this field are greedier/more self interested than their counterparts in the rest of medicine. It always comes back to that.
 
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