Rad Onc Twitter

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This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

50 percent of rad oncs making less than 300k?


Sorry but this is a worse statement than KO.
 
Neuronix said:
I don't understand how anyone can declare that things are improving based on things so far. We have not cut spots, the spots that do not fill in SOAP are largely filled outside of SOAP, and the changes to residency standards will lead to minimal if any contraction. Is there some big announcement pending from ASTRO here?
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What are you talking about?

The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades.

1648226339242.png
 
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jondunn said:


This is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

50 percent of rad oncs making less than 300k?


Sorry but this is a worse statement than KO.
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the adjective "full-time" wasn't included. We seem to be a specialty where one can casually participate ad nauseum. Though I do know folks starting out FT under 3. This is rare, however, so I'd agree, that it's the vast minority of FT radoncs making <3.
 
Ray D. Ayshun said:
the adjective "full-time" wasn't included. We seem to be a specialty where one can casually participate ad nauseum. Though I do know folks starting out FT under 3. This is rare, however, so I'd agree, that it's the vast minority of FT radoncs making <3.
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I think the tweet is a tweak and meant more as lowerbound reasonable. And to make jondunn angry (which, let’s face it, is fun). All the rad oncs at evicore except the top 2 make less than 300 a year. I could cast a particular geofence along a stretch of I-75 in the south where 3 of 8 of the working rad oncs are working part time and making sub 300.
 
medgator said:
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I don't understand how a scientist like KO, whose job is to think critically, simply takes a survey from graduating residents as overwhelmingly convincing evidence that we have a strong job market. Residents are indentured servants. They've worked their assess off for a decade or more taking on debt and then getting paid peanuts. The bar for satisfaction is set low. It's like saying "we surveyed 200 former prisoners just released to halfway houses about the quality of their accommodations. 30% were thrilled, 60% were satisfied, and 10% preferred firmer mattresses."

If your goal is to work in New Orleans, but your expectation is that you'll need to take a job in Shreveport, then you may be "satisfied" with a job in Alexandria. If your expectation is to work in Alexandria, but instead you get a job making 300-350k in NOLA treating indigent patients with no opportunity to make more, you may similarly be "satisfied." Neither of these situations reflect a strong job market.

I don't know about you guys, but after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, post baccs, PhD's, residencies, I'd prefer it if I didn't get a job that was "just ok."
 
RealSimulD said:
Why? Data is the data
Love you saying that with zero data.
Uninformed, my friend.
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if you machinate and incorrectly make enough assumptions to come up with an interpretion of the data to come up with a ridiculous statement, then the interpretation is incorrect

I assume I don't need to hold your hand through why it is a ridiculous conclusion.


other than Dr. S, literally no one believes that half make less than 300k.

I know there is no way you believe this, especially given all of the recent discussion regarding median.

but even if you want to totally ignore MGMA or any other data. Each one of us probably knows the salary of 5-10 of our rad onc friends, from new grads to senior people.

how many of us know people that make less than 300? Other than one person I know who works in a partnership where they make less than 300k as an associate but once they are partner will make 800-1 mill, I know no one else making less than 300.

it doesn't pass the smell test and to argue otherwise is asinine.
 
jondunn said:
if you machinate and incorrectly make enough assumptions to come up with an interpretion of the data to come up with a ridiculous statement, then the interpretation is incorrect

I assume I don't need to hold your hand through why it is a ridiculous conclusion.


other than Dr. S, literally no one believes that half make less than 300k.

I know there is no way you believe this, especially given all of the recent discussion regarding median.

but even if you want to totally ignore MGMA or any other data. Each one of us probably knows the salary of 5-10 of our rad onc friends, from new grads to senior people.

how many of us know people that make less than 300? Other than one person I know who works in a partnership where they make less than 300k as an associate but once they are partner will make 800-1 mill, I know no one else making less than 300.

it doesn't pass the smell test and to argue otherwise is asinine.
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How many retired locums/part timers/VA docs/evilcore lackeys do you know?
 
jondunn said:
if you machinate and incorrectly make enough assumptions to come up with an interpretion of the data to come up with a ridiculous statement, then the interpretation is incorrect

I assume I don't need to hold your hand through why it is a ridiculous conclusion.


other than Dr. S, literally no one believes that half make less than 300k.

I know there is no way you believe this, especially given all of the recent discussion regarding median.

but even if you want to totally ignore MGMA or any other data. Each one of us probably knows the salary of 5-10 of our rad onc friends, from new grads to senior people.

how many of us know people that make less than 300? Other than one person I know who works in a partnership where they make less than 300k as an associate but once they are partner will make 800-1 mill, I know no one else making less than 300.

it doesn't pass the smell test and to argue otherwise is asinine.
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If there is significant under employment, part time workers, people who do mostly locums, many satellite jobs that pay garbage, it is certainly possible.

But you like your best friend gator are so certain about everything and have little interest in delving deeper - something that Todd actually tries to do, not just - “I don’t like what I’m hearing it doesn’t fit my worldview so I’m going to put my fingers in my ears and say NAH NAH NAH”.

Your lack of curiosity, interest in asking deeper questions and disinterest in data and quantification make it really challenging for people that do like to search for truth. The guy at the Allegheny of Cleveland also acts this way - is more interested in being right than in finding truth. It’s too bad.

And the constant antagonism. Like one week within joining the forum you came at me (wrongly, that I seek likes). Why so unpleasant? Did I or others hurt you?
 
RealSimulD said:
If there is significant under employment, part time workers, people who do mostly locums, many satellite jobs that pay garbage, it is certainly possible.

But you like your best friend gator are so certain about everything and have little interest in delving deeper - something that Todd actually tries to do, not just - “I don’t like what I’m hearing it doesn’t fit my worldview so I’m going to put my fingers in my ears and say NAH NAH NAH”.

Your lack of curiosity, interest in asking deeper questions and disinterest in data and quantification make it really challenging for people that do like to search for truth. The guy at the Allegheny of Cleveland also acts this way - is more interested in being right than in finding truth. It’s too bad.

And the constant antagonism. Like one week within joining the forum you came at me (wrongly, that I seek likes). Why so unpleasant? Did I or others hurt you?
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Dude. do you understand the meaning of half?

Like stop trying to pretend.

‘Your lack of curiosity, interest in asking deeper questions and disinterest in data and quantification make it really challenging for people that do like to search for truth.’


Read any of my posts. I very much am interested in this. I got in trouble here for supporting Chirag’s and Astro’s efforts to find more good data. I also asked and tried to start a discussion here regarding figuring out what the magical number is for jobs. I like this stuff

You saying otherwise just shows me what an unserious person you are.

And yeah I will call out BS when I see it. I like
Todd - but any tweetorial that ends with half make less than 300k is so silly it makes me cry for the future of humanity
 
RSAOaky said:
I don't understand how a scientist like KO, whose job is to think critically, simply takes a survey from graduating residents as overwhelmingly convincing evidence that we have a strong job market. Residents are indentured servants. They've worked their assess off for a decade or more taking on debt and then getting paid peanuts. The bar for satisfaction is set low. It's like saying "we surveyed 200 former prisoners just released to halfway houses about the quality of their accommodations. 30% were thrilled, 60% were satisfied, and 10% preferred firmer mattresses."

If your goal is to work in New Orleans, but your expectation is that you'll need to take a job in Shreveport, then you may be "satisfied" with a job in Alexandria. If your expectation is to work in Alexandria, but instead you get a job making 300-350k in NOLA treating indigent patients with no opportunity to make more, you may similarly be "satisfied." Neither of these situations reflect a strong job market.

I don't know about you guys, but after 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of med school, post baccs, PhD's, residencies, I'd prefer it if I didn't get a job that was "just ok."
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ugh KO drives me BANANAS. I'm sure he's also telling millennials we can't afford houses because iTs ThE AvoCADo TOasT.
 
Simul is just doing this for either the lulz or just to be antagonstic.

scroll back a few weeks and see the discussion about the median salary

simul himself doesnt believe this BS.

so instead of saying what he knows to be true - 'hmm something does not seem right here, maybe we should look at the methods of analysis' he is doing this stuff

gotta love the guy.
 
jondunn said:
Dude. do you understand the meaning of half?

Like stop trying to pretend.

‘Your lack of curiosity, interest in asking deeper questions and disinterest in data and quantification make it really challenging for people that do like to search for truth.’


Read any of my posts. I very much am interested in this. I got in trouble here for supporting Chirag’s and Astro’s efforts to find more good data. I also asked and tried to start a discussion here regarding figuring out what the magical number is for jobs. I like this stuff

You saying otherwise just shows me what an unserious person you are.

And yeah I will call out BS when I see it. I like
Todd - but any tweetorial that ends with half make less than 300k is so silly it makes me cry for the future of humanity
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Is there anything less serious than saying - I say it is so, I’ll ignore any data you present because I can’t accept it? You do the deep dive and I’ll read it.
jondunn said:
Simul is just doing this for either the lulz or just to be antagonstic.

scroll back a few weeks and see the discussion about the median salary

simul himself doesnt believe this BS.

so instead of saying what he knows to be true - 'hmm something does not seem right here, maybe we should look at the methods of analysis' he is doing this stuff

gotta love the guy.
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I think it’s unlikely, but I would not say it’s impossible.
 
If I did a 'deep dive of data' with a paragraph of text, came up with a conclusion that gravity was not real, and asked you to rebut me - that would make me the idiot, not you

but we can move on, as I don't think anyone believes this is true, so there's no point arguing it when there isn't really anyone else on the other side of the issue.
 
RealSimulD said:
Is there anything less serious than saying - I say it is so, I’ll ignore any data you present because I can’t accept it? You do the deep dive and I’ll read it.

I think it’s unlikely, but I would not say it’s impossible.
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Anytime something moves from impossible to unlikely, we gotta pay attention!
 
jondunn said:
If I did a 'deep dive of data' with a paragraph of text, came up with a conclusion that gravity was not real, and asked you to rebut me - that would make me the idiot, not you

but we can move on, as I don't think anyone believes this is true, so there's no point arguing it when there isn't really anyone else on the other side of the issue.
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You’re incapable of being charitable or having an open mind with arguments that disagree with yours. Anti-rationalist. It’s too bad.
 
radiation said:

500s seems high to me, would love to know the breakdown of the top end are driving the avg up

The pps-exempt places that are charging top prices are not trickling those down to faculty salaries where it would drive up the avg. So the real top end people must be doing crazy volume
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Underappreciated. I have said it many times. Rad onc is the NBA. We’ve got a few Lebrons and a boat load of guys on the team getting league minimum wage. But the “average” NBA salary implies every NBA player is a multimillionaire. I don’t know what the real picture is, but good luck trying to get MGMA to share their spreadsheets.
 
TheWallnerus said:
Underappreciated. I have said it many times. Rad onc is the NBA. We’ve got a few Lebrons and a boat load of guys on the team getting league minimum wage. But the “average” NBA salary implies every NBA player is a multimillionaire. I don’t know what the real picture is, but good luck trying to get MGMA to share their spreadsheets.
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I think most of medicine is like this. Ortho does well but the delta between being employed vs private vs private with surgicenter ownership vs private plus surgicenter plus founder that expanded practice throughout a region is going to be huge

Degree of entrepreneurship is going to wildly drive salaries
 
jondunn said:
if you machinate and incorrectly make enough assumptions to come up with an interpretion of the data to come up with a ridiculous statement, then the interpretation is incorrect

I assume I don't need to hold your hand through why it is a ridiculous conclusion.


other than Dr. S, literally no one believes that half make less than 300k.

I know there is no way you believe this, especially given all of the recent discussion regarding median.

but even if you want to totally ignore MGMA or any other data. Each one of us probably knows the salary of 5-10 of our rad onc friends, from new grads to senior people.

how many of us know people that make less than 300? Other than one person I know who works in a partnership where they make less than 300k as an associate but once they are partner will make 800-1 mill, I know no one else making less than 300.

it doesn't pass the smell test and to argue otherwise is asinine.
Click to expand...

About 5 years ago I had offers at academic places that started in the $230 - $275k range. It was expected to get additional incentive/bonus, but that’s not guaranteed of course. I suspect a lot of academic rad oncs saw incentive cut during Covid, so I would not be surprised if a bunch of asst prof rad oncs have made sub 300k…
 
radiadouken said:
About 5 years ago I had offers at academic places that started in the $230 - $275k range. It was expected to get additional incentive/bonus, but that’s not guaranteed of course. I suspect a lot of academic rad oncs saw incentive cut during Covid, so I would not be surprised if a bunch of asst prof rad oncs have made sub 300k…
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I've talked to a thoracic attending within the last year at a well known NCI designated CC in the northeast with a full clinical load making $310k, 3 years out and board certified
 
radiadouken said:
About 5 years ago I had offers at academic places that started in the $230 - $275k range. It was expected to get additional incentive/bonus, but that’s not guaranteed of course. I suspect a lot of academic rad oncs saw incentive cut during Covid, so I would not be surprised if a bunch of asst prof rad oncs have made sub 300k…
Click to expand...
Same experience for me.
 
When I applied a few years back a place in Texas offered me 250k base for 2 years then eat what you kill. I told them that was absurdly low and didn't take the job. They now offer 350k starting.

One of the big academic institutions in my region was offering 250k/yr 5 years ago and now they offer 300k base.

I really don't know anyone making under 300k, either starting salary or now a few years out. I find it hard to believe that 50% of fully employed radoncs make under 300k but if someone has data saying that's the case then maybe I just hang with a privileged crowd.
 
So…

Figuring that a larger proportion than before is now junior - because of the expansion being recent and that many of them take satellite jobs… it is still inconceivable that the MEDIAN (not the MEAN) is lower than the MGMA may suggest ? I am not saying I’m sure of it. What I think is that the median of ALL RadOncs is likely not the same number as the people that respond to the surveys.
 
RSAOaky said:
When I applied a few years back a place in Texas offered me 250k base for 2 years then eat what you kill. I told them that was absurdly low and didn't take the job. They now offer 350k starting.

One of the big academic institutions in my region was offering 250k/yr 5 years ago and now they offer 300k base.

I really don't know anyone making under 300k, either starting salary or now a few years out. I find it hard to believe that 50% of fully employed radoncs make under 300k but if someone has data saying that's the case then maybe I just hang with a privileged crowd.
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Would agree the median for fully employed greater than 300K. How much greater we do not truly know. Dwight Heron had a slide at ACRO that the average rad onc salary is 400K. This seemed to be a “new low” cited number. Where he gets that data one does not know. I have never seen a rad onc salary report (where the median and mean are explicitly separately stated) where the median is not lower than the mean. Salaries in rad onc are in no ways normally distributed.
 
RealSimulD said:
So…

Figuring that a larger proportion than before is now junior - because of the expansion being recent and that many of them take satellite jobs… it is still inconceivable that the MEDIAN (not the MEAN) is lower than the MGMA may suggest ? I am not saying I’m sure of it. What I think is that the median of ALL RadOncs is likely not the same number as the people that respond to the surveys.
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Even we newish grads don't know many, if any making <300. If someone told me the median was 350-375 I'd believe em.
 
Lamount said:
Are we talking median starting salary, or median salary?
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Salary. Given the proportion and number of new grads that have been going into academics for even the last 10 years, I'd believe that number (upper 3s), though I'd also believe 500+. Just not <3.
 
Academic salaries track the AAMC data.
Those data are broken into 4 regions.
Within each region, there is geographic variation.
E.g. universities located in undeserved towns in Northeast pay a bit more than UPenn.
 
Baws said:
I have got to say: it is quite incredible attending Friday grand rounds where spirited data driven debates happen, and then go to a faculty meeting where FASTRO members whine about you all on here on SDN

keep chugging along friends!!
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The power of anonymous sock puppet misanthropes everywhere (who happen to prescribe photons/electrons/protons on the side).
 
Baws said:
I have got to say: it is quite incredible attending Friday grand rounds where spirited data driven debates happen, and then go to a faculty meeting where FASTRO members whine about you all on here on SDN

keep chugging along friends!!
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This gets me the most.

I have sat through the LONGEST meetings and presentations where people debate/disagree about the most obscure points in the literature.

As soon as the "jobs etc" topic comes up, critical thinking switches off: "I don't know what the problem is, that ARRO survey has good numbers and rock solid/perfect methodology. It's those SDN miscreants!"

Behold, witness it in the wild (also highlighting Doximity because...lol):

1648296205365.png


Same guy (from 2014) thinking about lung data:

1648296344501.png

1648296360534.png


Talking about what to treat with a PR:

1648296497592.png
 
elementaryschooleconomics said:
This gets me the most.

I have sat through the LONGEST meetings and presentations where people debate/disagree about the most obscure points in the literature.

As soon as the "jobs etc" topic comes up, critical thinking switches off: "I don't know what the problem is, that ARRO survey has good numbers and rock solid/perfect methodology. It's those SDN miscreants!"

Behold, witness it in the wild (also highlighting Doximity because...lol):

View attachment 352367

Same guy (from 2014) thinking about lung data:

View attachment 352368
View attachment 352369

Talking about what to treat with a PR:

View attachment 352370
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Treat everything the cancer has ever touched. There… fixed it.
 
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