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Where's Reginald Denny when you need him?
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deleted969641
The NICHD Study of Early Child Care
According to a recent major study of over 1,300 children across a seven-year period, different child care experiences influence the development of young children. Learn about these influences in this summary of a study conducted by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.
There is of course a lot of nuance and the data is manipulated to draw headlines useful to certain organizations, but the conclusions are what you would expect. Higher quality childcare results in better development, maternal attachment. and fewer behavioral problems.
You have to ask what quality and consistency of child care you are getting at your typical day care. We are not talking about private nannies here. You want to dump your kids in $12/hour wage earner daycare and then ship them off to boarding school, fine. Good luck. Sounds like a sure fire way to raise an entitled disrespectful 16 year old with a cocaine habit. But to people like me, we wonder… why even bother having kids in the first place if you plan to not really make them the center of your life? You see them a few hours every day and maybe for a week or two at a time on some fancy vacation a couple of times a year.
and yes I’m judgemental about this. If you make a plan to have kids, manipulate your residency training to make it as convenient as possible, then immediately dump them in daycare and check out from traditional responsibilities of child raising because it impacts your life too much and look for sympathy as a parent, then I am judging you (if I take the time to care, which is unlikely).
You also have to wonder why daycares have cameras now. The fact that there have to be cameras in these institutions should speak enough. Do you put a camera in your home when your mom or husband stays home to take care of your 6 month old?
Agree, and I certainly don't take offense, least of all when someone is trying to be offensive. Just curious about any factual basis for his views, because didn't see any (on my quick google scholar search).
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The NICHD Study of Early Child Care
According to a recent major study of over 1,300 children across a seven-year period, different child care experiences influence the development of young children. Learn about these influences in this summary of a study conducted by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.www.readingrockets.org
There is of course a lot of nuance and the data is manipulated to draw headlines useful to certain organizations, but the conclusions are what you would expect. Higher quality childcare results in better development, maternal attachment. and fewer behavioral problems.
You have to ask what quality and consistency of child care you are getting at your typical day care. We are not talking about private nannies here. You want to dump your kids in $12/hour wage earner daycare and then ship them off to boarding school, fine. Good luck. Sounds like a sure fire way to raise an entitled disrespectful 16 year old with a cocaine habit. But to people like me, we wonder… why even bother having kids in the first place if you plan to not really make them the center of your life? You see them a few hours every day and maybe for a week or two at a time on some fancy vacation a couple of times a year.
and yes I’m judgemental about this. If you make a plan to have kids, manipulate your residency training to make it as convenient as possible, then immediately dump them in daycare and check out from traditional responsibilities of child raising because it impacts your life too much and look for sympathy as a parent, then I am judging you (if I take the time to care, which is unlikely).
You also have to wonder why daycares have cameras now. The fact that there have to be cameras in these institutions should speak enough. Do you put a camera in your home when your mom or husband stays home to take care of your 6 month old?
Ironically, the link you post disputes your own argument:
"In terms of cognitive development, researchers found no benefit for children in exclusive care by their mother. More frequently than not, children in exclusive maternal care scored on cognitive and language measures similarly to children in child care. The few differences that did emerge on the cognitive and language outcomes between children in exclusive maternal care and children in child care showed that high quality care child care provided an advantage and low quality child care a disadvantage in comparison to exclusive maternal care. Among children in care for more than 10 hours per week, those in center care, and to a lesser extent, those in child care homes, performed better on cognitive and language measures than children in other types of care"
More importantly, why do you care? There are a lot of ways to raise a child, and none of them are right. Trust me when I say that you will be better served in life if you can refrain from making sweeping judgements without context. Know how little we truly know and refrain from judgement based on that.
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Save money and buckle up
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So, to be clear Turaco, your position is as follows
if you can't afford to have one parent at home all times for a pre-daycare aged kid, you can eat ****
if you send your kid to daycare, you can also eat **** for being bad parents
if you can afford a nanny, cry me a river if you also want some time to spend home with your kid (aka, eat ****)
if you can't afford a nanny, you can eat **** as well
Yes, people aren't only telling you to STFU because you don't have kids. I'm sure there are many other reasons.
if you can't afford to have one parent at home all times for a pre-daycare aged kid, you can eat ****
if you send your kid to daycare, you can also eat **** for being bad parents
if you can afford a nanny, cry me a river if you also want some time to spend home with your kid (aka, eat ****)
if you can't afford a nanny, you can eat **** as well
Yes, people aren't only telling you to STFU because you don't have kids. I'm sure there are many other reasons.
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deleted969641
Given that you immediately replied within a couple of minutes, you might want to go back and read the entire article and the study data rather than just skimming it looking for a gotcha. Dump your kids in daycare. I don’t care. If i have to explain to you why it’s not preferable to let strangers provide care for your very young children, then I don’t know what to tell you.
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deleted969641
the vitriol and ad hominem against my frankly mainstream opinion and traditional opinion for all of history until about 2 seconds ago (that family members should raise children if at all possible) is hilarious. I’m done with this topic. You all might want to spend some time in the real world and not just holed up in the doctors lounge and country club.
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ok boomer
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Come one, come all!
The wonderful turaco wants to save all of our children from us heathen parents
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I too long for the gilded days when a woman knew her place was in the home, raising my kids.
The NICHD Study of Early Child Care
According to a recent major study of over 1,300 children across a seven-year period, different child care experiences influence the development of young children. Learn about these influences in this summary of a study conducted by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.
There is of course a lot of nuance and the data is manipulated to draw headlines useful to certain organizations, but the conclusions are what you would expect. Higher quality childcare results in better development, maternal attachment. and fewer behavioral problems.
You have to ask what quality and consistency of child care you are getting at your typical day care. We are not talking about private nannies here. You want to dump your kids in $12/hour wage earner daycare and then ship them off to boarding school, fine. Good luck. Sounds like a sure fire way to raise an entitled disrespectful 16 year old with a cocaine habit. But to people like me, we wonder… why even bother having kids in the first place if you plan to not really make them the center of your life? You see them a few hours every day and maybe for a week or two at a time on some fancy vacation a couple of times a year.
and yes I’m judgemental about this. If you make a plan to have kids, manipulate your residency training to make it as convenient as possible, then immediately dump them in daycare and check out from traditional responsibilities of child raising because it impacts your life too much and look for sympathy as a parent, then I am judging you (if I take the time to care, which is unlikely).
You also have to wonder why daycares have cameras now. The fact that there have to be cameras in these institutions should speak enough. Do you put a camera in your home when your mom or husband stays home to take care of your 6 month old?
The problem is, as referenced by @DoctwoB, the study you cited doesn't actually support your *feelings* -and they are feelings. You are entitled to have feelings. You are entitled to share them... just don't be surprised when they aren't treated as fact.
Here are my *feelings* on the matter. There are a lot of ways to raise children well, and a lot of ways to do it poorly. Regardless of if they have are home-schooled, go to daycare, have extended family in the house, or are adopted, the most important thing is to instill in them good values: kindness, generosity, compassion, gratitude, and empathy. For example, I would be disappointed to hear that my son was questioning someone else's upbringing, as that is not how we raised him.
You are talking to a bunch of parents about how to raise children when you admit you don't have any... what is this "real world" of which you speak? LOL
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His "real world" is a mental construct of how he imagines the Antebellum south.
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Just ignore them. SDN is supposed to be a forum where everyone's opinions (as long as they are not insulting a person or group, or spreading blatant falsehoods) are welcome. In reality, it is only accepted/welcome unless one has an opinion much different from mainstream. "All opinions are welcome...unless they're the opposite of what I strongly believe"
For the record, I'm not personally into the conversation above and I have no opinions either way. I am also aware that Turaco and KHE are right-wingers in an otherwise clearly leftist SDN RO forum. I am to the left myself but I certainly respect the opinions of those on the right. Unfortunately, most on this forum do not. For them, it's either their way or the wrong way. I recently learned the hard way from my own recent back-and-forth on this thread, that free speech doesn't really exist on SDN if your viewpoint is strongly contrarian. Likewise, the majority on this forum drove KHE out of the forum for his "unique beliefs", and while I personally did not agree with KHE, I had no problem in hearing out his opinions since that's what half the country believes anyway.
Unfortunately, this forum is an excellent microcosm of what is wrong with our country right now. We are hyper-polarized and cannot stand to hear someone with strong contrarian perspectives, even though everyone is entitled to their own opinion and freedom of speech regardless of whether people agree with it or not. SDN RO behaves very poorly with strongly contrarian opinions, which is why SDN gets (and deserves) constant trolling by the rad onc Twitterati and in publications. Maybe we should actually, for once, take a cold hard look at ourselves instead of telling others to take a cold hard look at themselves.
For those people who think vitriol comes from only one side (the opposite side), regardless of whether you have more liberal views or conservative views, maybe you should wake up to the reality that vitriol is a two-way street. One to spew, one to react. I cannot control what anyone else on this forum says, but I can certainly control my response/reaction to them and not start disparaging others or leveling personal attacks. Though I disagree with many things KHE and Turaco say, I strongly support their right to have their opinions and their right to state them without the SDN Gestapo coming after them by subjectively and indeterminately calling it "disrespectful" or "inflammatory". The very same goes with the left-wing majority in these forums too- their opinions are just as appreciated and welcomed. That is my contribution to healing the hyper-polarization ravaging our nation and SDN. Are you ready to make the same contribution or will this all fall on deaf ears?
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As many others have commented. You are allowed to have your opinion. As your opinion. Stating I believe that children do best when raised at home and not at daycare is an opinion. Many have it. Many choose to raise their children that way. That's just fine and extremely important to find a partner who agrees with you. When you state your opinion as fact or appeal to an authority: "As proven by XYZ, children do better when raised at home," expect to be challenged if your assertions do not have factual proof.
Similarly, even when stating an opinion, if you state it as an attack on other people "I believe that you are harming your children by sending them to daycare," or "I believe you are a murderer for being pro-life" you can expect them to challenge your opinion, because for some reason people are a little sensitive when you tell them they are harming their children
And guess what: Just as you are entitled to your opinion, we are entitled to an opinion of you based on your opinion. As many seem to forget, freedom of thought and speech is not freedom from consequence for that thought or spoken word.
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drewdog1973
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Thing is, just because you CAN say something, doesn’t mean you should. You certainly have the right, but yah, poor taste will be judged. I still don’t understand why RJ brought into it. I think she’s the polarizing one and her views are harmful rather than helpful, but don’t think she said a single thing about that resident. Predicting her thoughts and casting aspersions about what she may say in the future is dumb.
Agree that hyper polarization is ruinous, but so is hiding behind “free speech” to justify acting like a jerk is too.
Agree that hyper polarization is ruinous, but so is hiding behind “free speech” to justify acting like a jerk is too.
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Literally no one is censoring non-mainstream ideas here.
But, if you have a terrible take based on zero first hand experience, you should be prepared for people to express THEIR free speech all over your dome.
But, if you have a terrible take based on zero first hand experience, you should be prepared for people to express THEIR free speech all over your dome.
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Agree 100% with both. Feel free to have counteropinions or judge as much as you like, as long as those opinions/judgment involves no name-calling or childish nonsense. Everyone on this forum is valued and respected and needs to be treated as such. Including the people with similar opinions and the people with contrarian opinions. Period.
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As an aside - as half of a two physician household with kids, the suggestion that one physician parent can simply “stop working” for a few years to stay home with the kids and then seamlessly return to clinical practice as soon as the kid can go to preschool is a ridiculous one.
Children are not eligible for preschool until around 3 (mostly because being potty trained is frequently a requirement). That’s at least 3 years away from regular clinical practice assuming that you don’t try to have another kid when the first one is still a toddler.
I cannot think of a single state that will reinstate your license after that much time away, even assuming that you can find an employer to hire you. Most states require a “physician re-entry” course that costs between $10,000-$20,000 to participate in.
Suggesting that one parent “step back” to raise kids means that you’re taking a real risk of that parent never practicing medicine again. For people who still have loans and have dedicated decades of their lives to become a physician, this is not an option.
Children are not eligible for preschool until around 3 (mostly because being potty trained is frequently a requirement). That’s at least 3 years away from regular clinical practice assuming that you don’t try to have another kid when the first one is still a toddler.
I cannot think of a single state that will reinstate your license after that much time away, even assuming that you can find an employer to hire you. Most states require a “physician re-entry” course that costs between $10,000-$20,000 to participate in.
Suggesting that one parent “step back” to raise kids means that you’re taking a real risk of that parent never practicing medicine again. For people who still have loans and have dedicated decades of their lives to become a physician, this is not an option.
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Don’t start with the free speech crying
SDN is pretty centrist, I mean there is even a Dare you to Reply board
People aren’t upset that Turaco’s opinions are contrarian
People don’t like either left OR right saying their way is THE only way
Nobody would care if Turaco said, based on my limited experience as the child of someone who gave up their job to raise me, this is what I feel is best
Instead, a non-parent continuously ridiculed or invalidated other parenting strategies in what is obviously a complex topic
oh and if they are gonna call ppl dense, then others may call them a loser 🙂
SDN is pretty centrist, I mean there is even a Dare you to Reply board
People aren’t upset that Turaco’s opinions are contrarian
People don’t like either left OR right saying their way is THE only way
Nobody would care if Turaco said, based on my limited experience as the child of someone who gave up their job to raise me, this is what I feel is best
Instead, a non-parent continuously ridiculed or invalidated other parenting strategies in what is obviously a complex topic
oh and if they are gonna call ppl dense, then others may call them a loser 🙂
drewdog1973
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I didn’t call anyone an incel. Said it was in the style of an incel.
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Agree. Just to clarify. I wasn't actually calling you or Turaco an incel. (drewdog posted as I was writing!) I just thought that your posts at that time were of the ilk of the incel online community (basically viewing every event through the narrative of destructive feminist forces) and that a forceful response was appropriate.
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Reminds me of the politician who said "I don't want to be accused of bringing up my opponents' marital infidelities"
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Don't worry about it. If it makes you both feel better, I hereby call myself an incel - and it may be more acceptable to you both then. Unlike most people on SDN (including some above who explicitly say that they judge others), I am not judgmental. Life is short. Time to concentrate on other things.
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How's this for ignorant? I have no idea what an incel is.
I must be watching the wrong news.
I must be watching the wrong news.
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I must admit folks i had no idea what an incel is and i had to look it up. Never had an issue getting tail in the swamp so these issues are completely foreign to me.
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I for one am tired of the current snowflake cultures where the libs get triggered the second someone challenges their opinions.
Now excuse me while I complain about free speech (on a privately run website) and get so triggered I declare I am leaving this topic.
Now excuse me while I complain about free speech (on a privately run website) and get so triggered I declare I am leaving this topic.
drewdog1973
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Seriously. Own the libs! But when you get owned, cry foul!
drewdog1973
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Thank you. Now we don’t have to beat around the bush and it isn’t considered name calling.
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Also in a similar boat. Took time off between jobs to help out at home. I looked into taking a longer period of time off. Hospital credentialing applications basically will ask you to explain away any absense away from practice of greater than 4-6 weeks for any reason.
One of us definitely has a lighter practice clinically for that reason, but there's never been an expectation for either of us to quit practicing completely for childcare. That's what having good family support and a damn good nanny is for
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I thought Incel was the Linux version of Microsoft Excel. Turns out, incel just means someone who won't be out motorboating around the lake this weekend.
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You mean, an incel is the person who made the Linux version of excel?
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yeah prob. Or the type of guy who’d ask a girl to see her Ubuntu.
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After this quote, can't tell whether I want this convo to stop or keep going.
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deleted969641
I'm not sure what else you all want. I came here, stated my opinion, admitted my biases, was asked for evidence, provided evidence and admitted there was nuance to it and there will never been a randomized trial of daycare vs. no daycare, was accused of ignoring nuance by people skimming for gotchas, then was called every name in the book and basically implied that I think women only belong in the kitchen and should not be educated even though I repeatedly said father, grandparent, whoever can stay at home. Whoever makes the most money goes and works for the family. A family is an economic unit among other things. It's not hard to figure out who can bring home the most cheese to feed the hungry rad onc rat children.
With regards to "real world," I mean the world where the combined household income is $100k or less (and families still somehow manage to keep a parent at home most of the time like literally everybody I grew up with), not $1,000k or more. But thank you for your attempt at telling people what I mean (or what you want me to mean). Strawman gonna strawman.
I actually agree with you strongly on some of these points. The American system whereby doctors have to explain a month long gap is absurd. It's nobody's business. Maybe I got tired and went surfing on the moon. Who cares. If I can prove I can do my job. The situation is that it is just an annoying hoop to jump through though. And don't even get me started on the situation where an MD wants to get psych help or help with alcohol or addiction. We basically cannot and hence you have all the MDs hiding substance abuse problems, many of whom really want help with it but know they can't leave a paper trail for that.
I will (edit) respectfully disagree on the other points though. It is not hard AT ALL to maintain a medical license once you already have it (I have multiple licenses in states I no longer practice in that I keep active). You do some CME and fill out a form every year. It's not hard to pick up occasional locums gigs if you want to stay in the game a little bit. In fact, I would even say its easy especially in literally any other field besides rad onc. I, and imagine everyone, have met countless female physicians who cut back to 1-2 days a week to raise kids or even stopped working, who were then able to go back to full time work. Obviously some fields are more conducive to this than others. I don't think that women who greatly value family building more than anything else in life are overwhelming choosing spine surgery. You are not going to get much sympathy as a dual physician household with clearly top 1% income complaining of thinks like student debt. A dual physician household should have that debt quickly managed without any issue at all or something has gone terribly, terribly wrong like your spouse loses 10k at the track every week or something or you are living stupidly outside of your means.
Human beings are funny things. Despite what you all might believe, I actually believe in evolution. A giraffe plops out a baby giraffe and it gets up and FRICKIN WALKS immediately. A human baby is totally useless and dependent on the MOTHER for quite a while. These are facts of nature and how we evolved, don't shoot the messenger.
Um.... what? Ok...
I do not care if you all call incel, misogynist, loser, whatever. I appreciate everyone to come and say whatever. Open non-censured debate is good. Smart people use it to think and reconsider their opinions rather than just gobbling up dogma and trying to lump everyone into categories (If you think X or don't support Y, you must be a trump supporter, therefore byeeee). You want to make an a-word of yourself calling names then go right ahead. I'm debating whether to continue posting here though as this doesn't seem like a good use of my time. But I did use all this to think and learn something. I am now more sure than ever that I do not want to have children. I can't imagine voluntarily wading into the waters of all this nonsense regarding child raising these days. If it happens, the so be it I'll do the god damn best i can but am sure it will take many years off my life!
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Turaco is very black and white with his morals and viewpoints (also had strong views on evicore), which is cool in a society where everyone is tip toeing on egg shells with viewpoints and making sure to include all shades of grey in their opinion (myself included). Keep posting Turaco!
RTOGsaveRadonc
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please stop derailing this thread turaco, I'm asking just for discussion purposes (not to be antagonistic)
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It's just not a good look-- who had the brilliant idea to initiate a lecture on "how to live a meaningful life?" This isn't Elie Wiesel or Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If it's the speaker, then "narcissist" is all that comes to mind, unfortunately.
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Does not comport with wasting your life in most academic endeavors in this field, which are 90+% bs.
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I’ll give @Dan Spratt benefit of the doubt. Maybe he’ll say there are more important things in life than being an academic such as God, family, and friends. But on another note, did you see the @jimmyfallon and @jimmykimmel ?! Whoa
Let’s not forget @billgates and @jeffreybezos as well - the whole thing is, frankly, next-level funny if you ask me. Every now and then I get pretty happy I’m a member of Gen X.
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Don’t worry about tuition. Don’t worry about fractionation. Worry about your patients- advice from the 2 million dollar sage of Long Island.
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More like he will say there are more important things than finding a job, like uh . . . WiFi, I guess?
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Right on. Regardless of whose idea it was, Dan Spratt's biggest fan is Dan Spratt. So I'm sure he's absolutely giddy at teaching the whole world how to live, act, behave, and think.
