Rad Onc Twitter

  • Thread starter Thread starter deleted1002574
  • Start date Start date
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
have difficulty paying or even obtaining transportation
You can have 15 days of transportation with BID versus 30 or more transport days with QD. Think of the cost savings to the patient; BID can be a lot less financially toxic. Keep them over through lunchtime. Make a little cot in an exam room somewhere. Maybe even offer them a cookie or nice meat selection over lunch:

spam GIF
 
I can respect your point of view.

However.. I feel ethically it is important, geared to the patient/family comprehension level, to have the patient "buy-in" to the selected treatment.

This means presenting, where appropriate (sometimes there really is just one good choice vs no treatment), we review the several options and ranking them (if there say 2 legit choices, I might say "I think A is 70% the way to go, and B 30%, considering the pros and cons of each).

When the patient owns the decision, they own the risks. I believe this helps avoid risks of upset patients and the fallout risk thereto.
 
I just think a lot of shared decision making is BS and it is just us impressing our biases on patients - which I am 100% okay with!
I might say "I think A is 70% the way to go, and B 30%, considering the pros and cons of each).
I don't know why this made me laugh, but it did. In my mind I picture a doc, talking to a patient...

"Would you like this shiny, new treatment I love or this piece of crap, barely reasonable treatment over here which I accept is also an option. Which one, hmm?"
 
I can respect your point of view.

However.. I feel ethically it is important, geared to the patient/family comprehension level, to have the patient "buy-in" to the selected treatment.

This means presenting, where appropriate (sometimes there really is just one good choice vs no treatment), we review the several options and ranking them (if there say 2 legit choices, I might say "I think A is 70% the way to go, and B 30%, considering the pros and cons of each).

When the patient owns the decision, they own the risks. I believe this helps avoid risks of upset patients and the fallout risk thereto.

Also, no disrespect, but I have worked with a number of rad oncs who only do locums. And there is a theme. And that theme is to do the easiest least toxic treatments possible. It is, no doubt, easier to walk into a practice you're only going to be at for a month, and set someone up for daily treatments, rather than sim and start somebody, park them in the lobby or the cafeteria for 6 hours, bail after the first week, then tell social work to figure it out. So I can't really fault you for that as I would probably offer daily more often in those circumstances as well. You want to be invited back, and it's more likely when the next guy comes in and inherits your BID patient, he's going to (inappropriately) trashtalk you, as we have already seen here that people (inappropriately) trashtalk BID. That won't happen with daily.

The problem I have is when locums (not saying this is you) do obviously B.S. treatments like ipsilateral neck for oral tongue or salvage prostate pulling off the bladder immediately and only covering nodes up to S1-S2 if at all in order to impart less toxicity. Patients did great when Dr. So-and-so was here! Yeah, talk to them in a few years. Oh yeah, you won't.
 
Also, no disrespect, but I have worked with a number of rad oncs who only do locums. And there is a theme. And that theme is to do the easiest least toxic treatments possible. It is, no doubt, easier to walk into a practice you're only going to be at for a month, and set someone up for daily treatments, rather than sim and start somebody, park them in the lobby or the cafeteria for 6 hours, bail after the first week, then tell social work to figure it out. So I can't really fault you for that as I would probably offer daily more often in those circumstances as well. You want to be invited back, and it's more likely when the next guy comes in and inherits your BID patient, he's going to (inappropriately) trashtalk you, as we have already seen here that people (inappropriately) trashtalk BID. That won't happen with daily.

The problem I have is when locums (not saying this is you) do obviously B.S. treatments like ipsilateral neck for oral tongue or salvage prostate pulling off the bladder immediately and only covering nodes up to S1-S2 if at all in order to impart less toxicity. Patients did great when Dr. So-and-so was here! Yeah, talk to them in a few years. Oh yeah, you won't.
Oh, hitting on a real irony in rad onc (maybe true in some other specialties too!): you can be a great rad onc, but not seem that great to others who aren't rad oncs.
 
I can respect your point of view.

However.. I feel ethically it is important, geared to the patient/family comprehension level, to have the patient "buy-in" to the selected treatment.

This means presenting, where appropriate (sometimes there really is just one good choice vs no treatment), we review the several options and ranking them (if there say 2 legit choices, I might say "I think A is 70% the way to go, and B 30%, considering the pros and cons of each).

When the patient owns the decision, they own the risks. I believe this helps avoid risks of upset patients and the fallout risk thereto.
I understand that.

But, regionally, there are variations. And between physicians. And between patients.

I would imagine if there are two equivalent choices (and this scenario, I am conceding they are equivalent) that the majority of the variation in treatment choice is going to hinge on the doctor that is treating them. And ... that is fine!

@OTN , @medgator and @elementaryschooleconomics all treat a **** ton of prostate. All 3 are very good at their job and present the options in what they think is a balanced way. And all 3 have populations that "chose" different options. I think OTN has many, many patients choosing 5 fx. ESE and MG have many choosing 44 and 28, but rarely 20 or 5. I don't know who's doing brachy these days, but add them into the mix and there is more variation, but it isn't because her population likes brachy more. It's because she presents it in a way that leads to more patients choosing it. If none of the aforementioned SDN RO hall of famers patients' choose HDR, is it because the option was presented to them the same as if a Beaumont doc presented it or is it the doctor's biases? I think the latter.

And ... as said before ... that is fine!
 
  • Like
Reactions: OTN
I'm afraid for the BID disciples, nothing you say will change their minds. "Make BID great and glorious again"
Feel compelled to pull one from the fog of history. A Drew Turrisi editorial (ACR Journal Advisor; can't give you a link) on this article from around 2003:

This is a nice article reflecting the experience at Duke over the course of 9 years when they used "local best therapy" rather than entering patients on studies. Despite the title, the consistency was to use daily, as opposed to twice daily, radiotherapy to a total dose in a range of 58 - 66 Gy. Half were treated concurrently, and half were treated sequentially. Only 17 of 65 (26%) received prophylactic cranial irradiation. Local failure was 40% at three years. Two year survival was about 30%.
At ASCO, the long awaited mature Mayo study was reported recently (Schild PASCO, abst 2356). Five year survival about 20%, either with the split-course BID (48Gy) or daily to 50.4 Gy, concurrent after three cycles of induction. Not sure how the 50 patients that progressed or were not randomized during the induction therapy were handled either. They said it was similar to the intergroup results, but they shaved 6% off the five year survival. Close, but this is not horseshoes, and this scores no points in my book.
RTOG has reported phase I facts with grade III esophagitis as the endpoint that allows them to fix total time to 5 weeks, and add a second fraction of 1.8 Gy (Komaki PASCO 2539)initially to the last three treatment days, then to the last 5 treatment days and ultimately to the last 11 of 25 treatment days. They report that the maximal tolerated dose was with 9 days of twice daily 1.8Gy, total dose 61.2 Gy. They do not report local control or survival of the group, but suggest a phase II study to do so is either planned or underway. Is grade 3 toxicity really dose limiting? Why 5 weeks?
Many comment that "the optimal dose and fractionation" is either "unknown" or "controversial." The intergroup study establish 1.5 Gy BID to 45 Gy as the standard. In 7 months, it will be 5 years since I published that paper in the New England Journal. Appallingly, no prospective research has been mounted in more than 7 years. Dabbling reports from single institutions or theoretic leaps that the fast growing clonogens emerge only toward the end of treatment have been tested tepidly. A serious study comparing high dose once daily treatment has twice been rejected by bureaucrats in Bethesda. One mor0n asserted that I wanted such a study to serve my personal interest. The fact is that the BID regimen reigns as champion despite puny efforts to knock it off its pedestal with retrospective research. Category I evidence cannot be beaten with institutional reports and retrospective data, particularly when not one has measured up to the multi-institutional study's survival benchmark of 26% at five years.
The local control that I published from that study is clearly WRONG. We scored all partial responders as local failures. However, partial responders survived at five years nearly as frequently as complete responders. This was not true with the patients treated with QD treatment.
Perhaps the magic is time rather than fractionation. Perhaps we need to get the treatment in in 3 or 4 weeks, and that taking longer allows for resistance. Similarly, if delays with "induction" chemotherapy consume patient tolerance and leave resistant cells, larger doses might be necessary for local control, but worse, resistant cells may travel outside the local target for radiotherapy.
The reality is there is not a controversy, there are just intransigent, stubborn, foolish people that do not believe data, and are unwilling to conduct research to prove their point, they want to argue the data away. "It's too toxic." "Patients don't like coming two times a day." "Our machines are too busy." Truth is that if a drug increased survival by 10% at five years and you did not do it, many would claim that your practice did not meet community standards. Not so with BID for small cell.
Cycle 1 concurrent BID treatment is the de facto "best treatment." It is standard. Doing anything else compromises patient survival. These are not new facts published in obscure journals that have not held up with time, these facts are solid as a rock. If you have a better treatment, prove it. Better yet, design a study and let's test it. In the mean time, dreaming up a theory or offering an excuse to risk patient survival seems perverse to me.
 
I understand that.

But, regionally, there are variations. And between physicians. And between patients.

I would imagine if there are two equivalent choices (and this scenario, I am conceding they are equivalent) that the majority of the variation in treatment choice is going to hinge on the doctor that is treating them. And ... that is fine!

@OTN , @medgator and @elementaryschooleconomics all treat a **** ton of prostate. All 3 are very good at their job and present the options in what they think is a balanced way. And all 3 have populations that "chose" different options. I think OTN has many, many patients choosing 5 fx. ESE and MG have many choosing 44 and 28, but rarely 20 or 5. I don't know who's doing brachy these days, but add them into the mix and there is more variation, but it isn't because her population likes brachy more. It's because she presents it in a way that leads to more patients choosing it. If none of the aforementioned SDN RO hall of famers patients' choose HDR, is it because the option was presented to them the same as if a Beaumont doc presented it or is it the doctor's biases? I think the latter.

And ... as said before ... that is fine!
I offer brachy.... But it's done 60+ miles away! I get a taker here and there annually
 
Oh, hitting on a real irony in rad onc (maybe true in some other specialties too!): you can be a great rad onc, but not seem that great to others who aren't rad oncs.

Nobody prepared me for the reality as a bright-eyed bushy-tailed new graduate, that when you walk into a solo practice that was staffed by a boomer then locums for many years, and start trying to do modern, standard of care stuff, working really hard to do it, that everyone would think you were ridiculous, incompetent, and the manager would tell you to your face and then to the CEO "you are the worst doctor we have ever had."

Meanwhile there I was seeing patients for re-evaluation who locums gave definitive RT to the tonsil only without treating the neck and stupid stuff like that. He was great! His patients didn't need feeding tubes! He didn't have to re-sim patients halfway through like you do! He didn't use IV contrast and they did fine. Bladder filling? Are you serious?
 
Nobody prepared me for the reality as a bright-eyed bushy-tailed new graduate, that when you walk into a solo practice that was staffed by a boomer then locums for many years, and start trying to do modern, standard of care stuff, working really hard to do it, that everyone would think you were ridiculous, incompetent, and the manager would tell you to your face and then to the CEO "you are the worst doctor we have ever had."

Meanwhile there I was seeing patients for re-evaluation who locums gave definitive RT to the tonsil only without treating the neck and stupid stuff like that. He was great! His patients didn't need feeding tubes! He didn't have to re-sim patients halfway through like you do! He didn't use IV contrast and they did fine. Bladder filling? Are you serious?
I've walked into "Boomer Legacy Mess" as well.

I believe the root cause is the same issue we always face: academicians. But I should stress I think there's absolutely no ill intent or malice about it.

All RadOnc residency programs are at academic centers. Since there's very little mobility, and almost no one "comes back" to academia after private practice...they genuinely don't know. You can't teach what you don't know.

ASTRO is our primary professional organization and is the "for us, by us" society of academicians. It's an awkward topic to discuss anyway, without ruffling a lot of feathers, especially if you're run by people who haven't experienced the pain.

But: this is going to happen more and more. There are a lot of small practices out there staffed by someone now in their early 60s. Most of those guys (and they are, in fact, guys) graduated in the 1988-1992ish era. There are an awful lot of therapists who have worked with these docs for 30 years and that style is all they know.

Residents, new grads, people looking to move jobs: I would pay close attention to small departments staffed by 1-2 docs who are retiring, and you hear about therapists who worked with them the whole time.

Odds are very good that the environment will be...challenging. Buyer beware.
 
Residents, new grads, people looking to move jobs: I would pay close attention to small departments staffed by 1-2 docs who are retiring, and you hear about therapists who worked with them the whole time.

Odds are very good that the environment will be...challenging. Buyer beware.

I tried to prevent this with a job offer at another place by trying to make it clear upfront that I would be in charge of the department as medical director, would determine the schedule, meetings, basically you know, run my practice. They said oh yeah sure, you're the boss. Then when I was finally ready to sign I got a call "you know, we really thought about it and we're not comfortable with what you said about wanting control over the practice. You don't sound like a team player. It sounds like you don't trust us not to try and control you" Yeah, you know what. I don't trust you. Fool me once...

8123a132c007eab782d6ca9bed517eb3.jpg
 
I tried to prevent this with a job offer at another place by trying to make it clear upfront that I would be in charge of the department as medical director, would determine the schedule, meetings, basically you know, run my practice. They said oh yeah sure, you're the boss. Then when I was finally ready to sign I got a call "you know, we really thought about it and we're not comfortable with what you said about wanting control over the practice. You don't sound like a team player. It sounds like you don't trust us not to try and control you" Yeah, you know what. I don't trust you. Fool me once...

8123a132c007eab782d6ca9bed517eb3.jpg
This is exactly how to say this saying if you have no shame
 
A quick 2 cents about ACTII since it gets mentioned here and there...

Cisplatin is likely equivalent to MMC and is probably less toxic. ACT2 showed them as dead even in terms of disease control outcome and was a huge well done trial. However it was not a non inferiority study so primary endpoints not met.

MMC has much more hematologic toxicity which was confirmed in the trial, but OVERALL rates of toxicity were the same cause everyone gets banged up by the radiation.

In the end, the Brits stuck with MMC because it was cheaper and is a 15 min infusion instead of 4 hours for cis with hydration. It's all about the bottom line for them.

I'd take the cisplatin if it were me.
Completely agree
One of the largest or maybe the largest anal cancer trial and arms are dead even but bc need so many more patients for non inferiority its considered not even

I’ve begged for cisplatin a couple times in frail patients and couldn’t get it.
 
A quick 2 cents about ACTII since it gets mentioned here and there...

Cisplatin is likely equivalent to MMC and is probably less toxic. ACT2 showed them as dead even in terms of disease control outcome and was a huge well done trial. However it was not a non inferiority study so primary endpoints not met.

MMC has much more hematologic toxicity which was confirmed in the trial, but OVERALL rates of toxicity were the same cause everyone gets banged up by the radiation.

In the end, the Brits stuck with MMC because it was cheaper and is a 15 min infusion instead of 4 hours for cis with hydration. It's all about the bottom line for them.

I'd take the cisplatin if it were me.
100%

But because MDACC champions this approach, there is reflexive resistance. Which I get, but in this case it’s not warranted. MMC should go in the dustbin, but I cannot get any doc to give cisplatin .. unless Houston trained
 
I'm not sure I would characterize MMC as "much more" hematologic toxicity, at least based on ACT2: Mitomycin or cisplatin chemoradiation with or without maintenance chemotherapy for treatment of squamous-cell carcinoma of the anus (ACT II): a randomised, phase 3, open-label, 2 × 2 factorial trial - PubMed. Looks like 26% vs 16% hematologic toxicity, but overall toxicity (at least grade 3 or 4) was the same between the two arms at 71% vs 72%.

Given the funding struggles the NHS has, and their 10% survival detriment, on a population basis, stage for stage, across cancer types, compared with the US, I think it's smart of them to say they need to stick with MMC for now in order to try to find ways to spend the limited resources they do have.
 
I'm not sure I would characterize MMC as "much more" hematologic toxicity, at least based on ACT2: Mitomycin or cisplatin chemoradiation with or without maintenance chemotherapy for treatment of squamous-cell carcinoma of the anus (ACT II): a randomised, phase 3, open-label, 2 × 2 factorial trial - PubMed. Looks like 26% vs 16% hematologic toxicity, but overall toxicity (at least grade 3 or 4) was the same between the two arms at 71% vs 72%.

Given the funding struggles the NHS has, and their 10% survival detriment, on a population basis, stage for stage, across cancer types, compared with the US, I think it's smart of them to say they need to stick with MMC for now in order to try to find ways to spend the limited resources they do have.
I think the dermatitis is less, too, and potentially less treatment breaks. That being said, since switched to IMRT, dermatitis not terrible either.

It is confusing tho - b/c there are so many changing variables. ACT studies didn't use IMRT. MDACC didn't use IMRT until the rest of us started and I don't think their IMRT with cisplatin experience is written up (maybe it is, but I have not seen). Also, MDACC volumes much smaller than RTOG and they use 2 Gy rather than 1.8, so all of this is really hard to compare.

Hard to really say. I agree tho, not great to be cancer patient in UK.
 
Nobody prepared me for the reality as a bright-eyed bushy-tailed new graduate, that when you walk into a solo practice that was staffed by a boomer then locums for many years, and start trying to do modern, standard of care stuff, working really hard to do it, that everyone would think you were ridiculous, incompetent, and the manager would tell you to your face and then to the CEO "you are the worst doctor we have ever had."

Meanwhile there I was seeing patients for re-evaluation who locums gave definitive RT to the tonsil only without treating the neck and stupid stuff like that. He was great! His patients didn't need feeding tubes! He didn't have to re-sim patients halfway through like you do! He didn't use IV contrast and they did fine. Bladder filling? Are you serious?
It sounds like no one in this community follows their patients?

Have taken over for boomer or older types, the referring physicians figure out very quickly that RT can be given with less acute and late toxicity without increasing recurrences with modern techniques.

I would also posit that change is hard and sometimes a light touch is needed to avoid being vomited out by the existing staff. I believe the quote is to strive to keep the staff sullen but no mutinous?
 
It sounds like no one in this community follows their patients?

Have taken over for boomer or older types, the referring physicians figure out very quickly that RT can be given with less acute and late toxicity without increasing recurrences with modern techniques.

I would also posit that change is hard and sometimes a light touch is needed to avoid being vomited out by the existing staff. I believe the quote is to strive to keep the staff sullen but no mutinous?

In many of these communities where there are boomers with sweetheart PSAs replaced by revolving locums, there are also no stable med onc/referrings. So nobody has any clue/cares. Admin clueless.
 
It sounds like no one in this community follows their patients?

Have taken over for boomer or older types, the referring physicians figure out very quickly that RT can be given with less acute and late toxicity without increasing recurrences with modern techniques.

I would also posit that change is hard and sometimes a light touch is needed to avoid being vomited out by the existing staff. I believe the quote is to strive to keep the staff sullen but no mutinous?
It really, REALLY depends on the dynamics of a department/hospital.

Similar to how switching a Program Director can drastically change the vibe of a residency program, having just one or two problematic staff in key positions will negate even the lightest of touch.
 
having just one or two problematic staff in key positions will negate even the lightest of touch.
This times 1 billion. You could have the best deal on paper ever with a 90% MGMA job with unlimited PTO but if you have a toxic department manager or physics that wants to fight you on everything, it is completely untenable and you will hate your life. Met multiple people run out of these places by toxic lower level admins who are antagonistic towards the MD that upper level admin refused to do anything about. Bring in a doc who doesn't care because it's easier for everyone and that's deep down what they want.
 
I believe the quote is to strive to keep the staff sullen but no mutinous?
That would be a C+ clinic at best.

The striving should be for a work hard/play hard culture with mutual respect. The staff is encouraged to speak their mind and even question plans. You consistently provide good answers, don't usually but on occasion (when appropriate) change your mind about things and don't castigate people for making mistakes, while encouraging transparency and root cause analysis when they occur.

My rec for any new hire out there. Don't engage admin at all for at least a year. Do your job and establish rapport with the people you work with every day. Do whatever admin asks you to do. Don't compromise on plans or clinic safety but that's it. Your staff should not be afraid of you, but should want to please you.

Then, gradually work to improve from the bottom up.
 
That would be a C+ clinic at best.

The striving should be for a work hard/play hard culture with mutual respect. The staff is encouraged to speak their mind and even question plans. You consistently provide good answers, don't usually but on occasion (when appropriate) change your mind about things and don't castigate people for making mistakes, while encouraging transparency and root cause analysis when they occur.

My rec for any new hire out there. Don't engage admin at all for at least a year. Do your job and establish rapport with the people you work with every day. Do whatever admin asks you to do. Don't compromise on plans or clinic safety but that's it. Your staff should not be afraid of you, but should want to please you.

Then, gradually work to improve from the bottom up.
Takes 1-2 years to play the HR game and get rid of low performers*.

*Unless you're Elon
 
It really, REALLY depends on the dynamics of a department/hospital.

Similar to how switching a Program Director can drastically change the vibe of a residency program, having just one or two problematic staff in key positions will negate even the lightest of touch.

It's almost like people shouldn't take their personal experience with one program, center, and/or patient population and make sweeping generalizations about the country. Almost.
 
Does -anyone- actually do BID for SCLC in the real world community practice?

And, if you do, do you go to the "higher dose" ie beyond 45?

I cannot recall last time I did BID..

Yes, and I offer both 45 BID and 60 BID. I do offer 66 qD as well. I'm (still) team shared decision making.

So you just circle (on the 4D scan) the gross tumor, gross nodes, add a PTV margin and treat all the way through like that? I was trained to add a CTV expansion and include the rest of the nodal station at the levels the CTV expanded to, and I usually do a tad bit of electivsh expansion beyond that. Yes, I could see where toxicity would be a lot better that way.

I do ITV to PTV for all lung cancer primaries. The concept that a region around the gross tumor (contoured in 4D) needs the SAME dose as the gross disease is a foreign one that I am, still, to this day, blown away as to why we consider it. We don't really do it in any other disease site being managed with definitive intent...

For nodes, it's the gross node, maybe the co-planar nodal basin (like you would a H&N) but nothing approaching the 'gus (which is the main tox driver) if it's not necessary (which sometimes it is, say a level 7 LN). I'd worry about 60/40 BID with a level 7 LN that was abutting esophagus.
 
You can also give your LD-SCLC higher fractions. The Canadians do it alot, just give 2.75 Gy/d.
It's the acceleration that counts, not the hyperfractionation.

Proof? They're enrolling but just because it sounds reasonable, wouldn't mess around with anything not standard (45-60 BID or 66 qD)...
LOL, I just dont get why team BID cant accept equivalence! I wish we spent more time focusing on the politics of trial design.

I present them as equal and let people pick. For patients who are interested, I tell the history of the studies and explain how, despite their intense passion, the Bidches have never been able to show that it is better. At my last job, it was the "institutional" standard. So I structured the discussion to favor BID and I just said that in our group it was preferred.

Really, it is better to put your energy into enrolling to LU 005, which lets you do either. It is maybe a little easier to be protocol compliant on dosimetry with BID.

Anecdotally, maybe 30% picked BID. Many just couldn't swing it.
66/33 = 45/30

But 60/40 > 45/30

Therefore 60/40 must > 66/33, right?
Charge per fx and every 5 gets an otv, so not really a difference unless you are giving more than 30 fx qd which you should be per trial in which case qd wins by a smidge.

Edit: 40 fx given bid will win out if you feel comfortable doing that off a European abstract
Full paper out now.... High-dose versus standard-dose twice-daily thoracic radiotherapy for patients with limited stage small-cell lung cancer: an open-label, randomised, phase 2 trial - PubMed
Thanks for the responses. I guess I’m just tired of hearing all the arguments we make in our field when at the end we’re dealing with small cell. Once a day isn’t better or worst then twice a day but in the end, they all die. We continue to argue. If only we used this energy to argue why we need to stop seeing declines in reimbursements and stop expanding residency programs. I know we can have more then one conversation but I swear we are the only field in medicine that can truly justify anything in things that don’t matter… that’s all I’m saying.
?? I mean yeah sure we all die in the end but LS-SCLC cure rates are at least like 20-30%.... not great but not as dismal as say a GBM...
 
Proof? They're enrolling but just because it sounds reasonable, wouldn't mess around with anything not standard (45-60 BID or 66 qD)...

66/33 = 45/30

But 60/40 > 45/30

Therefore 60/40 must > 66/33, right?

Full paper out now.... High-dose versus standard-dose twice-daily thoracic radiotherapy for patients with limited stage small-cell lung cancer: an open-label, randomised, phase 2 trial - PubMed

?? I mean yeah sure we all die in the end but LS-SCLC cure rates are at least like 20-30%.... not great but not as dismal as say a GBM...
Exactly, we all die in the end! Yes, I ran away with the dire prognosis but just wanted to state how much in the weeds we get on data and try to tease out multiple data points that won’t give us a clear answer because the trial designs are flawed and any good trial misses accrual so we are always left with more questions then answers.

Let’s just all agree that no matter what we do, we all suck and go from there!
 
This times 1 billion. You could have the best deal on paper ever with a 90% MGMA job with unlimited PTO but if you have a toxic department manager or physics that wants to fight you on everything, it is completely untenable and you will hate your life. Met multiple people run out of these places by toxic lower level admins who are antagonistic towards the MD that upper level admin refused to do anything about. Bring in a doc who doesn't care because it's easier for everyone and that's deep down what they want.
It all comes down to power. Very rarely an attending radiation oncologist in the USA will have any tangible power to exercise. Ultimately, we are all easily replaceable.
 
Well not all of us. If you can find a location that has a hard time recruiting.. they tend to treat you much better..

MGMA is utter nonsense. Apply the same critical thinking skillz you do when you read a paper. SHOW ME THE DATA. It wasn't that long ago that MGMA was based on, hold your horses.. 23 data points.

Your own survey will give you more accurate and complete information than MGMA could ever dream of obtaining. Their data is meaningless...
 
My rec for any new hire out there. Don't engage admin at all for at least a year. Do your job and establish rapport with the people you work with every day. Do whatever admin asks you to do. Don't compromise on plans or clinic safety but that's it. Your staff should not be afraid of you, but should want to please you.

Then, gradually work to improve from the bottom up.
This is great advice.

The curveball I caught (and I know I'm not alone), is being recruited/starting at a job where you're told they're "excited for fresh perspective", or "we do [technique] here routinely".

Starting my first job, I was cautious about not rocking the boat and tried to be as vanilla as possible. Well. It turns out a treatment technique I had been told was established and routine was neither established nor routine. I discovered this when, maybe 3 months into the job, I was blindsided in chart rounds by a particularly boisterous therapist who found fault with my choices.

Eventually I discovered that many things I was told before starting the job were not true, and the people who told me those things would stay silent.

"Excited for fresh perspective" really meant "excited for you to say or do something which is in line with what we've been doing for 30 years".
 
Of course I do not have any "proof" that hypofractionation is good in LD-SCLC.

However, CONVERT clearly showed that 66/33 was not better than 45/30 bid and one probable reason was that adherence to RT was lower with 66/33 than with 45/1.5 bid. The reason is likely that patients experience AEs of CRT during the later parts of the treatment course. And if you are on beam for 3 weeks only, you are less likely to experience any than if you are on beam, for 6.5 weeks.
So, if I have a patient telling me that he/she cannot come twice per day for RT, I would rather treat him/her in a hypofractionated manner.
I am strong believer that completing the treatment with a "good" dose is imperative for success.
Prescribing 55/2.75 for stage III NSCLC is very common in Canada/UK, so why not use that for SCLC too?
 
If you have leverage, you won't be living in fear. If you really want to know whether a job environment is safe, go do locums first.

That said, you can can always be polite, pleasant and even friendly gosh darn it. You might get invited to things and even get a superb office chair (say two thousand plus?) out of it to save your back. You'll even get some nice invites to dinners n' stuff.

If you're friendly with the hospital C suite, your local team can be handled and problems solved, so try to build rapport. Bonus: If you can make nice with your admin dept director, your life will be much easier. You can do this with 2 out of 3 types.. I've generally found three types of dept admin directors:

-the frustrated career blocked napoleon - these are people who never advanced out of the trenches of admin and are clearly limited in their skill set. Remember in training the #2 who was left to run the clinic and would never advance to chair? Yeah, that schmuck. These power tripping highly opinionated d-bags inflict misery and micromanagement and look! you're here so.. its now inflicted upon you too. the beatings continue until morale improves for your team. Good luck. Especially if turnover has been high, you're next. Your staff will complain to you, even ask you to intervene. It won't happen, because while you sympathize, you're not a tool and can read the tea leaves. You'll be wondering what you did in your former life to deserve this fate. If you're a locums..and are getting paid properly.. keep going..but find your next gig. Soon.

-the disinterested.. uninterested or accepting their fate, focuses on life away from the department. you might not even know if they're there or not. lucky you. nothing gets done of course, you'll have to live with whatever is.. is. Its like purgatory, but with occasional chaos. Nobody knows what to do when things go sideways. Try not to fall asleep at the wheel. There are fate's worse then death they say.. perhaps this will be your test.

-eager beaver.. often youthful (or older person who might be concerned about saving their job) someone who wants to move up or secure their spot. looking to please handlers and even you. amazeballs, things you want to get done, get done. "do you need anything" (something you have never heard before) is not uncommon. count your lucky stars (praise be, I made it ma). Your staff will be happy. You will be happy. You have found nirvana. The pessimist in you will wonder: what could go wrong.. it can't be this good right? Who knows.. maybe all is well. For now.

As always: The golden rule with admin always applies and must never be forgotten. If you have to ask what the golden rule is, you must be new here.
 
Last edited:
View attachment 362238


I am embarrassed to have volunteered for this organization.
How did we get here????

Is this why "no breast IMRT" was removed from Choosing Wisely? We literally went from "you must use 3D tangents or you're Satan" to "protons".

I'm in awe.
 
That is embarrassing from ASTRO.

It's easy to rail against insurers...but it makes me sympathetic to them (and I feel dirty about it) because they may be the only thing stopping people from doing proton APBI for everyone.
 
That is embarrassing from ASTRO.

It's easy to rail against insurers...but it makes me sympathetic to them (and I feel dirty about it) because they may be the only thing stopping people from doing proton APBI for everyone.
Having multiple payers in a marketplace is what protects patients and providers. Given that the discussion between insurance and providers is a b2b discussion, one should expect negotiation to occur. The alternative, such as M4A as proposed by Senators Sanders, allows for precisely zero negotiation by design.

Thanks for posting the ASTRO proton link, definitely NOT Matt. I was going to this am after I saw it, because it's just so tremendously egregious. The fact that it comes from an institution which simultaneously explores cost to patients is, as we all know, just...*chef's kiss*
 
The alternative, such as M4A as proposed by Senators Sanders, allows for precisely zero negotiation by design.
So insurers competition is what is protecting doctors pay? Call me silly but..

Is that what its down to then... misery with the UM's of the world working on behalf of thieving payors or... dealing with a government that incessantly wants to cut doctors pay bleeding us slowly to death.

My oh my what a wonderful world..

I'd be okay with M4A if it has a clause that builds in automatic COL increases for physicians and eliminated 98% of UM except for the worst offenders.
 
Yes, proton therapy. NY Protons have published on this method. Compare it to Florence and you decide.
Imagine a world where the following 'riveting' oral presentations are included in the Diversity Inclusion and Equity section at ASTRO

Risk of motor vehicle accidents and exacerbation of global warming from driving to Manhattan for protons

Worsening air pollution and asthma rates from automobile exhaust from stage 0 to 1 breast cancer patients driving to a neighborhood with a high population of historically disadvantaged minorities.

Wasting public and private funds on protons for early stage breast cancer are linked to increased societal risk of food insecurity, education disparities, child poverty and decreased economic growth
 
If you have leverage, you won't be living in fear. If you really want to know whether a job environment is safe, go do locums first.

That said, you can can always be polite, pleasant and even friendly gosh darn it. You might get invited to things and even get a superb office chair (say two thousand plus?) out of it to save your back. You'll even get some nice invites to dinners n' stuff.

If you're friendly with the hospital C suite, your local team can be handled and problems solved, so try to build rapport. Bonus: If you can make nice with your admin dept director, your life will be much easier. You can do this with 2 out of 3 types.. I've generally found three types of dept admin directors:

-the frustrated career blocked napoleon - these are people who never advanced out of the trenches of admin and are clearly limited in their skill set. Remember in training the #2 who was left to run the clinic and would never advance to chair? Yeah, that schmuck. These power tripping highly opinionated d-bags inflict misery and micromanagement and look! you're here so.. its now inflicted upon you too. the beatings continue until morale improves for your team. Good luck. Especially if turnover has been high, you're next. Your staff will complain to you, even ask you to intervene. It won't happen, because while you sympathize, you're not a tool and can read the tea leaves. You'll be wondering what you did in your former life to deserve this fate. If you're a locums..and are getting paid properly.. keep going..but find your next gig. Soon.

-the disinterested.. uninterested or accepting their fate, focuses on life away from the department. you might not even know if they're there or not. lucky you. nothing gets done of course, you'll have to live with whatever is.. is. Its like purgatory, but with occasional chaos. Nobody knows what to do when things go sideways. Try not to fall asleep at the wheel. There are fate's worse then death they say.. perhaps this will be your test.

-eager beaver.. often youthful (or older person who might be concerned about saving their job) someone who wants to move up or secure their spot. looking to please handlers and even you. amazeballs, things you want to get done, get done. "do you need anything" (something you have never heard before) is not uncommon. count your lucky stars (praise be, I made it ma). Your staff will be happy. You will be happy. You have found nirvana. The pessimist in you will wonder: what could go wrong.. it can't be this good right? Who knows.. maybe all is well. For now.

As always: The golden rule with admin always applies and must never be forgotten. If you have to ask what the golden rule is, you must be new here.
I have worked under 3 department managers and had exactly all three of these, in that order. I pity any new grad that has to start out with number 1.

The department manager is the very first factor I look at when evaluating a new job now.
 
So insurers competition is what is protecting doctors pay? Call me silly but..

Is that what its down to then... misery with the UM's of the world working on behalf of thieving payors or... dealing with a government that incessantly wants to cut doctors pay bleeding us slowly to death.

My oh my what a wonderful world..

I'd be okay with M4A if it has a clause that builds in automatic COL increases for physicians and eliminated 98% of UM except for the worst offenders.

Multiple payers in the marketplace is precisely what is protecting the pay of everyone in the healthcare industry, as providers have somewhere else to turn for reimbursement as the government continues to ratchet down pay.

M4A is specifically designed to create a legal monopsony in order to decrease reimbursement far below what a market would provide. It is very radical, as it bans private practices from offering services in the private market outside M4A, which other countries have not done. COL increases? No chance in the least.
 
The look on her face is perfect. Benefit of protons for partial breast is.... well.... uhhh.....
It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair

"Goddamnit Upton.. how many times..." -Sinclair's mom
 
Top